Byzantine Catholic Church

[Irish_Melkite]

twf:

And if you follow the link that Crusader provided, you’ll see that there are Eastern Catholic Churches of other rites as well, over 20 Eastern Catholic Churches altogether. Some came from the Eastern Orthodox Churches, some from the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and from the Assyrian Church.

I do have one problem with that article though…it talks about how the Syro-Malabar Church and the Chaldean Church came out of the Nestorian heresy…but the Church has since signed a common declaration on Christology with the Assyrian Church…they are no longer considered heretics (as far as Christology is concerned). Likewise, EWTN seems to label the Oriental Churches as adhering to the monophysite heresy. Likewise, the Catholic Church has signed a common declaration on Christology with the Oriental Churches. (And the Oriental Churches themselves strongly object to the monophysite label, likewise with the Assyrians and the Nestorian label). It’s very un-ecumenical.

twf,

You’re absolutely correct in your characterization of the EWTN article as having erroneous info regarding the Assyrian Church of the East. It’s also inaccurate in listing a Czech Byzantine Church; the Czech jurisdiction is actually not a Church sui iuris; it is a Ruthenian exarchate, created from the Eparchy of Mukachevo. What it labels as the Krizevci Catholic Church is actually the Croatian Catholic Church; Krizevci is merely the geographic designation of the eparchy. It also fails to list the Byzantine Georgian Catholic Church.

All in all, it’s far from my favorite reference site for Eastern Catholicism. The CNEWA link that you provided is a much better source of info.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

DominvsVobiscvm:

My lament is that most Eastern Catholic liturgies, at least in this country, are really watered down forms of the way these liturgies are supposed to be celebrated. There are some notable exceptions, but if you compare an Orthodox liturgy to an average Byzantine Catholic liturgy, you’ll find many differences (cheaper vestments, abridged litanies, etc,).

DV,

You are unfortunately correct in many instances, although there are serious efforts underway in many jurisdictions to address and remove the latinizations in accordance with the papal mandate to do so. Among the Byzantines, the Melkite, Romanian, Italo-Graeco-Albanian, and Russian Catholics have succeeded remarkably in restoration of their liturgical patrimony. Among the Ukrainians and Ruthenians, it is a work in progress, with significant differences from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and sometimes parish to parish. I can’t really say what success the individual Croat, Hungarian, and Slovak parishes within the Ruthenian and Ukrainian jurisdictions have had - separated from their parent Churches, it is definitely more difficult.

The Syriac Catholics have managed to retain or restore much of their heritage. The Syro-Malabarese, Syro-Malankarese, Chaldeans, Armenians, and Maronites, all of whom were subjected to significant latinization over history, are all working at it, with varying degrees of success. The Ethiopian parish and the Coptic missions have all succeeded very well in remaining true to their liturgical origins.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Orientale_Lumen]

DominvsVobiscvm:

There’s a rather infamous Ukranian Catholic Cathedral in Chicago that uses no incense, and whose liturgy is said, never sung. A truly horrid abomination. The Cathedral itself looks like something out of The Jetsons.

Dear DominvsVobiscvm,

I have seen the church of which you speak, but it is not the Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Cathedral of St. Nicholas. The cathedral is in the Ukie Village, while the church you speak of is out in suburbia (IIRC). St. Nicholas, though not a perfect model of how an Greco-Catholic parish should look and function, is much better than the ‘rocket’ church, in part becasue of ‘competition’ - Sts. Volodymyr & Olha G-C Church just down the road. This is a truly wonderful temple and parish, though I do have one complaint: pews.

BTW, from your comments on the ‘quality’ of services at the Jetsons church I would venture to guess the parish is served by the Basilians [OSBM] - an order not known for their love of their own Byzantine-Slavic rite. :nope:

 

[Hesychios]

Orientale Lumen:

Dear DominvsVobiscvm]
BTW, from your comments on the ‘quality’ of services at the Jetsons church I would venture to guess the parish is served by the Basilians [OSBM] - an order not known for their love of their own Byzantine-Slavic rite. :nope:

I believe that you are right. I have been there several times. The parish is on Cumberland Avenue and has a somewhat “modernistic” look to it. There is not much one can do about the architecture now, but a congregation can be set in their ways and if a minority advocates change it can be very unwelcome!

