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CharitableFaith
Guest
Do Byzantine Catholics pray the Rosary?
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Hesychios
Guest
Many do.
Particularly the older women, from my experience.
Particularly the older women, from my experience.
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ByzCath89
Guest
I hate to use this phrase…but it depends on what church you go to. Some parishes will encourage it, mine in particular discourages it now as a “latinization”. We have been asked to return to the chotki beads. Its individual preference for most people BUT it is not really taught in religious education anymore.
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
The traditional “rosary” for Byzantine Catholics is the “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos.” It originated in the East some time around the 8th Century, but fell into disuse for some time. It was repopularized by St. Seraphim of Sarov in the 18th Century. It consists of 150 repetitions of the “Angelic Salutation” divided into 15 decades. I don’t know if this is original to the Rule, but St. Seraphim provided a mystery for each decade. Some correspond to the mysteries of the Latin rosary, others do not.
The “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos” is still not very common among Eastern Catholics or Orthodox. But for those Eastern Catholics who do not want to give up their rosary, switching to the “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos” would be a restoration of authentic Eastern practice.
Replacing the rosary with the chotki/Jesus Prayer is not adequate as the spiritual approach to the two is very different. The Jesus Prayer is meant to be “imageless,” whereas the Rule provides mysteries upon which to meditate.
The “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos” is still not very common among Eastern Catholics or Orthodox. But for those Eastern Catholics who do not want to give up their rosary, switching to the “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos” would be a restoration of authentic Eastern practice.
Replacing the rosary with the chotki/Jesus Prayer is not adequate as the spiritual approach to the two is very different. The Jesus Prayer is meant to be “imageless,” whereas the Rule provides mysteries upon which to meditate.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Not only do Byzantine Catholics pray the Rosary, other Eastern Catholics do as well. I was once at an Armenian Orthodox Church where I saw RC rosaries placed in ALL the cars there (yes, I walked up and down to see them all to satisfy my curiosity).
The division of the chotki into decades is a Slavonic practice and this lends itself to the saying of the Rule or Rosary of the Mother of God.
I recently bought a Russian Orthodox prayerbook that listed the mysteries for the Rule of the Theotokos at the back - with the proviso that a member of the faithful who wished to pray it must first seek their priest’s blessing to say it . . .\
Alex
The division of the chotki into decades is a Slavonic practice and this lends itself to the saying of the Rule or Rosary of the Mother of God.
I recently bought a Russian Orthodox prayerbook that listed the mysteries for the Rule of the Theotokos at the back - with the proviso that a member of the faithful who wished to pray it must first seek their priest’s blessing to say it . . .\
Alex
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Splagchnizomai
Guest
From your timeline, the “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos” fell out of use for almost ten centuries. During that time (and after the 13th/14th century of the rosary’s beginnings), did Eastern Catholics pray the rosary? How is the traditional rosary with its meditations on the life of Christ not authentic for Eastern Catholics? It appears that St Seraphim was influenced by the rosary with his added mysteries, right?
On a side note. I wonder why Roman Catholics are encouraged to say the Jesus Prayer, yet it does not get labeled as inauthentic or contrary to the Latin Church’s spiritual traditions. When Byzantine Catholics or other ECs pray the rosary, it is denigrated as a “latinization” and inauthentic or inadequate.
Why do you suppose there is this double standard?
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
I should’ve been more specific when I said the “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos” fell into disuse. It would’ve been better for me to have said it fell out of popular use. From what I understand this Rule has been prayed constantly on Mt. Athos even to our own present day. Obviously it has had some limited use outside of Mt. Athos, otherwise St. Seraphim would never have heard of it.
At the very earliest it is possible that Eastern Catholics prayed the Rosary once they began forming (re)unions with Rome. I believe the earliest reunion is the “Union of Brest” which came about between 1595 - 1596. Let’s just round up and say 1600. That would mean that among Eastern Catholic the Rosary at best has been used for only 400 years. But that is presuming that Eastern Catholics started praying the Rosary right away upon reunion. More likely is that they didn’t really begin praying it until the 19th Century, when there was a great deal of pressure from Roman Catholic Poland for Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics to “Latinize.” Really this is all just speculation because, to my knowledge, there is no account of when exactly Eastern Catholics started adopting the Rosary. And it’s adoption certainly hasn’t been universal among the Eastern Catholic Churches. Here in the U.S. it seems to enjoy the most popularity among Ruthenian Catholics, whereas among the Melkites, for instance, it isn’t quite as popular.
