"By their fruit, you will recognize them."

[RebeccaJ]

The ponzi schemes work in UT for the very reason the criminals running them are Mormon. They use the trust and tight ties that Mormons have for each other, with fake stories of how bishop so-and-so, or the stake pres. or a general authority, or their favorite high priest in the ward, are taking advantage of the great deal they are offering. Their victims are almost exclusively, LDS. And yes, every time one of these show up in a UT newspaper, the Mormon church puts out a press release telling people to be ware. But, Mormons in their trust in their own people’s “niceness”, fall for these things over and over.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think part of the reason of all these things is that the Christian Church in general in the past several decades has lost its sense of mission to the world. It has succumbed to the political correctness dogma, tried to act ‘just nice’, and hasn’t taken active stances on anything anymore. It is afraid. Mormonism, on the other hand, still clings aggressively to the notion that it is the restored Gospel, and therefore it is the mission of all Mormons to spread the faith. Very commendable. We no longer have that zeal.

We need a revival. Desparetely.

Religion is nothing more, to a lot of people of all faiths, than a competitive activity to all the other activities. And/or, people use religion as Nietzsche described “bad religion”, as a crutch, as a way to block themselves out of the world, becoming blind and indifferent in a “zealous” sort of fashion. Or, the ever present lapsed Christian saying, “I want to teach my children values”…reducing faith to an empty moralism.

Mormonism may cling to their “restored gospel”, but I see and know plenty of Mormons who are indifferent to their faith. The thousands of Mormons missionaries are trained to behave and act and proselytize. It is their “job” for two years. But, speak to any RM and there’s plenty of indifference, rule-breaking, and being sent home early, going on under the hood.

The Mormon hierarchy has addressed this by “raising the bar”, that is, not just allowing every boy to go on a mission, no matter their disposition towards it. But, this does nothing to address the underlying malaise of indifference that is affecting the whole world.

There is also, as we have seen, the striving by Mormonism to appear more mainstream. The sort of teachings that are denied here as opinion, were once taught as something unique and wonderful to the “restored gospel”. I now see Mormons who remember these teachings, believe them still, lamenting a religion they believed in whole heartedly (and still do) as no longer existing…while it may bring in new converts for the LDS church, it is alienating people within. I can’t see anything but indifference to this, coming from the Mormon hierarchy, and its ardent followers.

 

[KathleenGee]

Regarding the ponzi schemes, they come up here…veiled as multiple marketing…you see it all the time…the bottom do all the work, get minimal return…and alot going to the upper line.

I also went to one about how to write grants…and the fellow was from Utah, beautiful wife and family, nice house and had a good life…All around me were many poor and under educated people. The fellow spent a long time speaking about life and attitude. A minority couple whispered to me that he was trying to give these people hope…

I have a client whose family member made a large sum of money with the government by grant writing…and I went on line to do research…and it is alot harder than people think.

 

[KathleenGee]

Fabius,

We did do a thread on the great apostasy…it continues to get hits, about 24,000 plus now…it must be past page 38 now.

There is the issue of documented history vs finding the back up of beliefs with modern day prophets. There is all kind of soil, and it is a mystery in life why people will be this and not that and vice versa.

The only way people can begin to renew is to simply renounce themselves and this world.

It is the world that has really overcome everything, especially through technology and communications. And most of the time the subject matter is distractions or vice-- at the expense of the parents. The secular voice is very militant in individual rights and mistreatment, but things are blown out of proportion and kids end up being displaced by their parents.

The large banks were targeting teens just turning 18 to get credit cards without their permission or guidance. I had 3 very young adults, and was collecting letters telling them they were approved for cards, and sent the whole bunch back. One of those banks was part of the big bank bail out.

Then you have the movies and the university leftists indoctrinating our kids that religion caused more wars than any other, with a complete black out upon the millions and millions of people who were slaughtered under communism. I remember seeing the films and hearing stories of Soviet children turning their parents over because they had a Bible in their home, and then having the kids paraded down the street for being heroes.

We have to pray for new vocations and leaders and become more heroic ourselves. But alot of people who need Christ also have alot of things to discard and it takes time. The Holy Spirit can do great things, however.

A week before the tsunami in Japan, I had this most intense sense…to be ready, to pray constantly, to forgive…and be united with Christ at all times…because we do not know the day in which He will return.

And His return could mean just for me and my family, or it could mean just for my region…or our country, as well as the world. And I read this am that people who pray constantly…keeping the Lord before you is a form of prayer, that you will have no pain in transition from this life to the next.