I have spoken to the pastor in casual conversation and he stated that he was encouraging change in some ways but he was encountering considerable resistance from within the congregation. I believe him too, I wouldn’t be too hard on the Basilians, many are idealistic and want to see changes in place but much damage has been done by their predecessors.

One of the big issues in Byzantine churches is pews. I am sure most Roman Catholics find that an odd problem. 450 years ago nobody had pews, Romans or Byzantines, so when we say we want to eliminate the pews in recovering our traditions it can seem an unnecessary inconvenience to remove an organic development.

But the entire issue really revolves around Latin practices that have penetrated every aspect of Byzantine worship. In order to properly worship in a Byzantine church it is necessary to have room to bow and make prostrations. Byzantine worship isn’t a show, it’s very participatory. In most pew arrangements one cannot bow properly without endangering oneself. You’d have to get into the aisle just to do your prostrations.

:bowdown:

We don’t usually kneel on Sundays (or shouldn’t) so we don’t need kneelers but since kneeling in the Roman way was introduced pews with kneelers became a must for the up and coming congregation. The traditional praying posture is standing, sitting is ok for older folks and the infirm but healthy individuals should have no trouble standing for only 1-1/2 hours. We should be chanting and singing our liturgies, but many parishes will recite them in the “low mass” style. We should be using all eight tones, some parishes may still use only two.

We should restore daily Matins and Vespers, in many parishes that has been replaced by the Rosary. Now the Rosary is a very beautiful and popular practice in Byzantine churches, but it needs to find a new time slot so that Matins can be restored.

A previous poster mentioned the shortened litanies, there is also the issue of more than one “mass” on an altar in one day! I believe the shortening of the liturgy was a way of accomodating more liturgies on a Sunday, a practice that should stop.

So anyone visiting a Byzantine rite church should be aware that there may be some latinizations that are due for changing if the congregation would be willing. I know that once the liturgical abuses are corrected the liturgy is astounding, and very appealing to visitors.

By the way, did I say I love the Byzantine Catholic Church? Well you can bet on it, warts and all!

Pray that the Eastern Catholic churches recover their heritage, and be the witness they were intended to be.

Michael, that sinner

 

[Edwin1961]

The only time for kneeling in the Byzantine Catholic Church is during The Great Fast, Holy Week, and the Kneeling Prayers of Pentecost. Those are the ONLY times for kneeling in our Church.

Just thought you’d want to know!

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[NYer]

twf:

And if you follow the link that Crusader provided, you’ll see that there are Eastern Catholic Churches of other rites as well, over 20 Eastern Catholic Churches altogether. Some came from the Eastern Orthodox Churches, some from the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and from the Assyrian Church.

I do have one problem with that article though…it talks about how the Syro-Malabar Church and the Chaldean Church came out of the Nestorian heresy…but the Church has since signed a common declaration on Christology with the Assyrian Church…they are no longer considered heretics (as far as Christology is concerned). Likewise, EWTN seems to label the Oriental Churches as adhering to the monophysite heresy. Likewise, the Catholic Church has signed a common declaration on Christology with the Oriental Churches. (And the Oriental Churches themselves strongly object to the monophysite label, likewise with the Assyrians and the Nestorian label). It’s very un-ecumenical.

For those who don’t know of the Oriental Churches or the Assyrian Church, take a look at cnewa.org/ecc-introduction.htm (which gives a description of all of the Eastern Churches, whether Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, or Eastern Catholic) or cired.org/ for the Assyrian Church. These churches (The Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Assyrian Church) are not to be confused with Eastern Orthodoxy…they are separate communions. The Assyrians left communion with the Catholic Church in the 5th century, at the Council of Ephesus, if I am not mistaken, while the Orientals left at the Council of Chaldean of the same century. The Eastern Orthodox Churches did not leave communion with Rome until several centuries later.

 

[NYer]

twf:

For those who don’t know of the Oriental Churches or the Assyrian Church, take a look at cnewa.org/ecc-introduction.htm (which gives a description of all of the Eastern Churches, whether Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, or Eastern Catholic)

Thanks for the link!

