Byzantine Catholic Church

[rben20]

Hello Eastern Catholics,

I am a Roman Catholic who will be attending a Byzantine Catholic Church this weekend. I usually attend a Traditional Latin Mass but I wanted to experience an Eastern Liturgy. I’mg oing into this blindly not knowing to expect. Are there huge differences? Anything I should know? Thanks

 

[VetA]

Hello Eastern Catholics,

I am a Roman Catholic who will be attending a Byzantine Catholic Church this weekend. I usually attend a Traditional Latin Mass but I wanted to experience an Eastern Liturgy. I’mg oing into this blindly not knowing to expect. Are there huge differences? Anything I should know? Thanks

same exact situation as you (even down to the TLM) i will eagerly await responses

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hello Eastern Catholics,

I am a Roman Catholic who will be attending a Byzantine Catholic Church this weekend. I usually attend a Traditional Latin Mass but I wanted to experience an Eastern Liturgy. I’mg oing into this blindly not knowing to expect. Are there huge differences? Anything I should know? Thanks

Hey! What particular Church are you going to? Ukrainian, Melkite, Reuthenian, etc?

Key pointers, never kneel. Before consecration and before the prayers before Communion the deacon or priest will say “stand in fear of the Lord,” and to “keep upright.” Depends too on the parish, you may have no other choice but to remain standing the entire Divine Liturgy (no pews).

When receiving Communion, tilt your head back, don’t stick your tongue out. You may have to bend your knees, depending on your height and the height of the priest. I’ve heard that the tradition is that you say your name to the priest before receiving so he can say the prayer with your name. But we don’t do that in our parish, might be different in the one you’re going to.

Is the DL in English? Sung? Normally just follow what everyone else does. There should be a book for the Divine Liturgy there you can follow. In the parish I go to they have one with just the words, and another with the notes.

Sign of the cross is also in reverse, you go right-to-left shoulder.

Also do not genuflect. You may do a profound bow (forehead down to waist level)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Try this link too…

saintelias.com/ca/etiquette/

Although take note, even though its UGCC and I go to UGCC, what we do in our parish is different. I think some minor practices may vary from parish to parish. But generally its a good guide.

Just go with the flow and follow what everyone else does.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

All great advice so far!

It would be good to simply do what everyone else is doing in the church since each parish will do what it wills. The Saint Elias church website is excellent - but that parish is an exemplar of what an Eastern Catholic parish should be and most parishes aren’t like that.

You may cross yourself in the way Roman Catholics were instructed to cross themselves by Pope Innocent III - by bringing your thumb, index and middle fingers together and going to the right (that symbolizes Christ sitting at the Right Hand of the Father). The sign of the Cross is made frequently, like during a Tridentine Mass (which makes the sign of the Cross 54 times during the Mass, am I correct?).

Whenever the Holy Trinity is mentioned, make the Sign of the Cross and often with a slight inclination of the head or a neck bow afterwards.

If you go up to honour the icons on the “tetrapod” then make the sign of the Cross twice wiht a bow to the icons each time then move to kiss the icons (kiss the Hand of Christ or of our Lady and the Saints depicted there, never the faces, in imitation of the woman with the issue of blood who, in her humility, touched the edge of Christ’s garment and was healed). Then move back and make one more Sign of the Cross with a bow.

If the congregation kneels, then you kneel. If not, then . . . you know

You should report back to tell everyone here how it was . . .

Alex

 

[ConstantineTG]

All great advice so far!

It would be good to simply do what everyone else is doing in the church since each parish will do what it wills. The Saint Elias church website is excellent - but that parish is an exemplar of what an Eastern Catholic parish should be and most parishes aren’t like that.

You may cross yourself in the way Roman Catholics were instructed to cross themselves by Pope Innocent III - by bringing your thumb, index and middle fingers together and going to the right (that symbolizes Christ sitting at the Right Hand of the Father). The sign of the Cross is made frequently, like during a Tridentine Mass (which makes the sign of the Cross 54 times during the Mass, am I correct?).

Whenever the Holy Trinity is mentioned, make the Sign of the Cross and often with a slight inclination of the head or a neck bow afterwards.