If it was indeed St. Seraphim who added mysteries to the Rule, then it is highly likely that he was influenced by the Roman Rosary. That being said, he took that influence and gave it a particularly Eastern/Byzantine flare. Instead of just adopting the Roman mysteries you will find that he rather adapts the Rule to the major feasts and liturgical themes of Our Lady and Our Lord. But, as the history of the Rule itself is not well known, it is equally possible the St. Seraphim learned the Rule this way from another elder, and that the Rule itself always had these mysteries. In fact, I have heard it speculated that the Roman Rosary is in fact an adaptation of this Byzantine Rule of the Theotokos, rather than the other way around.
Roman Catholics can be encouraged to pray the Jesus Prayer on two counts. First, devotion to the Holy Name is every bit as strong in the West as in the East. The Jesus Pray is simply the repetition of the Holy Name. Secondly, it has always been a part of the Roman tradition to adopt and adapt bits and pieces from the East.
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Hesychios
Guest
Actually, this is not true.
One would be hard pressed to find any Roman Catholic parish anywhere that the local parish priest is teaching the Jesus prayer and encouraging his congregation to recite it.
Among eastern Christians the rosary has sometimes been promoted to the detriment of other genuine forms of eastern Christian spirituality. Sometimes it was due to missionaries, and sometimes it was due to native clergy who learned these western devotions in seminary. The problem is that many people came to see these as superior to their own tradition, when in fact they were not.
The most significant example I can think of is how it has displaced communal Divine Praises (LOTH) before liturgy. As you know the Liturgy of the Hours is the preeminent prayer of the church aside from the Mass, and for Byzantine Christians especially (perhaps for others as well) it is catechetical and central to the spirituality of the people. It is only when seen in this light (in the desire to encourage authentic spirituality) that the rosary is recognized as a potential problem. No one I know of objects to it as a prayer rule.
As a private devotion it is fine, but as in all things, some people will prefer one private devotion over another and each person will have his own reasons for that preference and one would see that expressed here.
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Splagchnizomai
Guest
Perhaps encouraged isn’t quite right, but it is mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2616 Prayer to Jesus is answered by him already during his ministry, through signs that anticipate the power of his death and Resurrection: Jesus hears the prayer of faith, expressed in words (the leper, Jairus, the Canaanite woman, the good thief or in silence (the bearers of the paralytic, the woman with a hemorrhage who touches his clothes, the tears and ointment of the sinful woman. The urgent request of the blind men, “Have mercy on us, Son of David” or “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” has been renewed in the traditional prayer to Jesus known as the Jesus Prayer: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!” Healing infirmities or forgiving sins, Jesus always responds to a prayer offered in faith: “Your faith has made you well; go in peace.”
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s1c1a2.htm
I’ve heard RC priests talk about the Jesus Prayer, but I haven’t yet heard an EC (UGCC) priest bring it up – not saying that this is a widespread fact, but only in my experience. I’ve seen the prayerful with prayer ropes at my local OCA.
I’m not sure I follow you here. Of course, the rosary is a private devotion (it isn’t anything else). When an EC prays the rosary, that person is seen as being “latinized” or inauthentic – as somehow less Eastern.
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Hesychios
Guest
Well, I personally agree with that, but I don’t object to the rosary itself, I prayed it a lot when I was younger. To each his own.
My position is this:
-1- … if any Byzantine Rite parish has rosary before Divine Liturgy but not Orthos, I think they need to reexamine their priorities.
-2- … if I was raising children today, I would teach them the Jesus Prayer among other devotions but I would not put the rosary on that list. What other people do in their own families is their business, but if they were to ask me that would be my advice.
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MrPip
Guest
Do you think that there is a perception (if that’s the correct word) amongst Eastern Christians, whether Orthodox or Catholic, that the Jesus Prayer discipline is somehow qualitatively “better” spiritually than the Rosary?
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Well, I think the two are on separate planes.
The Eastern Churches expect all Christians to invoke constantly the name of Jesus in the Jesus Prayer (as did St John Chrysostom and the other Fathers).
