By grace alone through faith alone - why this is true and we should not fight this. Advice from Pope Benedict

[JonNC]

Looking to Christ is something you do. It’s a work.
Entrusting yourself to Christ is something you do. It’s a work.
Being united to Christ is something you do. It’s a work.
Being conformed to Christ is something you do. It’s a work.

Faith IS a work, it’s something you do.

But it’s not a work of the Law.

Faith is not a work. It is a gift of grace that we neither work for nor earn.

 

[Wesrock]

Faith is not a work. It is a gift of grace that we neither work for nor earn.

It’s something that man must respond to. If it’s accepted, it is of course first and foremost a gift, but if it’s accepted (only possible to accept if it’s given) it is by man’s voluntary and free response to accept it as an exercise of his own will.

 

[JonNC]

It’s something that man must respond to. If it’s accepted, it is of course first and foremost a gift, but if it’s accepted (only possible to accept if it’s given) it is by man’s voluntary and free response to accept it as an exercise of his own will.

It must be received. Once received, one can work to reject it. But faith itself is not a work

 

[neophyte]

It must be received. Once received, one can work to reject it. But faith itself is not a work

You are mistaken. Faith is an action that one takes, it’s something you do. Something that you do is, by definition, a work.

Faith is also a gift of grace - it is not possible for us to do it absent the grace of God. But those two things are not contradictory. Faith is both a gift of grace, and a work that we do.

 

[Wesrock]

It must be received. Once received, one can work to reject it. But faith itself is not a work

I don’t know if I’d properly call it a “work”, either, but still not sure about your phrasing. We can work to reject it, but not in accepting?

In either case, the free and voluntary response of man’s will plays a role. Man cannot have faith without God. Man cannot do good works without God. But in both cases, it’s an active *response * (not initiator) of man’s free will to assent to either. Man is “doing” when he assents to faith, which is a gift from God.

You are a former Lutheran, now Anglican, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we disagree on this point. Do Anglicans accept Luther’s/Calvin’s views on justification? Forgive my ignorance.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Ok guys, sorry for the late response. I skipped over some of your questions because I feel the responses I provided below are sufficient for explaining my position, both to answer these questions and the ones I skipped over as well. God bless.

Sanctification is also instantaneous. Why do you think Paul says, “You WERE washed, you WERE sanctified?”

Not sure what you getting at or how your interpreting this. You do not think that a person automatically becomes perfectly mature in their Christian walk the moment they are justified, do you? Certainly, our justification entails a washing and a sanctifying. We are not only declared just, but God makes our souls ontologically just in the nature of their being as well. I think that is probably what St. Paul is talking about, along with the fact of our regeneration (regeneration may be the primary thing he has in mind, I think).

Taylor, I’m sure you remember the Parable of the Talents.

The master gives one of his servants 5 talents, the other 2, and the last 1, before leaving and going on a journey. The servant with five talents trades with them and doubles them, as does the servant with two. But the servant with one goes and buries the talent in a hole.

When the master returns, he praises the servants who doubled their talents.

We are the servants in the parable. We do nothing to merit the grace God has given us. However, if we do not cooperate with His grace and bear fruit, He will cast us out on the last day.

Yes. A valuable parable. What is the difference between those who multiply their talents and the one who does not? Of course, there is the external action. And this external action is necessary as long as we have the ability to fulfil it. But what truly makes the difference is the internal state. Those who multiply the talents are those hold their master in their hearts. The one who does not is the one who harbors negative feelings about him. The external actions are fruits of the inward disposition. Those who have the proper inward disposition will not be cast out.

Fair enough.

But, what do you mean when “we give Him our hearts in faith”?

To me, giving Him our hearts should mean that we follow Him, and that we follow His Law. Now, would following His Law be sometimes described as “works”?

Yes, giving Christ our hearts inevitably, inextricably leads to obeying Christ. “Those who love my obey My commandments.” What is required is the internal state – the external actions are the fruit of it.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

TaylorDonBarret:
Actually Baptism is the “gateway” to getting sanctifying grace.

I wasn’t aware of this TaylorDonBarret. Could you give me a citation so I can read it in context? (Thanks in advance)

I notice you DIDN’T say . . . . (baptism of desire at moment of love, not moment of faith.)

