Byzantine Catholics and the Rosary

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Oh, by the way, The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology contains very nice explanations and descriptions of what we mean by imageless prayer.

 

[TimothyH]

Oh, by the way, The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology contains very nice explanations and descriptions of what we mean by imageless prayer.

I actually saw a copy of this in paperback at the local Barnes and Noble, along with Volume 1 of the PhiloIkalia, here in suburban Atlanta of all places, and thought that perhaps God was calling to read these two oddly placed titles.

I have considered getting that book, but have some books on St. Bernard to work through first, including a book on stages of prayer.

I may go back and grab that book, but will will put it on my list for sure now. Any recommendation on best version or best translation?

Thank you brother. I hope you and your wife and children are at peace.

-Tim-

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hey Tim,

To my knowledge there is only one version/translation of The Art of Prayer into English. It’s quite good. I’ve read through it twice, and several parts of it I’ve read through multiple other times as well. I’m starting to feel the need to return to it yet again.

The best translation of the Philokalia is considered to be the four (soon to be five [God willing]) volume translation done by G.E.H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard, and Met. Kallistos Ware. The volume you saw at Barnes and Noble is probably of this translation. I actually got all four volumes in my collection from Barnes and Noble (two of them were special order though).

If I had to choose between the two, I’d say definitely start with The Art of Prayer. It’s much easier to read, much more concise, and in many ways much more to the point. It’s sort of like the distilled version of the Philokalia.

The wife and children are all doing just fine, although my daughter has been rather grumpy today. My daughter, son, and myself are all recovering from being sick, and sadly it looks like my wife is coming down with the same cold. But otherwise we are fine. Still on the hunt for a job.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I dunno. We’re of German stock. In any case, I’ve gotten different answers from my family:
“It is a symbol of the Faith”
“To remind me to pray”
“It is what my parents taught me”
“I need all the help I can get”

The last one made me giggle, seeing as it was my Papa (mother’s father) that said this.

Despite my owning Rosaries, I have yet to actually pray the Rosary yet. Perhaps someday. I figure the Theotokos, wonderful mother that she is, understands that I am venturing cautiously, and I only wish to do what it right in God’s eyes. Given that, I’m sure she’ll put up with me not saying a decade for a while.

It is obvious that your family is highly spiritual to have given such answers to you! There is the High Church tradition among German Lutherans and I know of one German Lutheran pastor I befriended who does indeed pray the rosary.

I also wrote an akathist in honour of Jan Hus who is honoured in the Lutheran calendar (I wrote it for Protestant converts to Orthodoxy who wanted to honour Hus privately). That German Lutheran pastor translated the akathist and put parts of it to music - he told me his parish and some others have used it liturgically (this was some years back). So direct invocation of saints and worthies isn’t foreign to some Lutheran groups.

And Martin Luther prayed the rosary regularly, as we know and was often portrayed holding his beads. There is also a Lutheran rosary made specifically for Lutherans.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Forgive me for coming late to the party.

Phillip, this is extremely interesting to me.

Being very familiar with the rosary, I found, and still do find praying the Rule of St. Pachomius on the Chotki to be different in a way I could not describe. At first it felt barren, uncomfortable, but your use of the word “Imageless” explains a lot.

I’m wondering if anyone could expand on the word “Imageless”, provide a link, or some other source of information, either spiritual or theological?

Regarding the Rosary, for me it is meditation, and mediation is definitely based on images for me. There is a profound sense of entering into the scene, of being there, of witnessing it, and even sometimes of experiencing it in some small way myself. This is probably why I found the chotki to be so different. I would be interested in learning more about the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos as well and will google it, unless someone has some good info.

One variation of the rosary which I enjoy is according to the method of St. Louis de Montfort, which is to ask for the grace represented by the mystery on that particular decade. For example, when meditating on the Joyful Mysteries, one would pray before the first decade in honor of the Incarnation…

We offer Thee, O Lord Jesus, this first decade in honor of Thine Incarnation in Mary’s womb, and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through her intercession, a profound humility. Amen.

We would then pray the rosary as normal, meditating on the Incarnation, and conclude the decade with the following…

May the grace of the Mystery of the Annunciation come down into our souls and make us truly humble. Amen.

Similarly, one would ask for the grace to love poverty when meditating on the birth of Jesus in a stable or the grace to suffer well when meditating on the Crucifixtion.

The best instruction for the rosary I have seen, just to get the mechanics down, is How to Recite the Holy Rosary at New Advent.

-Pax-
-Tim-

As I understand it, “imageless prayer” is when we still the imagination and simply enclose our mind around the words of the prayer that we repeat, either the Jesus Prayer or the Hail Mary. We are to experience the Presence before us, usually via an icon or icons before which we pray. The “image” is, in a sense, taken from our minds and is represented by the icon before which we pray.