But let’s take a look at the Rosary itself. It originated in the Coptic Thebaid where saints would use various types of prayer counters (including knotches on their staffs) to pray 150 Our Fathers and Hail Marys and other prayers as a kind of replacement to the Psalter itself (although there were also those who memorized one psalm and recited it 150 times).
St Seraphim of Sarov was actually not, in all likelihood, influenced by the Western Rosary. The reason is that he not only promoted the 150 Hail Marys divided into decades, but also the ancient 150 Our Father’s or “Pater Noster Psalter” as it was called in the West. This is why in St Seraphim of Sarov’s version of the rule of the Theotokos, there is only one Our Father at the beginning, but none at the head of each of the decades . . .
And St Seraphim of Sarov did NOT include mysteries to meditate on during the recitation of his rule of the Theotokos - that was done by St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, a Russian Old Believer Archbishop (who was in union with the ROC), who was shot by the Bolsheviks in 1937 and who had a great veneration for St Seraphim of Sarov (whose name he took as a bishop and whose icon of the Virgin of Tenderness he wore as his episcopal Panaghia).
This New Martyr liked to include a Troparion that most closely coincided with the Mystery under consideration and this is the version that is included in the prayerbook I have but also in the Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy published at Moscow in 2003.
St Seraphim of Sarov, great mystic he was, said that he received visions from our Lady who urged him to promote the Rule/Rosary of the Theotokos and that THIS form of prayer is one that she places higher than any other as a way to invoke her protection over our lives and her intercession on our behalf!
At Diveyevo Monastery, there is the tradition of walking around the pathway that surrounds the great Monastery while reciting the Rule of the Theotokos (in some cases, I’ve read that this also includes the 150 Our Fathers). The nuns there do it together and on feast days they sing the Hail Mary’s.
But this is a private, not a liturgical prayer practice and is never recited in Church as such. It would not be in keeping with Eastern Church practice to pray it out loud in Church before Divine Liturgy for instance - no one is stopping anyone from praying it in private or in a group outside of that context.
There is also nothing wrong about adopting the Western Mysteries of the Rosary including the Mysteries of Light.
I love reciting all 20 decades of the Rosary daily with additional “tags” reflecting the Mysteries inserted toward the end of our Hail Mary. So far, I’ve felt no inclination to cross myself in the Latin way as a result, or to genuflect or even to take up the study of Latin so I can pray the Tridentine office . . .
There were Orthodox Saints who also prayed the Hail Mary as their form of the Jesus Prayer i.e. they continually recited the Hail Mary and were called “Elders of the Theotokos.” In the Way of the Pilgrim, the pilgrim meets a fellow who said the Hail Mary daily and he advised him to “always and continually pray that prayer to the Most Holy Theotokos.”
We shouldn’t worry - the Mother of God always takes us to her Son and when we are filled with thoughts of her and how glorious she is, that is when our Lord particularly finds our souls a worthy abode for Him! As St Theophan the Recluse said, just as mothers nourish their earthly children with their milk from their bodies, so too does the Mother of God nourish us, her children, through Holy Communion . . . Devotion to her, he wrote, is not like devotion to any other Saint . . .
As Phillip the Master Beadsman said, RC devotion to the Most Holy Name of Jesus is very inspiring. St Francis of Assisi, for instance, whenever he said the Name of Jesus, would stop and then put out his tongue to lick his lips. He said that when we say the Name of Jesus reverentially, it is like spiritual honey exploding in our mouths and we must take care to lick up any that might have dripped out onto our lips . . .
Alex
The Eastern Churches expect all Christians to invoke constantly the name of Jesus in the Jesus Prayer (as did St John Chrysostom and the other Fathers).
But let’s take a look at the Rosary itself. It originated in the Coptic Thebaid where saints would use various types of prayer counters (including knotches on their staffs) to pray 150 Our Fathers and Hail Marys and other prayers as a kind of replacement to the Psalter itself (although there were also those who memorized one psalm and recited it 150 times).
St Seraphim of Sarov was actually not, in all likelihood, influenced by the Western Rosary. The reason is that he not only promoted the 150 Hail Marys divided into decades, but also the ancient 150 Our Father’s or “Pater Noster Psalter” as it was called in the West. This is why in St Seraphim of Sarov’s version of the rule of the Theotokos, there is only one Our Father at the beginning, but none at the head of each of the decades . . .
