Byzantine Liturgy

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Elvis_George said:
Bar Hearbeus
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so does it make sense to say Rome (Latin Rite), Constantinople (Byzantine Rite), and Alexandria (Coptic Rite) were the 3 main original rites/centers? And the West Syriac and East Syriac Rites came about later on?
 
No it was just that the 2 rites separated from each other later…there was always a Syriac rite
 
oh so it was originally just 1 Syriac Rite? originated in Antioch right? and they separated to West (Levant) and East (Mesopotamia).

In many ways the West Syriac looks so much similar to the Byzantine Rite.
 
yes! then there were the Maronites, who also developed some different practices of that of the West Syriac, many of which look peculiarly East Syriac! But nevertheless, the Maronites are still West Syriac, just the least hellenised in the whole of the West Syriac rite
 
yea I always got confused with the Maronites. They are grouped in the West Syriac category. But their liturgy (from the outside) looks just like the Novus Ordo Latin Mass.
 
Yeah thats cuz of of latinisations…the syro malabar church does half ad populum and half ad orientam…many churches do all ad populum and many also do full ad orientam
 
lastly - what about the Armenian Rite? They are an individual rite. they influenced of anything else? Like Byzantine or West Syriac?
 
O the Armenian rite is the West Syriac rite with many latin insertions 🙂 like the use of unleavened bread and their Latin hats (dont know the name lol!) But then they also do use veils without an iconclast, which shows the Antiochian influence
 
No I am Eastern Orthodox (Chalcedonian) but Constantinople got its liturgical foundation from Antioch, which was the closest ecclesial center before St. Constantine.

I also like the Syrian Orthodox alot. They are probably the largest or one of the largest denominations in the city where I work, and I have close relations with them.
 
But The West Syriac rite (the Syriac Orthodox church as part of them) are rlly Hellenised because Hellenistic thought of thinking was prominent in the Eastern Roman Empire…And yeah I am interested in them too especially the Indian branch, the Jacobite Syrian Church. they have some of the most beautiful churches (although they will lose all of those churches after the Piravom Church Verdict 😦)
 
There are 3 Oriental Orthodox Churches in Kerala, Malabar Independent Syrian Church (Not in communion with any other Oriental Orthodox Church but Oriental Orthodox in tradition and faith), The Jacobite Syrian (Under the Patriarch of Antioch), and the Malankara Orthodox. All 3 were 1 one church, but split. The MISC split after a delegate of the Patriarch was disrespected by the Malankara Metropolitan (The temporal ruler of the Syriac Orthodox church in India, or Malankara Church.) The delegate, Mor Gregorios consecrated a new Malankara Metropolitan Abraham Mar Coorilos. Abraham Mar Coorilos and the rival Malankara Metropolitan Mar Dionysus I fought with each other, with Mar Coorilos having support from the government. Eventually, Mar Dionysus complained to Cochin Maharaja who withdrew his support from Mar Coorilos. Mar Coorilos fled up North and made his new church. Many members of his Church eventually became Syro Malankara. The Church remains tiny. Next, a reformist moment that was instigated by the CMS (Anglican Missionaries) caused a split among the Church. The Patriarch sent a delegate to Kerala, who was Euyakim Mar Coorilos. The Malankara Metropolitan stepped down from his position and he became the Reesh Episcopa (an honorary title in the Jacobite Syrian Church.) Things got even more complicated when the main proponent of the reformist movement, Fr. Abraham sent his nephew Mathews Mar Athanasius to the Patriarch to be made the Malankara Metropolitan. The Malankara Metropolitans were all from a particular Pakalomattam family, which had members in both the Catholic and Syriac Orthodox factions. Mathews Mar Athanasius and Fr. Abraham were both from this family but Fr. Abraham could not be sent because he married (while he was a priest.) The Patriarch was looking for an intelligent priest to be made Metropolitan, and Mathews Mar Athanasius was especially intelligent was learned in the Bible. The Patriarch did not know that he was not sent with the synod’s recommendation and so ordained him. When he was ordained, he spread havoc in the Church. Fr.Abraham translated the Holy Qurbana to Malayalam and removed parts dedicated to the Virgin Mary or parts praying for the souls of the dead (the concept of Purgatory was not considered doctrine by both the Catholics and Syriac Orthodox in India at the time.) He also translated the Bible to Malayalam. This angered the majority of the Syriac Orthodox, who added the prayers to the Virgin Mary back to the Qurbana. After his death, Fr. Abraham’s son Thomas Mar Athanasius became Metropolitan. By this time, a rival Malankara Metropolitan had been made, who Joseph Mar Dionysus III. Thomas Mar Athanasius filed a case against Joseph Mar Dionysus III. The reformist faction had won because the British ruled at the time. The reformist faction took many churches. Joseph Mar Dionysus III distressed, appealed to the Patriarch Peter III, who finally realized his mistake. The Patriarch then persuaded the British, and they filed a suit against Thomas Mar Athanasius. Joseph Mar Dionysus won and the reformist faction formed their own Church, the Mar Thoma church
 
