By who’s hand did Jesus die ? Italian Romans or Judaism

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englands123

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I know it was the will of God he died but by who’s hands is the question.
 
From a document of Vatican II, Nostra aetate, #4:
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

… Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation.
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I think you are making a mistake if you think that “Romans” were necessarily “Italian”. The Roman Empire wasn’t like the British Empire, which was actually run by British people, i.e. people from the United Kingdom. It was entirely possible to be fully Roman without being Italian. For example, many of the Roman soldiers stationed in Britain were from what is now the Netherlands. You would need to do a lot of research if you wanted to prove that every single Roman present in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion was actually Italian.
 
The Romans were far from innocent. Was not them who caused much distress upon the Great Temple.
 
Technically both. It was the Jews that instigated it and pushed the Romans into it in order to follow the law. The Romans carried it out because they had to. If they didn’t, then the dishonest Jews would make those that refused to crucify Jesus as co-conspirators. Cesar would end up crucifying those people that refused to crucify Jesus. That’s why Pontius Pilate had no other choice but to order the execution of our Lord and savior. He could have followed his conscience. Pontius Pilate could have refused and told the Jews that they are in the wrong and he refuses to go through with it, but he didn’t because he didn’t want to lose his job as governor.
 
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He laid down His life. No man could have taken it.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father.”

Although the Jews concocted a devious plan to have Him murdered. The Romans were
mere tools in the Jewish plan. But no one realized that He is actually God and there is no way that any man could kill Him.
 
Mine.

The sins committed by my hand nailed Jesus to the cross.
 
People say “the Jews” but that’s not accurate. It was the Jewish leaders: the Sanhedrin, the priests. Some of the mob followed their lead, because the elders were good at manipulating the mob.
Pilate gave them what they wanted for self-serving political reasons, and perhaps out of fear of Caesar’s anger.
Titivillus said:
Mine.

The sins committed by my hand nailed Jesus to the cross.
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And this. Each and every one of us has sinned, and it was our sinfulness that made Christ’s death necessary.

All praise and thanks to God for our salvation.
 
Broadly speaking it was by government.

Local government was Jewish and Roman within a larger Roman empire.

Seeing how many people in the last hundred years were murdered by big government it is a wonder why this aspect is not recognized more often.
 
It wasn’t “Judaism” nor all Romans, but it was particular Jews and particular Romans (and Judas would count as a Christian who was in on it) who were directly responsible for his death. Of course, ultimately it was the sins of all men, Jews and Gentiles alike.
 
Londoner said:
I think you are making a mistake if you think that “Romans” were necessarily “Italian”. The Roman Empire wasn’t like the British Empire, which was actually run by British people, i.e. people from the United Kingdom. It was entirely possible to be fully Roman without being Italian. For example, many of the Roman soldiers stationed in Britain were from what is now the Netherlands. You would need to do a lot of research if you wanted to prove that every single Roman present in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion was actually Italian.
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A truly multi-cultural undertaking.

In essence, He was killed by and for all of our sins.
 
Zaccheus said:
People say “the Jews” but that’s not accurate. It was the Jewish leaders: the Sanhedrin, the priests.
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Even some of them were not involved.
abucs said:
Broadly speaking it was by government.

Local government was Jewish and Roman within a larger Roman empire.

Seeing how many people in the last hundred years were murdered by big government it is a wonder why this aspect is not recognized more often.
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People are not murdered by a faceless “big government.” Pontius Pilate could have spared Jesus. He was not under pressure from Caesar to go after him, even though the Romans crucified thousands of Jews in a show of force. Likewise, the atrocities of every pogrom, every genocide and every other organized massacre are carried out by persons, both those who share the sadistic or murderous tendencies of their leaders or those who lack the courage to resist this wrongdoing but choose instead to attack other innocents rather than suffering themselves. Even the most brutal leaders have no way to enforce their will without compliance from those around them.

Government is a necessary structure in the peaceful co-existence of large numbers of people. Yes, it is easier to do both intentional and unintentional harm when you are making decisions that affect people you will never meet, but government doesn’t automatically become evil or heartless or a law unto itself just because it becomes big. Concluding that governments are automatically become unethical governments just because they reach a certain size is a counterproductive kind of scapegoating. We aren’t unrealistic to expect better than that.
 
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PetraG said:
Government is a necessary structure in the peaceful co-existence of large numbers of people. Yes, it is easier to do both intentional and unintentional harm when you are making decisions that affect people you will never meet, but government doesn’t automatically become evil or heartless or a law unto itself just because it becomes big.
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Of course government is necessary. When it controls all facets of society like socialism then it has shown that it can facilitate mass murder of it’s citizens on a scale that is unmatched. There are easily identified reasons and patterns on why this is the case.

When the state controls more and more facets of society then it becomes corrupt, has more wealth and is less accountable and focuses not on justice but on it’s own propagation.

Back to Jesus. He was not killed in battle or in his sleep or in a robbery. He was stripped naked and nailed to a tree in accordance with agents of the state playing out the will of the state. It was a corrupt state that killed Jesus that just happened to be part of the biggest state of the time in connection with local limited Jewish rule.

I recommend the Gulag Archipeligo.
 
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