And St Seraphim of Sarov did NOT include mysteries to meditate on during the recitation of his rule of the Theotokos - that was done by St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, a Russian Old Believer Archbishop (who was in union with the ROC), who was shot by the Bolsheviks in 1937 and who had a great veneration for St Seraphim of Sarov (whose name he took as a bishop and whose icon of the Virgin of Tenderness he wore as his episcopal Panaghia).
This New Martyr liked to include a Troparion that most closely coincided with the Mystery under consideration and this is the version that is included in the prayerbook I have but also in the Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy published at Moscow in 2003.
St Seraphim of Sarov, great mystic he was, said that he received visions from our Lady who urged him to promote the Rule/Rosary of the Theotokos and that THIS form of prayer is one that she places higher than any other as a way to invoke her protection over our lives and her intercession on our behalf!
At Diveyevo Monastery, there is the tradition of walking around the pathway that surrounds the great Monastery while reciting the Rule of the Theotokos (in some cases, I’ve read that this also includes the 150 Our Fathers). The nuns there do it together and on feast days they sing the Hail Mary’s.
But this is a private, not a liturgical prayer practice and is never recited in Church as such. It would not be in keeping with Eastern Church practice to pray it out loud in Church before Divine Liturgy for instance - no one is stopping anyone from praying it in private or in a group outside of that context.
There is also nothing wrong about adopting the Western Mysteries of the Rosary including the Mysteries of Light.
I love reciting all 20 decades of the Rosary daily with additional “tags” reflecting the Mysteries inserted toward the end of our Hail Mary. So far, I’ve felt no inclination to cross myself in the Latin way as a result, or to genuflect or even to take up the study of Latin so I can pray the Tridentine office . . .
There were Orthodox Saints who also prayed the Hail Mary as their form of the Jesus Prayer i.e. they continually recited the Hail Mary and were called “Elders of the Theotokos.” In the Way of the Pilgrim, the pilgrim meets a fellow who said the Hail Mary daily and he advised him to “always and continually pray that prayer to the Most Holy Theotokos.”
We shouldn’t worry - the Mother of God always takes us to her Son and when we are filled with thoughts of her and how glorious she is, that is when our Lord particularly finds our souls a worthy abode for Him! As St Theophan the Recluse said, just as mothers nourish their earthly children with their milk from their bodies, so too does the Mother of God nourish us, her children, through Holy Communion . . . Devotion to her, he wrote, is not like devotion to any other Saint . . .
As Phillip the Master Beadsman said, RC devotion to the Most Holy Name of Jesus is very inspiring. St Francis of Assisi, for instance, whenever he said the Name of Jesus, would stop and then put out his tongue to lick his lips. He said that when we say the Name of Jesus reverentially, it is like spiritual honey exploding in our mouths and we must take care to lick up any that might have dripped out onto our lips . . .
Alex
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Hesychios
Guest
I don’t think most people even think about it that way. It makes me think of the Jets and the Sharks
Nobody’s ‘comparing’ AFAIK, it’s not like there is a contest.
It would be like asking if people thought the Divine Mercy chaplet was better than the rosary, as if these are things in some sort of competition, which they should not be.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
At the same time, other than wrapping a Rosary around their rear-view mirror, most of my RC friends have no time for the rosary.
Why do you think that is?
Alex
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
Alex,
Would St. Seraphim of Sarov’s version of the Rule of the Theotokos look something more along the lines of the following:
Typical Trisagion prayers
150 Hail Marys
Closing prayers
If that’s the case, then the version I pray is much closer to his version than the other St. Seraphim’s. The only difference is that I pray an Our Father every for every 10 Hail Marys.
Would St. Seraphim of Sarov’s version of the Rule of the Theotokos look something more along the lines of the following:
Typical Trisagion prayers
150 Hail Marys
Closing prayers
If that’s the case, then the version I pray is much closer to his version than the other St. Seraphim’s.
The only difference is that I pray an Our Father every for every 10 Hail Marys.
M
MrPip
Guest
Because they’re knocked senseless by the Rosary swinging back and forth as it hangs on their rearview mirror while driving
?? Do they also have a plastic Jesus sittin’ on the dashboard ? Better they should put the Rosary in their hand and the prayer in their mouth and heart!Honestly, I have no idea why they don’t pray the Rosary. Do they go to Mass only to fulfill their “obligation”–like so many Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and Orthodox (many of whom never pray the Jesus Prayer) I’ve come across? If so, that might go some way towards explaining it.