St Seraphim of Sarov would pray before his icon of Our Lady of Tender Feeling. He would simply pray the Jesus Prayer and the Hail Mary over and over again while gazing at the icon and experiencing the Prayer of the Heart. The icon of Our Lady of Tender Feeling is most suited to the Prayer of the Heart as it shows the Mother of God, at the moment of the Conception of our Lord at the Annunciation, looking down into her heart as she crosses her hands etc.

Methods of using the Jesus Prayer, with the guidance of an elder or other monastic/priest, would involve us “looking into our heart” as we pray. These types of methods must be done with the utmost caution.

Although I know it isn’t an Eastern devotion, for me, the image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus has always been another way of doing the Prayer of the Heart - I don’t know why that it, I only know that it is in my experience. There are icons of Christ the Lover of Mankind where our Lord is pointing to His Wounded Side - I have a large one in my icon-corner - and this is the same thing. Also, the beautiful icon of Our Lady with seven swords surrounding her soul is also excellent for this type of imageless prayer (imageless with respect to our own minds).

Eastern spirituality prefers not to use the imagination since it is so unruly and since evil thoughts/images can easily creep in.

The rosary, as envisioned by Montfort, was to be prayed with icons/images. He even had 15 church banners with pictures of the 15 mysteries which someone would hold up as the parish looked at it as they prayed the decades. That is entirely in keeping with “imageless prayer.” And the use of the “tag” of a few words placed into the Hail Mary to reflect the mystery where the Hail Mary becomes a refrain - that is my favourite way of praying the Most Holy Rosary.

I must say that the 20 mysteries where the entire lives of Christ and His Mother are pondered have become so important to me that I don’t know what I’d do without that form of prayer. For me, it is important to say it as well as possible every day to experience a real heavenly joy and internal blessing.

Alex

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

As I understand it, “imageless prayer” is when we still the imagination and simply enclose our mind around the words of the prayer that we repeat, either the Jesus Prayer or the Hail Mary. We are to experience the Presence before us, usually via an icon or icons before which we pray. The “image” is, in a sense, taken from our minds and is represented by the icon before which we pray.

St Seraphim of Sarov would pray before his icon of Our Lady of Tender Feeling. He would simply pray the Jesus Prayer and the Hail Mary over and over again while gazing at the icon and experiencing the Prayer of the Heart. The icon of Our Lady of Tender Feeling is most suited to the Prayer of the Heart as it shows the Mother of God, at the moment of the Conception of our Lord at the Annunciation, looking down into her heart as she crosses her hands etc.

Methods of using the Jesus Prayer, with the guidance of an elder or other monastic/priest, would involve us “looking into our heart” as we pray. These types of methods must be done with the utmost caution.

Although I know it isn’t an Eastern devotion, for me, the image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus has always been another way of doing the Prayer of the Heart - I don’t know why that it, I only know that it is in my experience. There are icons of Christ the Lover of Mankind where our Lord is pointing to His Wounded Side - I have a large one in my icon-corner - and this is the same thing. Also, the beautiful icon of Our Lady with seven swords surrounding her soul is also excellent for this type of imageless prayer (imageless with respect to our own minds).

Eastern spirituality prefers not to use the imagination since it is so unruly and since evil thoughts/images can easily creep in.

The rosary, as envisioned by Montfort, was to be prayed with icons/images. He even had 15 church banners with pictures of the 15 mysteries which someone would hold up as the parish looked at it as they prayed the decades. That is entirely in keeping with “imageless prayer.” And the use of the “tag” of a few words placed into the Hail Mary to reflect the mystery where the Hail Mary becomes a refrain - that is my favourite way of praying the Most Holy Rosary.

I must say that the 20 mysteries where the entire lives of Christ and His Mother are pondered have become so important to me that I don’t know what I’d do without that form of prayer. For me, it is important to say it as well as possible every day to experience a real heavenly joy and internal blessing.

Alex

Alex,

As usual you have said what I was trying to say in words much better and more suitable than the ones I used. God bless you.

ICXC + NIKA,
The Master Beadsman

 

[In_All_Things]

I’m Orthodox and I have a blessing from my spiritual father to pray the rosary in western form I even use rosary beads

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’m Orthodox and I have a blessing from my spiritual father to pray the rosary in western form I even use rosary beads

You have a very special and great spiritual father indeed! You are special yourself!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Alex,

As usual you have said what I was trying to say in words much better and more suitable than the ones I used. God bless you.

ICXC + NIKA,
The Master Beadsman

You are too kind and charitable, Master Beadsman - to a fault! That’s ok though, lots of time to go to confession before Pascha!

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

You are too kind and charitable, Master Beadsman - to a fault! That’s ok though, lots of time to go to confession before Pascha!

Cheers,

Alex

Thanks for reminding me that I need to get to confession before Pascha, Alex.

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I’m Orthodox and I have a blessing from my spiritual father to pray the rosary in western form I even use rosary beads

Would you happen to be Greek Orthodox? Just curious.