After this, the Patriarch directly came to India and conducted the Synod of Mulanthuruthy. During this time, The Patriarch divided the region into several dioceses, so there was many bishops instead of 1. The Malankara Metropolitan was the main one of these bishops. A Catholicate was asked for by the Malankara Metropolitan, which was refused. The next Patriarch Abded Mshiho II, was also asked to do so, but refused. He was eventually was deposed for unknown reasons. The next Patriarch was Abded Aloho Sattuf. He consecrated the next Malankara Metropolitan, Geevarghese Mar Dionysus, A designate of the Malankara Metropolinate Paulose Mar Coorilos, and Dioscoros Mar Thomas (who eventually became Catholic), the bishop of the newly formed Knanaya diocese. Geevarghese Mar Dionysus had a bitter fight with his Co trustees, who complained this to the Patriarch. The Patriarch came to Kerala, and asked the Geevarghese Mar Dionysus to solve the issue. Geevarghese Mar Dionysus refused, and told the Patriarch to stop interfering in the matters of the Malankara Church. The Patriarch stepped down. Upset, he went to most Churches in Central Kerala and asked them to sign a contract that stated that he was their leader. Geevarghese Mar Dionysus, angered stated that the Abded Aloho had interfered in the Matters of the Malankara Church by consecrating bishops (although he was one of those bishops consecrated by him.) He was excommunicated, but many bishops refused to accept the Excommunication. He was especally upset. This is when the monk Timothios enters the scene. He went to the deposed Patriarch and asked him to consecrate a Catholicos. It was worth noting that before the Patriarch had refused to give them a Catholicos. They chose the retired bishop of Kandanad and made him the new Catholicos
 
The Churches who had signed the contract with Patriarch Abded Aloho continued to be under his control. The Patriarch had ordained a new Malankara Metropolitan, Paulose Mar Coorilos. Fast forward to 1934. Here, Geevarghese Mar Dionysus and his companions started making a constitution of the Malankara Church. Pissed of, the Patriarch faction (now known as the Jacobites) established a meeting a Karingachira and made a constitution, although it was not used. The Constitution got governmental support. Geevarghese Mar Dionysus then dies. While this happens, the 2 factions are now 2 different factions. The Malankara Metropolitan of the Jacobites is Paulose Mar Athanasius while the other faction is now known as the Orthodox faction. The Monk Timothy is now a bishop but changes his faction. He becomes the new Catholicos. During his reign, he reunites with the Patriarch and the Malankara church becomes 1 again. This is short-lived, however, when the Patriarch states that the 1934 constitution will only cause the downfall of the Church and that the Throne of St Thomas is a lie. He stated that the Malankara Metropolitan maybe a successor of St Thomas but he is not sitting on the Throne of St Thomas. St Thomas does not have Throne that is equal to the Throne of St Peter, which the Patriarchs of Antioch have claimed to have descended from
 
The 2 Churches Split again, and this time for Good. The Patriarch then established the Catholicos of India for the Jacobite faction. Who owns which Church however, was highly disputed and eventually the Orthodox faction went to the Supreme Court of India and won, only because of the constituition of 1934 (the constitution states that the Malankara church is under the Patriarch, but the Catholicos must be able to also vote for the Patriarch. After the seperation of the 2 factions, the orthodox have decided to avoid the Patriarch and the Jacobite have deicded to avoid the Malankara Metropolitan/ Catholicos of the East.) So many churches, although mostly Jacobite, are now being given to the Orthodox and the Jacobites are being Churchless. A major example is Piravom church, which according to tradition, the 3 kings had visited the church. although the court said all 100- jacobite churches were to be handed over to the Orthodox, only 30 have been so far, and in many churches there have been only as little as 8 orthodox families…
 
Thank you for that history.

I had no idea about the tribulations St. Thomas Christians have faced even within your own Church and also the background of the different factions.

May the Lord have mercy and bring His true unity to all Christians who trace their lineage to the Holy Apostle Thomas.
 
O the Catholic Nasranis have faced even more tribulations ! The Orthodox factions are…um…very political… lol
 
Alexandria2020 said:
the nearest Ruthenian Church near me is 11 miles away. 20 minutes away.
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That’s probably about average for how long our parishioners drive to get to liturgy, although over an hour isn’t rare.
Elvis_George said:
How many Eparchies Do you guys have here?
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Our Metropolitan is also the highest-ranking Catholic clergyman in the US, being the head a sui juris church.

The phonex Eparchy (formerly Van Nuys) is pretty much the eastern half of the US. I think there is a parish in NJ with about the population fo our Eparchy 😱
Alexandria2020 said:
Metropolia of Pittsburgh (USA) (one archeparchy, three suffragan eparchies)
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And sui juris, a church in its own right, not part of the same particular church as those other two.
 
dochawk said:
And sui juris , a church in its own right, not part of the same particular church as those other two.
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so the Pittsburgh archbishop is the head of the whole sui juris church? so what about the European dioceses like the Ukranian one? are they separate?
 
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