I was raised on the message of Fatima by our sisters in grade school…to pray the rosary, do penance, and pray for the conversion of Russia…and that it has been said elsewhere, that some day Russia could be of great help to the world…she seems to be in the middle between east and west.

John Paul II said in response to terrorism, that he held up his rosary beads and said praying the rosary and doing penance is the only solution.

So in response, praying with Mary to crush the head of the serpent using the rosary and fasting and doing alms for conversion of sinners is the other part to praying for new vocations and new leaders…who will bear good fruit.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Regarding the ponzi schemes, they come up here…veiled as multiple marketing…

Yes Kathleen, UT is the multi-marketing capital of the world. I worked for a man for a few years, he was an executive in a LDS-owned business. When they fired him, he went to work for one of these UT multi-marketing businesses. Recently, he and three other top executives all quit at the same time, and are now starting up their own multi-level marketing company. He says he is making millions. He is an extremely devout LDS, once wanted to give me a blessing at work, him seeing it as a way to help through a large a difficult project we were working on. He was very kind and generous, a father of a lot of children, all the right Mormon credentials…but that guy could scheme his way out of, or into, anything! He is one of the reasons I quit working there. I felt like a used pawn, by him and his executive co-workers (all Mormons)…not “nice” people at all. Which has me remembering all the times Mormons have tried to manipulate me and others with their “niceness”. I cut all ties to them, completely, but I could have stayed in their game…if I could have stomached it…oh the stories I could tell…but perhaps another day. BYU cranks out business majors, Romney being one…the BYU business alumni are tight, and “nice”, clean cut, but I worked in that world with them for over 20 years. They are very plugged in to the Mormon hierarchy. I don’t trust that bunch, at all, and it is a fool who does.

It is such a toxic thing, to call “nice”. Anyway, Mormons who are in this nice multi-marketing game are very careful to follow the letter of the law, to treat people kind and generously, to show all the right LDS credentials, but they have no ethics whatsoever.

 

[KathleenGee]

I had an email forwarded to me by one of them…and she appeared to be the most tight lip…she referred to underlings who do all the work as the ‘doggies’. But so much into her kids and providing for them and being a faithful spouse. I liked her to a certain degree, could pick up her own devotion to principles of her faith regarding the permanency of marriage…

But when it comes to making money in MLM’s, the lower levels do indeed all the work. I just can’t use people in that way. And oftentimes, their products are produced by even less than doggies.

 

[Stepson]

I am one of those who would like meatless Friday’s to return, to have our children confirmed at a younger age like before, to have more Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, to kneeling for communion, and more Holy Days of obligation.

Can you, as a family, still do meatless Friday year round or is it only during Lent with the understanding that you are supposed to do it as a congregation?

 

[KathleenGee]

We are required to abstain from meat during Lent.

We also have Ember Days where the archbishop is exhorting us to fast and pray for abuse victims.

There are households who are already abstaining from meat on all Fridays.

We need structure.

 

[PJM]

=Mort Alz. A wonderful instruction from Our Lord, Jesus!

I have been raised Protestant, but I am gratefully exploring Catholicism. (I may find that it is my home). But, one thing I notice on these forums is that the Catholic answer to just about everything satisfies my soul except for its response to Mormonism. It seems Catholics just don’t know what to DO with Mormons. I’ve also heard statistics (I believe from articles on this website) that many Catholics are converting to Mormonism.

I consider myself an orthodox Christian, let’s just get that out of the way first. But, I am also trying to be honest here. Someone please give me a good explanation for the lack of practical application among Christians and the incredible “performance” (for lack of a better word) of Mormons.

thanks in advance (I generally like this forum and appreciate it, thanks)

Hi Mort, LOVE the question:thumbsup:

Space is very limited by necessity on the FORUM so if you wish more info send me a PM.

Mormonism is actually a CULT; not a christian religion. In MANY ways; but MUCH more disciplined and organized it mimics [or perhaps the revese?] the New Age Movement which although not commonly recogonized; is BY FAR the WORLDS leading “religion”

The primary diffference is HIGHLY signifiant. the Mormons [LDS} are FAR, FAR more Morally responsible than New Agers. The point of common ground lies in the fact that in [COLOR=“Blue”]“the end” they BOTH are there own gods.[Small “G”]. Thus they are NOT Christians.