If you go up to honour the icons on the “tetrapod” then make the sign of the Cross twice wiht a bow to the icons each time then move to kiss the icons (kiss the Hand of Christ or of our Lady and the Saints depicted there, never the faces, in imitation of the woman with the issue of blood who, in her humility, touched the edge of Christ’s garment and was healed). Then move back and make one more Sign of the Cross with a bow.

If the congregation kneels, then you kneel. If not, then . . . you know

You should report back to tell everyone here how it was . . .

Alex

Alex, is the tetrapod the table in front just outside the iconostasis? I haven’t dared approach it yet and I keep forgetting to ask the Reverend Subdeacon what I should do. So I bow with each sign of the cross?

Also about kneeling, 1/3 of those in our parish kneel and the rest stand. Its only a small number of people for English DL, there are more for the Ukrainian. But I follow those who stand because I know its whats proper in the East.

 

[rben20]

The Byzantine Catholic Church is a Ruthenian Catholic Church under the Ruthenian Metropolitan Basil. I might also add that though I prefer the TLM…because of its rarity in my area, I usually attend the Novus Ordo Mass. This is something I am really looking forward to! I will for sure let you all know how it went.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Byzantine Catholic Church is a Ruthenian Catholic Church under the Ruthenian Metropolitan Basil. I might also add that though I prefer the TLM…because of its rarity in my area, I usually attend the Novus Ordo Mass. This is something I am really looking forward to! I will for sure let you all know how it went.

In my opinion, Divine Liturgy offers the good points you see in the OF and the EF. You have a very traditional Liturgy which was made 1500 years ago, plenty of participation like the OF, and best of all in the vernacular. Also the vestments of the priests are really nice, at par with what the FSSP priests I have seen wear.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Alex, is the tetrapod the table in front just outside the iconostasis? I haven’t dared approach it yet and I keep forgetting to ask the Reverend Subdeacon what I should do. So I bow with each sign of the cross?

Also about kneeling, 1/3 of those in our parish kneel and the rest stand. Its only a small number of people for English DL, there are more for the Ukrainian. But I follow those who stand because I know its whats proper in the East.

Yes, it’s the table in front of the iconostasis and will have the Cross and the icon of the Feast being celebrated.

Feel free to approach it when you first come into church. Go right up to it, Cross yourself twice with bows to the waist, then reverence the Cross first (at the Feet of Christ only), then the icon next to the Cross. Then step back and do another Sign of the Cross with bow to the waist.

You may then turn around and incline your head towards the left and right to the people and say (quietly to yourself), “Forgive me, brothers and sisters.”

Its always good, following Christ’s parable of the pharisee and the publican, to say the Jesus Prayer with the Sign of the Cross three times when entering or leaving the Church.

Also, whenever we pass a Church outside, we make the Sign of the Cross once, but recite the Jesus Prayer rather than the Trinitarian Invocation.

Feel free to stand if there is no uniformity on the matter in the parish. I prefer to stand for the simple reason that the rubrics prescribed that one make the Sign of the Cross and do a waist bow after the Words of Institution, This is My Body . . . bow, This is My Blood . . . bow.

I don’t see how one can do that when one is kneeling.

And whenever you feel moved to honour a Saint whose icon you see, simply say, “Holy Saint (name) pray unto God for me.” Or “Most Holy Theotkos, save us!” or the Jesus Prayer to icons of Christ and so on.

When the priest offers you the Cross to reverence with a kiss, say “Glory to Thy Precious Cross, O Lord and to Thy Resurrection.”

And when the priest incenses, one may say, “Thy Good Spirit shall lead me on the ways that are straight” (I guess that’s not a good translation . . .).

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Aramis]

Hello Eastern Catholics,

I am a Roman Catholic who will be attending a Byzantine Catholic Church this weekend. I usually attend a Traditional Latin Mass but I wanted to experience an Eastern Liturgy. I’mg oing into this blindly not knowing to expect. Are there huge differences? Anything I should know? Thanks

Overall, it will be different, but not too different. However, the list of things that are notably different…