So you are saying MORE than “faith” is necessary here? (I’m not necessarily disagreeing with this TaylorDonBarret. But “faith” and “love” can be natural virtues AND also be supernatural virtues too. I think a little more clarification is in order here by you as I am not quite sure what you mean here).

Baptism is the gateway to getting sanctifying grace. Yes. But it is not the ONLY gateway. But before providing you with the information about Baptism of Desire, let me first address your question about the priority of love over (or, in addition to) faith. The Baptism of desire occurs when a person comes to love Christ more than they love their sin (as will be shown below). Now, I would posit that the moment a person truly believes IN THEIR HEART, it is at that moment that they are brought by The Holy Spirit to loving Christ more than they love their sin. And so within this context, I would certainly affirm that Baptism of Desire (the Baptism of The Holy Spirit) occurs at the moment of sincere, heart-felt faith in Christ. Now, for the information on Baptism of Desire, taken from New Advent:

*“The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin. The “baptism of the Holy Ghost” is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book “De Rebaptismate”. The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John 3), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John 14): “He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.” And again: “If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.” Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins. This doctrine is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that contrition is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles man to God, before the Sacrament of Penance is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the necessity of baptism, it says that men can not obtain original justice “except by the washing of regeneration or its desire” (voto). The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius.

We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: “Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it.” St. Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, IV.22) and St. Bernard (Ep. lxxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire. If it be said that this doctrine contradicts the universal law of baptism made by Christ (John 3), the answer is that the lawgiver has made an exception (John 14) in favor of those who have the baptism of desire. Neither would it be a consequence of this doctrine that a person justified by the baptism of desire would thereby be dispensed from seeking after the baptism of water when the latter became a possibility. For, as has already been explained the baptismus flaminis contains the votum of receiving the baptismus aquæ. It is true that some of the Fathers of the Church arraign severely those who content themselves with the desire of receiving the sacrament of regeneration, but they are speaking of catechumens who of their own accord delay the reception of baptism from unpraiseworthy motives. Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.”*

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#iv

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

I am a bit hesitant to add to what I already posted because my earnest desire is for you to come to understand that it is Catholic teaching that the Baptism of Desire - the Baptism of The Holy Spirit - occurs instantly the moment a person loves Jesus. After you understand that, then I think everything else will come into line.

 

[James248]

Baptism is the gateway to getting sanctifying grace. Yes. But it is not the ONLY gateway. But before providing you with the information about Baptism of Desire, let me first address your question about the priority of love over (or, in addition to) faith. The Baptism of desire occurs when a person comes to love Christ more than they love their sin (as will be shown below). Now, I would posit that the moment a person truly believes IN THEIR HEART, it is at that moment that they are brought by The Holy Spirit to loving Christ more than they love their sin. And so within this context, I would certainly affirm that Baptism of Desire (the Baptism of The Holy Spirit) occurs at the moment of sincere, heart-felt faith in Christ. Now, for the information on Baptism of Desire, taken from New Advent:

*“The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin. The “baptism of the Holy Ghost” is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book “De Rebaptismate”. The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John 3), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John 14): “He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.” And again: “If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.” Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins. This doctrine is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that contrition is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles man to God, before the Sacrament of Penance is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the necessity of baptism, it says that men can not obtain original justice “except by the washing of regeneration or its desire” (voto). The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius.

We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: “Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it.” St. Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, IV.22) and St. Bernard (Ep. lxxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire. If it be said that this doctrine contradicts the universal law of baptism made by Christ (John 3), the answer is that the lawgiver has made an exception (John 14) in favor of those who have the baptism of desire. Neither would it be a consequence of this doctrine that a person justified by the baptism of desire would thereby be dispensed from seeking after the baptism of water when the latter became a possibility. For, as has already been explained the baptismus flaminis contains the votum of receiving the baptismus aquæ. It is true that some of the Fathers of the Church arraign severely those who content themselves with the desire of receiving the sacrament of regeneration, but they are speaking of catechumens who of their own accord delay the reception of baptism from unpraiseworthy motives. Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.”*

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#iv

Baptism of desire is baptism for those who can’t get baptized. There’s no difference.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Baptism of desire is baptism for those who can’t get baptized. There’s no difference.