Since March of this year, I have been attending a Maronite Catholic Church. It captured my heart and sould and would not let go. The Maronites have no counterpart in the Easter Orthodox Church and have remained faithful to Rome from the start. In a letter addressed to Pope Hormisdas in 517, monks of St. Maron address the Pope as the one occupying the Chair of St. Peter, and inform him that they are undergoing many sufferings and attacks patiently. 350 Maronite monks were martyred for defending the Council of Chalcedon and Pope Leo, whose formula the Council had adopted.

It is a beautiful and spiritual liturgy. Communion is by intinction and on the tongue. The entire liturgy is chanted - a dialog between the celebrant and the congregation. Incense is used throughout. The priest blesses the congregation using a handcross, the Book of the Gospels and the Offerings. I would recommend that Roman Catholics attend an Eastern liturgy at least once.

 

[Edwin1961]

NYer,
Yes! IF more Roman Catholics attended one of our Eastern Catholic Churches, two things would happen.
Some, would start going to our churches.
OR there would be a greater appreciation for ‘the other lung’ of the Catholic Church (quote from JP2, Oreintale Lumen 1995).

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[akemner]

Slava Isusu Christu!

Hesychios saith:
“A previous poster mentioned the shortened litanies, there is also the issue of more than one “mass” on an altar in one day! I believe the shortening of the liturgy was a way of accomodating more liturgies on a Sunday, a practice that should stop”

I think that a big part of this is an attitude that Divine Liturgy should not exceed 60 minutes (some laity, as well as clergy, have this very attitude). When i was younger, my home parish celebrated DL in 55 minutes. As Father Pastor got older, he had to slow down, or else he would stutter though the prayers, impairing intelligibility. When he retired, DL was 75-90 minutes, mostly 80. I noticed a strange phenomenon-when DL was 55 min., folks would look at their watches or the clock and fidget. When it slowed in pace-they stopped all that nonsense. Liturgy became more prayerful and beautiful than before.

And, there are more and more parishes (at least in the Parma Eparchy) that are restoring a fuller DL, as well as Vespers, Orthros and Hours (if they are just starting restoration). Some parishes even celebrate according to the Ordo Celebrationis (gasp!!). This movement is still small, but i think we will see more of it as time passes.

In Christ,
Adam

 

[javelin35]

I visited a Byzantine church a couple of years ago and I could see the spirituality. But it was a very different experience and definitely not for everyone. Probably more suited for someone emmigrating from the east.

 

[Hesychios]

javelin35:

I visited a Byzantine church a couple of years ago and I could see the spirituality. But it was a very different experience and definitely not for everyone. Probably more suited for someone emmigrating from the east.

You must mean emigrating from New Jersey to California, or something like that.


Seriously, I respect your opinion but I think you need to take a second look.

I live in the prairieland of Illinois, real corn and soybean country and my parish is definately attracting a fair number of red-blooded Americans. I think (I’m guessing here) that about 20% of our parishioners are originally from non-Catholic origins. You could add another 20% or more whom have transferred from the Latin church, like me! One of my good friends there is a former Methodist minister who is very active with Bible studies and evangelization, and teaches theology at a Catholic University.

These people find us, they seek us out. I will be the first to admit that our own evangelization efforts are paltry. We are trying to do something about that, but in spite of our own failings people are looking for us.

So I respectfully disagree, there is an outstanding thirst for the spirituality of Byzantine Catholicism across America. We don’t consider ourselves an immigrant church, the BC has been here a long time and our ranks are full of people who have distant ancestors from all over the western world.

Take another look at America’s best kept secret.

Michael

Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[Edwin1961]

Michael,
You wrote…
“Take another look at America’s best kept secret.”
It’s not just America’s best kept secret, BUT one of Christ’s greatest Treasures!

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[a_pilgrim]

Edwin1961:

“Take another look at America’s best kept secret.”
It’s not just America’s best kept secret, BUT one of Christ’s greatest Treasures!

Go with God!
Edwin

My Brother,

I agree 100% with your response… my personal belief, however, is that the Eastern Catholic Church will not long maintain the “secret” status that we’ve endured for so long!