1. No kneeling. (If people are, they’re doing it wrong.)
2. No holy water. We only have holy water out for baptisms.
3. More incense.
4. standing: lots of it. wear sensible shoes. If you don’t you will regret it.
5. no lip treatements (lipstick, chapstick, etc)… we kiss icons and the chalice, and in more traditional parishes also the priest’s hand. Often.
6. Communion will be by spoon. To receive, get in line, reverence the icon on the tetrapod with a kiss, then cross your arms into an “x” across your chest. At your turn, say your name, step really close, tilt your head back, open wide like a baby bird, and say nothing. It will be a large chunk of the body in the blood, dropped into your mouth. Do not close your mouth on the spoon. If there are no servers, bring the red cloth up to your chin as you say your name, if there are, they will usually do that for you. It’s common to kiss the chalice immediately after reception.
7. Leavened bread is used for the consecration. This is licit and valid for the Eastern Churches. Don’t panic.
8. wear layers; the temperature rises from all the singing in many parishes.
9. it is likely to be in the vernacular in whole or part. But it might very well also be entirely in the ethnic language of the parish.
10. there is normally only one prayer spoken; the rest are usually sung. (If it’s all spoken, you’re probably in a latinized Ukrainian parish.)
11. Veiling/hats: mantillas are rare, hats and scarves common, chapel veils less so, and no issue made of it in most parishes.
12. you will see children being communed… even babes in arms. Don’t be suprised if asked whether your child is to be communed.
13. books: you may see several different kinds. As the cantors which one to follow along in.
14. Early Arrival: If liturgy starts at 10, expect a service to be in progress from 9:30, or maybe even 9:15. to 9:50… just go in, reverence the icons, and take a place. You are not late for liturgy, just for either matins or 3rd hour.
15. Expect to be realized as being a visitor immediately. Many parishes are small enough that everyone at least recognizes everyone else, even if names are not known.
16. you probably won’t see the alter nor tabernacle at all until the liturgy begins. They’re behind the wall of icons with the 3 doorways. Don’t go in, unless the priest invites you in for confession
17. Confession: if you need to go to confession, it’s usually in front of the Icon of Christ. If you see a priest with black robe and stole, and a parishioner with him, head under the stole, stay back. That’s a confession in process.
18. What looks like a second communion isn’t. it is common that the bread from which communion was cut is itself shared, either immediately after communion (as in, as you return to your seat) to help insure that Our Lord is consumed, or at the end of Liturgy. All baptized christians, and also often catechumens, are welcomed to receive this blessed bread. You approach the server holding it, take one, and then toss some change in the next server’s basket.
19. Annointing with Oil. Happens many times a year…
20. Comings and goings… Don’t walk in front of a procession… If you need to exit, or come in, look for a procession. If none, come on in. Even if a service is ongoing.
21. sign of the cross: reversed direction from the Latins… don’t worry, no one expects the visiting latin to make the sign of the cross byzantine style.
22. Deacons are addressed as Father or Father Deacon.
    Priests as Father or Reverend Father.
    Bishops as Master, Father Bishop, or (if they insist) Father.
    Their first names are used, not their last.
    So, just because you’re talking to “Father Ken” doesn’t mean he’s a priest.

23)“Let us complete our morning prayer to the Lord” is not yet close to the end. There’s another 10-20 minutes. It’s not over til the doors are closed.

 

[5Loaves]

All great advice so far!

It would be good to simply do what everyone else is doing in the church since each parish will do what it wills. The Saint Elias church website is excellent - but that parish is an exemplar of what an Eastern Catholic parish should be and most parishes aren’t like that.

If the congregation kneels, then you kneel. If not, then . . . you know

You should report back to tell everyone here how it was . . .

Alex

(I agree with all you said just not quoting it all.)

There are also some fairly recent threads here on this topic.

I think that 12 Things I Wish I’d Known…First Visit to an Orthodox Church is a good piece to read. Our liturgy is the same so although Khouria Frederica is writing about visiting an Orthodox Church the Divine Liturgy is the same in an ECC.

You mention you’re going to visit a Ruthenian parish. This reminds me that Fr. Tom Loya is a Ruthenian priest. Are you familiar with his weekly radio program “Light of the East”? It’s archived here. His programs deal with our EC/OC traditions, not only the Ruthenians. He has a lot of experience with Latin Catholics and with Orthodox Christians as well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Also, whenever we pass a Church outside, we make the Sign of the Cross once, but recite the Jesus Prayer rather than the Trinitarian Invocation.

I was taught to do the same when I was little. Funny thing is in the Philippines there are so many churches all around so you get to cross a lot and when I was little I couldn’t tell Protestant churches from Catholic churches, so I would cross in front of Protestant churches as well.