 

[hazcompat]

Forgive me for coming late to the party.

Phillip, this is extremely interesting to me.

Being very familiar with the rosary, I found, and still do find praying the Rule of St. Pachomius on the Chotki to be different in a way I could not describe. At first it felt barren, uncomfortable, but your use of the word “Imageless” explains a lot.

I’m wondering if anyone could expand on the word “Imageless”, provide a link, or some other source of information, either spiritual or theological?

Regarding the Rosary, for me it is meditation, and mediation is definitely based on images for me. There is a profound sense of entering into the scene, of being there, of witnessing it, and even sometimes of experiencing it in some small way myself. This is probably why I found the chotki to be so different. I would be interested in learning more about the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos as well and will google it, unless someone has some good info.

One variation of the rosary which I enjoy is according to the method of St. Louis de Montfort, which is to ask for the grace represented by the mystery on that particular decade. For example, when meditating on the Joyful Mysteries, one would pray before the first decade in honor of the Incarnation…

We offer Thee, O Lord Jesus, this first decade in honor of Thine Incarnation in Mary’s womb, and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through her intercession, a profound humility. Amen.

We would then pray the rosary as normal, meditating on the Incarnation, and conclude the decade with the following…

May the grace of the Mystery of the Annunciation come down into our souls and make us truly humble. Amen.

Similarly, one would ask for the grace to love poverty when meditating on the birth of Jesus in a stable or the grace to suffer well when meditating on the Crucifixtion.

The best instruction for the rosary I have seen, just to get the mechanics down, is How to Recite the Holy Rosary at New Advent.

-Pax-
-Tim-

For image-less prayer

On Cleaving to God
De Adhaerendo Deo by
St. Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church
D. Alberti Magni translated by John Richards
Latin and English Edition
Prepared for Saints’ Books

www.saintsbooks.net/books/St.%20Albert%20the%20Great%20-…

and

The Philokalia

books.google.com/books?id=ojhNMrna5DsC&dq=isbn:057119382X

peace

 

[hazcompat]

For the Philokalia

archive.org/details/philokalia

BTW Does anyone know where St. Seraphim of Sarov is buried/entombed?

peace

 

[Splagchnizomai]

For image-less prayer

On Cleaving to God
De Adhaerendo Deo by
St. Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church
D. Alberti Magni translated by John Richards
Latin and English Edition
Prepared for Saints’ Books

www.saintsbooks.net/books/St.%20Albert%20the%20Great%20-…

It’s interesting how this exists in the Western tradition too, though I’m hardly surprised. From the reports of so many EC/EO, one gets the impression that it just isn’t there.

 

[In_All_Things]

Would you happen to be Greek Orthodox? Just curious.

I actually belong to an OCA parish so I like to think of myself as American Orthodox

IX XC
NI KA,
David Seraphim

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I actually belong to an OCA parish so I like to think of myself as American Orthodox

IX XC
NI KA,
David Seraphim

I was just curious. In my experience the Greeks seem to be more open to Western devotions than the rest of Orthodoxy. But my experience is, admittedly, limited. I do know that your own Metropolitan Jonah (whom I highly respect and admire) had a Catholic Benedictine monk as a spiritual father for a time.

Although I belong to a Melkite parish, I too prefer to think of myself as an American Eastern/Byzantine Catholic.

 

[In_All_Things]

I love His Beatitude, although some of the OCA do not. That’s interesting about the Benedictine I didn’t know that

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I love His Beatitude, although some of the OCA do not. That’s interesting about the Benedictine I didn’t know that

Not to derail this thread, but I find it quite sad that some members of the OCA oppose His Beatitude so much. From what I’ve seen, the work he’s done within the OCA has set the Church on a track that can only possibly lead to Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. I’ve been fortunate enough to hear him preach on a couple of occasions and to attend a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy celebrated by himself. Judging by his words and actions, he truly has the good of the Church at heart.

His comment about having a Benedictine spiritual father at one point was made at the Orientale Lumen XIII conference, two or three years ago. Obviously he’s had spiritual fathers since then. I believe the Benedictine came before his time at Valaam monastery.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Just a note to say that Mr. Rolfe’s prayer ropes, divided into decades, is undoubtedly what the earliest Western Rosaries looked like as knotted cords.

His work is amazing and what is more, once you have one of his rosaries, chotki or lestovkas in your hand - you won’t be able to put it down.

I know I can’t . . . Happy Easter!

To bead or not to bead . . . there should be no question!

Alex

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Just a note to say that Mr. Rolfe’s prayer ropes, divided into decades, is undoubtedly what the earliest Western Rosaries looked like as knotted cords.

His work is amazing and what is more, once you have one of his rosaries, chotki or lestovkas in your hand - you won’t be able to put it down.

I know I can’t . . . Happy Easter!

To bead or not to bead . . . there should be no question!

Alex

Awww shucks!