The sucess of the LDS lies in there super- aggressive tactics of recruitment discilpines which rely on two KEY factors. Ignorance of what Scripture actully does say[AND MEAN]; and the laziness of folks to actually make the effort **[as you are doing: THANK YOU!] **to find out for themselves what is true and what is not. *.There were other errors as well.

*The sucess of New Age is that its basic tanets have VERY BROAD appeal: “Don’t judge me and in return I woun’t judege you,” and “It is ONLY wrong IF I say that it is WRONG.” *That Broad appeal without responsibilities, liablities, or in theroy; consequecnes is a very easy sell especially in reguard to Moral issues of FREE SEX; Abortion,. and same sex “unions” [can’t get my self to say “marriages” NOT! But also business ethics… Not always articulated but nevertheless a way of life for HUGE nunbers of folks.

Fallen away catholics have become NOW the third largest “religious group” in America. For a varity of reason that space prohibits covering here. No doubt some of them have brought into the fictional beliefs [totally anti -biblical] of the LDS.

The RCC remains the LARGEST Christian Faith in America and in the Entire World… WHY? Because it holds the KEYS [Mt.16:19]; that means all accress to heaven. It is also the ONLY Faith, and ONLY Church actually founded by God Himself and the ONLY Church and Faith [set of religious beliefs] that STILL has BOTH the Holy Spirit [Jn.14: 16-17] and Jesus Christ Himself as warranty of Her Teaching the Singular truth necessary for everyones Eternal salvation. [Jn.17:15-19 and John 20:19-21].

God Bless and GUIDE you my friend,

Pat*

 

[BORCHAPEMT]

I remember as a young teenager attending an Adventist Tent Revival. The first week the speakers spoke in general terms and shared many truths. The attendees became comfortable and as time went on they gradually would insert their personal interpretation. By the 4th and final week many of the attendees converted. I never converted but I must admit, It was very effective and sparked a desire in me to search for facts. It took many years, but I think my Catholic faith is healthier now because of that.

So yes, Mormons and other Christian based religions generally have honorable traits we should admire, respect and even immitate. It’s when you start getting into the details, that in my opinion Catholisim sticks out as the proper guiding light towards salvation.

Prayers and best wishes to all as we continue in our search for truth.

 

[PJM]

=BORCHAPEMT;8122535]I remember as a young teenager attending an Adventist Tent Revival. The first week the speakers spoke in general terms and shared many truths. The attendees became comfortable and as time went on they gradually would insert their personal interpretation. By the 4th and final week many of the attendees converted. I never converted but I must admit, It was very effective and sparked a desire in me to search for facts. It took many years, but I think my Catholic faith is healthier now because of that.

So yes, Mormons and other Christian based religions generally have honorable traits we should admire, respect and even immitate. It’s when you start getting into the details, that in my opinion Catholisim sticks out as the proper guiding light towards salvation.

Prayers and best wishes to all as we continue in our search for truth.

Well stated. THANK YOU

 

[GuerreroDeAmor]

Hi Mort, LOVE the question:thumbsup:

Space is very limited by necessity on the FORUM so if you wish more info send me a PM.

Mormonism is actually a CULT; not a christian religion. In MANY ways; but MUCH more disciplined and organized it mimics [or perhaps the revese?] the New Age Movement which although not commonly recogonized; is BY FAR the WORLDS leading “religion”

The primary diffference is HIGHLY signifiant. the Mormons [LDS} are FAR, FAR more Morally responsible than New Agers. The point of common ground lies in the fact that in [COLOR=“Blue”]“the end” they BOTH are there own gods.[Small “G”]. Thus they are NOT Christians.

The sucess of the LDS lies in there super- aggressive tactics of recruitment discilpines which rely on two KEY factors. Ignorance of what Scripture actully does say[AND MEAN]; and the laziness of folks to actually make the effort **[as you are doing: THANK YOU!] **to find out for themselves what is true and what is not. *.There were other errors as well.

*The sucess of New Age is that its basic tanets have VERY BROAD appeal: “Don’t judge me and in return I woun’t judege you,” and “It is ONLY wrong IF I say that it is WRONG.” *That Broad appeal without responsibilities, liablities, or in theroy; consequecnes is a very easy sell especially in reguard to Moral issues of FREE SEX; Abortion,. and same sex “unions” [can’t get my self to say “marriages” NOT! But also business ethics… Not always articulated but nevertheless a way of life for HUGE nunbers of folks.

Fallen away catholics have become NOW the third largest “religious group” in America. For a varity of reason that space prohibits covering here. No doubt some of them have brought into the fictional beliefs [totally anti -biblical] of the LDS.