Not necessarily. A couple things need to be mentioned. Baptism of Desire happens the moment a person has “perfect contrition” - and this happens regardless whether they are able to get Water Baptized immediately afterwards. Nonetheless, Baptism of Desire, while providing The Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, regeneration, adoption, sanctifying grace, and other benefits, is still not a Sacrament. It does not supply the indelible mark on the soul nor does it allow for the other Sacraments. So Water Baptism is still necessary and beneficial even after receiving the Baptism of Desire. But the main point is that justification, regeneration, adoption, all these things, are accomplished instantaneously at the moment a person comes to love Jesus. No need for any Sacrament or for any good works. The only “work” required is the proper internal disposition - to love Jesus, to have Jesus in your heart.

 

[James248]

Ok guys, sorry for the late response. I skipped over some of your questions because I feel the responses I provided below are sufficient for explaining my position, both to answer these questions and the ones I skipped over as well. God bless.

Not sure what you getting at or how your interpreting this. You do not think that a person automatically becomes perfectly mature in their Christian walk the moment they are justified, do you? Certainly, our justification entails a washing and a sanctifying. We are not only declared just, but God makes our souls ontologically just in the nature of their being as well. I think that is probably what St. Paul is talking about, along with the fact of our regeneration (regeneration may be the primary thing he has in mind, I think).

If a person dies right after baptism, they go straight to heaven.

1. 
   

   Yes. A valuable parable. What is the difference between those who multiply their talents and the one who does not? Of course, there is the external action. And this external action is necessary as long as we have the ability to fulfil it. But what truly makes the difference is the internal state. Those who multiply the talents are those hold their master in their hearts. The one who does not is the one who harbors negative feelings about him. The external actions are fruits of the inward disposition. Those who have the proper inward disposition will not be cast out.

   No one’s disputing that. What we’re disputing is your statement that God doesn’t require good works from us.
   
   Jesus says “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. but only he who does the will of My Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”
   

   Yes, giving Christ our hearts inevitably, inextricably leads to obeying Christ. “Those who love my obey My commandments.” What is required is the internal state – the external actions are the fruit of it.

   He requires BOTH.
   
   JOHN 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[James248]

Not necessarily. A couple things need to be mentioned. Baptism of Desire happens the moment a person has “perfect contrition” - and this happens regardless whether they are able to get Water Baptized immediately afterwards. Nonetheless, Baptism of Desire, while providing The Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, regeneration, adoption, sanctifying grace, and other benefits, is still not a Sacrament. It does not supply the indelible mark on the soul nor does it allow for the other Sacraments. So Water Baptism is still necessary and beneficial even after receiving the Baptism of Desire. But the main point is that justification, regeneration, adoption, all these things, are accomplished instantaneously at the moment a person comes to love Jesus. No need for any Sacrament or for any good works. The only “work” required is the proper internal disposition - to love Jesus, to have Jesus in your heart.

Baptism of Desire only is applicable if a person dies before he is baptized; baptism of desire provides the same graces a person would normally receive if he received baptism.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

James, if God requires the external behaviors that flow from the internal disposition, then death bed conversions are impossible. But we very well know that God judges the heart and not the outward appearance. What God requires is the internal disposition. The external behaviors are necessary if the person has the ability to do them, but they are not what gets the person in the door. They are what proves the person is remaining inside (and growing closer).

Your statement on Baptism of Desire is simply wrong. Please re-read the passage I quoted from New Advent. Baptism of Desire applies automatically the very moment a person comes to perfect contrition. And it does not supply all of the same graces as normal baptism. It is not a Sacrament and it does not imprint the indelible mark on the soul.

 

[James248]

James, if God requires the external behaviors that flow from the internal disposition, then death bed conversions are impossible. But we very well know that God judges the heart and not the outward appearance. What God requires is the internal disposition. The external behaviors are necessary if the person has the ability to do them, but they are not what gets the person in the door. They are what proves the person is remaining inside (and growing closer).

You’re making a contradiction when that contradiction doesn’t even exist. Those who have death bed conversions do good works. The good thief is a perfect example of this.

Your statement on Baptism of Desire is simply wrong. Please re-read the passage I quoted from New Advent. Baptism of Desire applies automatically the very moment a person comes to perfect contrition. And it does not supply all of the same graces as normal baptism. It is not a Sacrament and it does not imprint the indelible mark on the soul.

I was talking about when a person dies before they can get baptized. Reread my post.

 

[tgGodsway]

TaylorDonBarret:

It CAN be true. (But it can be false too).