Also I’m curious about the kissing of the Book of Gospels. Before the Gospel reading the priest bring the book outside the iconostasis and presents it. Then our subdeacon brings his kids and they lineup and kiss the Gospel. Can I do it sometimes? Although I feel ackward because its mostly the kids who do it.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I was taught to do the same when I was little. Funny thing is in the Philippines there are so many churches all around so you get to cross a lot and when I was little I couldn’t tell Protestant churches from Catholic churches, so I would cross in front of Protestant churches as well.

Also I’m curious about the kissing of the Book of Gospels. Before the Gospel reading the priest bring the book outside the iconostasis and presents it. Then our subdeacon brings his kids and they lineup and kiss the Gospel. Can I do it sometimes? Although I feel ackward because its mostly the kids who do it.

A friend who was a convert used to Cross himself at the “drop of a hat.” As we were driving along the highway, he crossed himself, but I didn’t see anything that would require that he do so. He then said, "You see that hill over there? There’s a cemetery behind it . . "

Don’t you just love those converts?!

The tradition of kissing the Book of the Gospels after it is read should ideally be done by everyone in Church, not only by children. The Russian Old Believer Orthodox do it regularly and even have a rite for it (it is just like going to Communion, one should be prepared by Confession and prayer before approaching to kiss the Gospel).

One kisses the icon of the Evangelist on the lower right of the Book as the priest holds it out, making the appropriate sign of the Cross etc.

Whenever I’m in a parish that has this practice, I go even with the children only.

After all, what was that our Lord said about the children and the Kingdom of Heaven?

We’re in great company with them!

As for the Protestant churches, I think that is a good practice (get the Protestants used to making the sign of the Cross too!) I was once at an ecumenical service at a Baptist church and was asked to do one of the several readings. As I went up, I saw they had enshrined a Bible with flowers on a stand. So I went and made the usual obeisances and kissed the open Bible before going to do the reading.

Afterwards, the Baptist and other Protestant ministers invited me back to where they were divesting and thanked me for coming - they said they liked that “beautiful rite honouring the Word of God.” At that point the choir director came up and said, “You know, I was Russian Orthodox and I knew exactly what Alex was doing . . .” I asked him why he still wasn’t Orthodox, and he said that he would go back one day. :byzsoc:

As Thomas More once said to his son-in-law, “We must just pray that when your head has stopped turning around, your face is back up to the front again!”

Alex

 

[ConstantineTG]

You are awesome Alex, thanks for everything.

Oohh, can you answer my question from the other thread? When is the appropriate time(s) to cross and then touch the ground?

 

[ConstantineTG]

1. More incense.

I find the Chaldeans use a LOT of incense. They incense the procession, they incense the people, and I mean the server literally goes down the aisle again to incense the people. Then incensing the altar, the gifts, and at Communion you can purify your hands over the incense to receive CITH

1. Communion will be by spoon. To receive, get in line, reverence the icon on the tetrapod with a kiss, then cross your arms into an “x” across your chest. At your turn, say your name, step really close, tilt your head back, open wide like a baby bird, and say nothing. It will be a large chunk of the body in the blood, dropped into your mouth. Do not close your mouth on the spoon. If there are no servers, bring the red cloth up to your chin as you say your name, if there are, they will usually do that for you. It’s common to kiss the chalice immediately after reception.

Funny thing the first time I did so but last Sunday by instinct I said “Amen”.

 

[Hesychios]

The Byzantine Catholic Church is a Ruthenian Catholic Church under the Ruthenian Metropolitan Basil. I might also add that though I prefer the TLM…because of its rarity in my area, I usually attend the Novus Ordo Mass. This is something I am really looking forward to! I will for sure let you all know how it went.

If I am not mistaken Metropolitan Basil fell asleep in the Lord.

Memory Eternal!

 

[rben20]

You are correct Hesychios.

 

[smad0142]

The missal for the Divine Liturgy from the UGCC that we use in our Parish instructs us to kneel at the Consecration. Some do, some don’t.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The missal for the Divine Liturgy from the UGCC that we use in our Parish instructs us to kneel at the Consecration. Some do, some don’t.

You don’t use The Divine Liturgy: An Anthology for Worship?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Here’s a sample of DL from The Divine Liturgy for Congregational Singing (2-CD Set)

ustpaul.ca/Sheptytsky/media/33%20-%20Track%2033.ram