The RCC remains the LARGEST Christian Faith in America and in the Entire World… WHY? Because it holds the KEYS [Mt.16:19]; that means all accress to heaven. It is also the ONLY Faith, and ONLY Church actually founded by God Himself and the ONLY Church and Faith [set of religious beliefs] that STILL has BOTH the Holy Spirit [Jn.14: 16-17] and Jesus Christ Himself as warranty of Her Teaching the Singular truth necessary for everyones Eternal salvation. [Jn.17:15-19 and John 20:19-21].

God Bless and GUIDE you my friend,

Pat*

PJM,
Just want to point out something…

WATCHTOWER is actually the magazine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. As far as I know, Mormons aren’t known to handout magazines to non-mormons…just the Book of Mormon. But yes, Mormons do believe that we can all become gods ruling other planets in the hereafter. And yes, Mormonism is a pyramid-scheming cult.

Thank you and have a nice day,
Guerrero.

 

[stokemeister]

I am a practicing Mormon. It has been interesting reading this tread, still some wildly funny beliefs about what I believe or how strongly certain implications of some uniquely Mormon scriptural passages shape the overall theology. Keep in mind that similar ‘weird’ or ‘crazy’ implications of Biblical passages can also be made, for example I was answering questions of a friend about giants in the Old Testament today and explanations on the web from apparently faithful believers went as far as extraterrestrial impregnation. My point being when you hear things like ‘Mormon have to have 5 kids to be saved’ or ‘each Mormon gets their own planet when they die’, odds are such statements are exaggerations or twists or otherwise unhelpful in really understanding someone’s beliefs.

I also don’t have the stats to know if Catholics are converting to Mormonism in record numbers but I do know that the growth of the LDS Church in the last 50 years has been particularly strong in Latin America and the Philippines. Forecasts generally say the growth of Mormonism will continue in Latin America and SubSaharan Africa. On all those fronts I don’t know think that necessarily indicates conversion from Catholicism more than being some of the most culturally Christian nations remaining.

To the question at hand, what does the passage “by their fruits ye shall know them mean?” and can anything be said about Mormon’s “nice” reputation being part of that.

First, the passage is in the context of the Sermon on the Mount and I think verses 13-29 paint the full picture. A couple points the Savior is teaching: 1) his way, the way to salvation takes discipline 2) don’t necessarily expect that it will be the most popular thing 3) There will be future prophets but some will be false. 4) a true prophet is implied to be meek like a sheep while a false prophet is implied to be filled with ulterior motives and deceit is his tool. The true prophet bears good fruit while a false prophet eventually bears thorns, corruption, and evil fruit. 5) what kind of fruit? the passage continues and focuses on “doing the will of the Father” and “doing his saying” as true fruit and not necessarily dramatic evidences of prophesies, casting out devils, and showboating in the name of the Lord.

Apologists on both sides could use this passage accompanied with anecdotal evidence to defend that both Mormonism and Catholicism as ‘true’ or ‘false’. That will not be my goal in this post.

In Galatians and Ephesians Paul uses the imagery of “fruits” and his adjectives include goodness, righteousness, love, peace, longsuffering, etc. Certainly those attributes can be described as “nice” but clearly there is more to it.

 

[stokemeister]

I’ll offer a few thoughts for additional pondering.

First, the evaluation is principally about the teacher of righteousness, the leader or prophet. And the fruit can be both the life of that teacher as well as the fruit of his teachings as manifested in the lives of the followers, with the primary measurement being “doing the will of the Father”. That begs the question what is the will of the Father? what has he asked us to do? Does he ever give us new commandments or additional instruction?

Mormons do invite added scrutiny based on this warning from Jesus as they have unabashedly claimed to have prophets in the judeo-christian tradition and gone as far as putting the writings of those additional prophets right next to the writings of prophets of the Old and New Testaments. Certainly Catholicism has also had additional teachers of doctrine, leaders, and added doctrinal teachings to the fundamental texts gathered as the Bible. Catholicism might not use the words “prophet” or “new scripture” but I think the Savior’s warning still applies to all teachers that came after him.