The Eastern Catholic Churches exist in America because God wants them to! If you read the history of the Eastern Catholic Church on American soil, you’ll find that, for all intents and purposes, we should not have survived here in America… by all accounts, *we should not be here today! *Our Church came to the “new country” at a time when there was no Eastern Catholic heierarchy in place here, and the Roman Catholic heierarchy that was in place did not want us here, disallowed the use of their facilities for the celebration of our Liturgies and even deported our priests back to the “old country.” Our own people, uneducated working people as they were, left the Catholic Church in America in droves, preferring the “familiarity” of Orthodoxy to the Latin traditions they found themselves being forced to assimilate. With all these factors working against our survival, both from without and within our ranks, *WE SHOULD NOT HAVE SURVIVED! *

…but we did!

I believe that the Eastern Catholic Church maintains a presence in America today for one reason and one reason only - it is the will of God that we be here!

God must certainly have a plan for the Eastern Catholic Church in America. I don’t know what that plan is - none of us do. But given the levels of dissatisfaction we see within the ranks of our Latin brethren with regard to liturgical abuse and such, interest in our traditions and theology seem to be on the upswing. Perhaps we offer a safe, fully-Catholic haven to those who seek to worship in a format more closely aligned with what the Apostles originally had in mind.

This is no newsflash - the Catholic Church in America is in crisis. Perhaps we, the “Eastern Lung” of our Catholic Church are here to somehow help ensure the future of our Mother Church on American soil. Maybe that’s why our Creator has seen fit to keep us around here, despite all the attempts, both internal and exteral, to get rid of us. Maybe, my brother, we are to play a key, yet-unknown role in the very survival of our Church in America.

BTW - if you find the time, please read through this…

cin.org/clash.html

I’m sure you’ll agree that God must have a reason for allowing us to survive despite all the turbulance, discrimination and persecution we went through. Our job now is to put our trust in Him and His Divine Wisdom!

a pilgrim

 

[Edwin1961]

a pilgrim,
Thank for the site, I have it bookmarked.

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[Maggie]

a pilgrim:

This is no newsflash - the Catholic Church in America is in crisis. Perhaps we, the “Eastern Lung” of our Catholic Church are here to somehow help ensure the future of our Mother Church on American soil. Maybe that’s why our Creator has seen fit to keep us around here, despite all the attempts, both internal and exteral, to get rid of us. Maybe, my brother, we are to play a key, yet-unknown role in the very survival of our Church in America.

BTW - if you find the time, please read through this…

cin.org/clash.html

I’m sure you’ll agree that God must have a reason for allowing us to survive despite all the turbulance, discrimination and persecution we went through. Our job now is to put our trust in Him and His Divine Wisdom!

a pilgrim

Amen. That of course is what all of us need to do, and I cannot but wonder at the beauty of a Mass that does not divide but brings us back to the history and marvel that is our past and our future. I can’t wait to find one close by and attend for the first time. I think it will be a marvelous experience that will help me to feel the Mass more fully. I look forward to it.

 

[Edwin1961]

Maggie:

Amen. That of course is what all of us need to do, and I cannot but wonder at the beauty of a Mass that does not divide but brings us back to the history and marvel that is our past and our future. I can’t wait to find one close by and attend for the first time. I think it will be a marvelous experience that will help me to feel the Mass more fully. I look forward to it.

Maggie,
Go to this site:
byzcath.org/pas/passaic.htm
This is the Eparchy(Diocese) in your area. I am sure you can find a Byzantine Catholic Church near you!

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Crusader:

We need to keep in mind that within the Byzaintine Rite, there are fourteen (14) different Churches:

• Czech - Czech Catholics of Byzantine Rite organized into a jurisdiction in 1996.

• Krizevci - Croatian Catholics of Byzantine Rite who resumed communion with Rome in 1611. The liturgical language is Old Slavonic. The 50,000 faithful can be found in Croatia and the Americas. Most Croatians are Roman (Rite) Catholics.

• Italo-Albanian - Never separated from Rome, these 60,000 Byzantine Rite Catholics are found in Italy, Sicily and the Americas. The liturgical languages are Greek and Italo-Albanian.

(ref. ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm)

Crusader,

The EWTN site you reference isn’t completely accurate.

There is no Byzantine Czech Catholic Church. The Eastern Catholic jurisdiction in the Czech Republic is a Ruthenian exachate, formed from the Ruthenian Eparchy of Mukachevo.