WHY?

Because “faith” can be used in the sense of “fidelity”. This is true (so you would not oppose it).

But “faith” can also be used in a mere intellectual ascent too. This is false concerning justification (so you would oppose that).

I don’t like the phrase justification by “faith alone” because it demands constant clarification because the actual phrase is un-Biblical (the Bible never teaches we are justified by faith alone and does teach against such notions).

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

I agree that the term “faith alone” is not biblical, but the concept is. The idea is that through the operation of faith in the message of Christ, one is born of God. 1st. Peter 1:23
This spiritual birth is the entrance to eternal life. John 3:16

 

[tgGodsway]

I agree that the term “faith alone” is not biblical, but the concept is. The idea is that through the operation of faith in the message of Christ, one is born of God. 1st. Peter 1:23
This spiritual birth is the entrance to eternal life. John 3:16

Intellectual assent is a concept outside of scripture. It does not exist as a spiritual factor but an invention by pop-psychologist to infer that one can believe mentally but not in any other way. No such type of belief is recognized by our savior.

 

[James248]

I agree that the term “faith alone” is not biblical, but the concept is. The idea is that through the operation of faith in the message of Christ, one is born of God. 1st. Peter 1:23
This spiritual birth is the entrance to eternal life. John 3:16

Then how the one verse in the Bible that puts faith alone in a sentence condemns that understanding?

James 2:24
See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[tgGodsway]

Then how the one verse in the Bible that puts faith alone in a sentence condemns that understanding?

James 2:24
See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Yeah… please don’t make the mistake that so many make about this passage. Let’s not assume that James is talking about eternal life until, or unless he says so. Certainly James was not in contradiction to Paul’s writings when he said a man is justified by works. The original question is in verse 14. "What good is it my brothers if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? Save him from what? … Is James talking about eternal life in this passage, or temporal? If eternal, then I would say we have a huge contradiction between Rom. 3:20,24 and James 2:14,21 I would say no, not eternal life, for one very good reason, he doesn’t say so. It’s that simple. Let’s use face-value common sense interpretation here. His two examples of what salvation looks like concerning Abraham’s offering, and Rehab’s deliverance , are all temporal salvations=deliverances. His larger theme begins in chapter 1 verse 21 that says, "Put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls=temporal life. The saving of the soul has traditionally meant saving from hell. But biblically it never has. The word Soul from it’s Greek counterpart simply means LIFE, implying temporal life unless there is a qualifying word in front of it such as “eternal.” James instructed his saved audience to consume God’s word in order to deliver their very lives from destruction over to a good quality of life. In addition: Abraham could not be called a friend of God until his faith matured to the place that he lived for God alone by offering his son. In this he was justified, but not before God’s eyes. see Rom. 4:2 His justification from God is found in Genesis 15:6. His act that justified him before men was in Gen.22 at the offering of his only son. This one act gave him credibility in three world religions to this day.

This passage is always a huge bummer for so many. But it doesn’t have to be. The good news is our salvation is secure by grace through faith apart from our human merit. As a Catholic Christian, I can appreciate that.

 

[JonNC]

Intellectual assent is a concept outside of scripture. It does not exist as a spiritual factor but an invention by pop-psychologist to infer that one can believe mentally but not in any other way. No such type of belief is recognized by our savior.

I think intellectual assent is implied in James 2:19
19You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Simple belief that lacks love and hope is intellectual assent.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t know if I’d properly call it a “work”, either, but still not sure about your phrasing. We can work to reject it, but not in accepting?

In either case, the free and voluntary response of man’s will plays a role. Man cannot have faith without God. Man cannot do good works without God. But in both cases, it’s an active *response * (not initiator) of man’s free will to assent to either. Man is “doing” when he assents to faith, which is a gift from God.

You are a former Lutheran, now Anglican, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we disagree on this point. Do Anglicans accept Luther’s/Calvin’s views on justification? Forgive my ignorance.

It is not a in receiving. I don’t care for the term accepting. It is used in some Protestant circles and seems to contradict the fact that we are incapable of coming to faith by our own means. Again, faith comes by hearing. It also comes in Baptism. The HS stirs up faith in us.
Free will allows that we can reject grace.

Anglicans: motley. I would never seek to speak in general terms about Anglicans, though I would never have joined the APA if there had been a hint of Calvinism.