Perhaps my last contribution can be to just share what I find as compelling fruits in Mormonism. Starting with Joseph Smith, after studying his life in depth, studying what people who knew and interacted with him (believers and nonbelievers) I find him to be an absolutely remarkable man who was seeking to follow the commandments of God. People may choose not to believe his story and dismiss it as delusional or as one neighbor put it “the sweet dream of a pure minded boy” but I think his personal history shows that he was not a ravenous wolf prospering and using deceit as his tool. He was thoroughly convinced of what he saw and was instructed to do, the growth and spread of his teaching did not result in his personal wealth or aggrandizement. He was dramatically unsuccessful in financial matters and ultimately gave his life. The flock he started went on to build cities, universities, countless houses of worship, and have a reputation for community service, humanitarian relief and sweetly nice to a fault. Vastly different than say a Bernie Madoff or a Jim Jones or a Joel Osteen.

Second, when I ask myself that question of what does the Lord want us “to do”, I see a couple themes or requirements as recorded through prophets, Jesus, or the Apostles of the first century:

Repent. Turn away from carnal and worldly things and towards righteousness.
Be an active participant in the Lord’s community. Join his people (baptism), strengthen one another.
Seek and strive. Seek to do his will. Strive for light, goodness, righteousness.
Be willing to have your faith tested. Temptation. Special requests by the Lord to go here, do this, say this, sacrifice that. Tests even as high as giving up everything you own, your family and even your life.

To me Mormonism and the desires of Mormons are for these things. They are action orientated and quick to organize and sacrifice. So when the Lord says “Preach the gospel to every nation” they start getting on boats and planes. Knocking doors might be outdated and less effective but they will go on and try other things as well. They honestly felt the Lord commanded them to join in plural marriages for a time even though the thought was repugnant to them and their protestant backgrounds. They make commitments to live a certain way and hold themselves accountable to it, even if it means losing your starting the center the week before the NCAA tournament. They try to be good, to be smart, to serve others. They’re human and a church filled with human leaders and their are idiots and wolves in sheeps clothing in their midst just like any body of people but in general I find them to be a remarkable community with an incredible track record of faith and faithful seeking to live the teachings of Jesus Christ as they understand it.

Mormonism seems to be easily dismissed my the populous but to the honest seeker of truth they propose a story that cannot be dismissed without calling for some serious investigation.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormonism isn’t in the Judeo-Christian tradition. It rejects both as corrupt, and ignores both, replacing the Jewish and Christian traditions with its own ideas that are completely foreign to both.

Polygamy is repugnant and adulterous, but Smith went beyond this to marrying women who were already married, and threatening women/girls with negative eternal consequences if they turned down his advances.

He was not “sweetly nice”, any who saw through his ruse, or defied his requests, faced a campaign of public character assassination. Financial and worldly success is not the fruit that Christians seek. He doesn’t fit any of your “what does the Lord want us to do” requirements.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In Galatians and Ephesians Paul uses the imagery of “fruits” and his adjectives include goodness, righteousness, love, peace, longsuffering, etc. Certainly those attributes can be described as “nice” but clearly there is more to it.

Anyone can act good, righteous, etc.

 

[Stepson]

My father still works as a professor at a community college. He shares an office with a Deacon in the LDS. They where having a discussion on morality and how main stream society is trying to do away with it. The Deacon had an interesting point. He said that inquires about the LDS jumped ten fold after BYU did not let the basketball player play because he violated his oath. The Deacon was saying that contrary to what the media is trying to tell us people still are hungry for morals. I myself was impressed with how BYU stood up in that situation.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My father still works as a professor at a community college. He shares an office with a Deacon in the LDS. They where having a discussion on morality and how main stream society is trying to do away with it. The Deacon had an interesting point. He said that inquires about the LDS jumped ten fold after BYU did not let the basketball player play because he violated his oath. The Deacon was saying that contrary to what the media is trying to tell us people still are hungry for morals. I myself was impressed with how BYU stood up in that situation.

Mormons circulate a lot of faith-promoting rumors among themselves. This sounds like one of them. If you try to pin down the statistic sited, you’ll find either it can’t be done, or, they are not realistic at all compared to the true statistics.

 

[Stepson]

The focus was not on statistics but on the fact they did stand up on the side of morality. Just giving credit where credit is due. Not implicating or implying anything else.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The focus was not on statistics but on the fact they did stand up on the side of morality. Just giving credit where credit is due. Not implicating or implying anything else.

It is rather gray for Mormons, that is my experience. Moral-like behavior will be pumped up for appearances, especially when trying to convert someone. Otherwise, they’re people like the rest of us, with a wide range of failure and success in following what their moral beliefs are.

But to the point of kicking the athlete out…I won’t even go there. Other than to say, with a pragmatic morality such as they have, you never know.