There is no Krizevci Catholic Church either. Krizevci is the geographic name of the canonical jurisdiction for the Croatian Catholic Church.

The Italo-Albanian Catholic Church is correctly styled as the Italo-Grieco-Albanian or Italo-Greek-Albanian Catholic Church.

There are other, less egregious errors as well. Overall, EWTN is a poor source for information on any of the Eastern Churches.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Maggie:

Amen. That of course is what all of us need to do, and I cannot but wonder at the beauty of a Mass that does not divide but brings us back to the history and marvel that is our past and our future. I can’t wait to find one close by and attend for the first time. I think it will be a marvelous experience that will help me to feel the Mass more fully. I look forward to it.

Maggie,

This is a link crosslink.net/~hrycak/ch_indx-s.html to the Unofficial Directory of Eastern Catholic Churches in the US; although it isn’t completely up-to-date (very light as far as the Syro-Malankara and Syro-Malabar parishes as of yet), it’s the closest one will find to a compendium of US EC parishes. As I recollect, the only EC parish in Delaware is a Ukrainian parish of the Archeparchy of Philadelphia, located in Wilmington.

Many years,

Neil

 

[NYer]

a pilgrim:

I believe that the Eastern Catholic Church maintains a presence in America today for one reason and one reason only - it is the will of God that we be here!

I believe you are right! In fact, I believe that God, who can read our hearts and knows our innermost feelings, is calling His children “home”.

God must certainly have a plan for the Eastern Catholic Church in America. I don’t know what that plan is - none of us do. But given the levels of dissatisfaction we see within the ranks of our Latin brethren with regard to liturgical abuse and such, interest in our traditions and theology seem to be on the upswing. Perhaps we offer a safe, fully-Catholic haven to those who seek to worship in a format more closely aligned with what the Apostles originally had in mind.

Yes - absolutely! That is what I was trying to say. I suffered through years of liturgical abuse at my NO parish. At one point, it became necessary to stop an abuse before it began. In a sense, I felt obligated to watch over the “sheeples” in the pews who are ignorant of the GIRM and did not recognize the abuses. When I tried to rally some support, the parishioners told me they liked Father’s “new” ideas.

Attending mass each Sunday was agonizing. The pastor switched from metal to glass communion bowls. Only the best for Our Lord! The Crucifix became a ‘prop’, pulled out during Lent then confined to some back room for the remainder of the year. What sent me flying, however, was the most egregious abuse Ihad ever witnessed. One of the Eucharistic Ministers (or did they change that title recently?), dropped a consecrated host on the ground, bent over, wiped it off and placed it back into her glass communion bowl. I apologized to Our Lord on her behalf.

The first time I walked into our Maronite Catholic Church, the small church was dark with the exception of 3 spotlights - one on the Tabernacle, one on a simple, yet beautiful Crucifix and the 3rd on the Book of the Gospels. I had prayed to Our Lord to lead me to a valid liturgy, a holy man and a welcoming community. It was all there in this small church.

While a Roman Catholic may join an Eastern Rite parish, I have been totally captivated by the Maronite Tradition. I am now in the process of formally switching from the Roman to the Maronite Rite.

Thank you for the link! If you find time, please read this …
reginadoman.com/articles/riteswitch.html

 

[Paul_Francis]

Edwin1961:

NYer,
Yes! IF more Roman Catholics attended one of our Eastern Catholic Churches, two things would happen.
Some, would start going to our churches.
OR there would be a greater appreciation for ‘the other lung’ of the Catholic Church (quote from JP2, Oreintale Lumen 1995).

Go with God!
Edwin

I have to admit that until about eight years ago, I did not know a lot about the Eastern Catholic Churches.

We had a class on the Eastern Catholic Churches. On several occasions, I have been a guest at one of the two Byzantine Catholic Churches in my area for Divine Liturgy.

Thought I do not harbor any thoughts of switching rites, I do like the Divine Liturgy. Others may appreciate the fullness of the Catholic Church too by experiencing what our Sister Churches have.

I was pleasantly surprised to hear that my one nephew had gone to a Byzantine Church for Divine Liturgy in Pennsylvania as part of his grade school religion class. I would hope more young people were exposed to other parts of our Church, but I think while I was growing up, I heard more about the Protestant Churches.