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.”
Notice the invocation of the name of Jesus
.From my experience of praying both the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer (which I still do), I wouldn’t say that they are even on separate planes. They are just, well…different. Either can be used to help us “pray without ceasing”. But then, so can many other prayers.
Btw, thanks for the long discourse on the history and development!
P
Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
I remember hearing somewhere that Mother Teresa claimed to be always saying the Rosary. She prayed it so much that it became grafted to her heart (to use Eastern terminology). But you are certainly correct. The rosary and the Jesus Prayer are just different. One is not worse than the other. I believe even some of the Orthodox Fathers would be appalled at the thought of folks claiming one is superior to the other. For them prayer is prayer and all prayer has but one goal; communion with God.St. Theophan the Recluse wisely pointed out that one should choose a prayer or form of prayer that best serves to “draw the head into the heart.” This is often different from person to person. But the main thing is that we “stand before God with the head in the heart” and there commune with Him, contemplate Him, and allow Him to nourish us and mould us according to His image and likeness.
T
ThatOneGuy92
Guest
Only partially related, and in no way answers your question.
Growing up, my parents and my mum’s parents had a Rosary hanging in their rear-view mirror. When I got my first car, I hung up a Rosary as well; I plan to hang one back up again whenever I get another car.
Mind you, my family (at least the ones mentioned) is Lutheran.
I wonder what it means?
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Dear Master Beadsman,Alex,
Would St. Seraphim of Sarov’s version of the Rule of the Theotokos look something more along the lines of the following:
Typical Trisagion prayers
150 Hail Marys
Closing prayers
If that’s the case, then the version I pray is much closer to his version than the other St. Seraphim’s.
Yes indeed - with the difference that St Seraphim of Sarov added the Marian Troparion “Open to us the Gates of Mercy . . .” at the end (or beginning) of each decade of Hail Marys.
In the book, “Staretz Zechariah: An early Soviet Saint” in chapter six is the outline of the Rule with an Our Father and the above Troparion said at the beginning or end of each decade (mention is made of the practice of some to begin the decade with the Our Father and end it with the “Open to us the Gates of Mercy . . .”.
St Seraphim of Sarov promoted the recitation of 150 Our Father’s and 150 Hail Mary’s as one prayer (“pray this for all your relatives and friends, living and dead, and then ask for one particular needed favour - and it will be granted”).
I’m not sure that he did not include the Our Father as there are reports of several of his prayer rules.
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Pip, pip - hooray!Because they’re knocked senseless by the Rosary swinging back and forth as it hangs on their rearview mirror while driving
Honestly, I have no idea why they don’t pray the Rosary. Do they go to Mass only to fulfill their “obligation”–like so many Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and Orthodox (many of whom never pray the Jesus Prayer) I’ve come across? If so, that might go some way towards explaining it.
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.”
Notice the invocation of the name of Jesus
From my experience of praying both the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer (which I still do), I wouldn’t say that they are even on separate planes. They are just, well…different. Either can be used to help us “pray without ceasing”. But then, so can many other prayers.
Btw, thanks for the long discourse on the history and development!
You are right, of course - the two prayers are different but lead one to the same Mystery of the Divine Incarnate Word. All Christians should pray both daily.
The Eastern Hail Mary ends with “Christ the Saviour, the Redeemer of our Souls” or “the Saviour of our souls” with no invocation to our Lady at the end.
The early forms of the Western Hail Mary simply ended with “Thy womb, Jesus Christ” and as at Schrocken in the Vorarlberg Alps, different lines were added on to signify the various mysteries (in the case of the rosary of Schrocken, 63 separate lines or “tags”). And certainly your Hail Mary can be a forum of the Jesus Prayer as well.
The confraternities of the Rosary of old applied the prayer form of an Our Father followed by ten Hail Mary’s (made to resemble the ten-stringed Psaltery) to all sorts of themes - 12 decades to honour the 12 Apostles, nine to honour the nine choirs of Angels, five to honour the five main Wounds of Christ, seven to honour the seven main Blood-sheddings of Christ etc.
To bead or not to bead - there should be no question!
Alex
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