CAF Bible Study - James

[MariaG]

9: Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation,
10: and the rich in his humiliation, because like the flower of the grass he will pass away.
11: For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits.
12: Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.
13: Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;
14: but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
15: Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
16: Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17: Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
18: Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
19: Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger,
20: for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.
21: Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22: But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23: For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;
24: for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
25: But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.
26: If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain.
27: Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Marking the thread,how have I missed this thread for so long?

 

[MTD]

I do understand that there is a difference between belief and faith but I need some assistance clarifying it.

Belief is the acceptance of something as true; the virtue faith is a gift given by God that enables one to accept His revelations as true.

To me he’s telling us that even if we have faith but don’t do anything about it, no good works, we are no better than demons. Am I off base here or is there more to it that I’m missing? To me it seems simple, but I felt at a loss trying to explain it to a Protestant.

You’re pretty well on base! That’s the whole problem with Protestantism. If there is no infallible interpreter of Sacred Scripture, one could basically twist the meaning to whatever he wants it to mean. There’s no end to the number of interpretations possible. Anyway…

The D-R Haydock commentary says: “S. James compares indeed faith without other virtues and good works to the faith of devils; but comparisons must never be stretched farther than they are intended. The meaning is that such a faith in sinners is unprofitable to salvation, like that of devils, which is no more than a conviction from their knowledge of God; but faith which remains in sinners is from a supernatural knowledge, together with a pious motion in their free will.”

To me this one verse can some up, and screams, that faith and works must both be present. It also seems to strongly appose the Protestant theory that true faith will just produce good works.

The Protestant theory sure isn’t supported by Jesus’ words in Matt. 7:21-23:

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
No one is going to acknowledge Jesus as Lord unless he believes; likewise, prophesying, casting out devils, and working miracles are also the work of faith. But Jesus expressly says that such people of faith will not gain automatic entrance into heaven; He says they must also do the will of God if they wanted to be admitted to heaven. There is a heavy implication here that faith can exist without works.

The body does not produce the spirit and visa versa the spirit does not produce the body. Just as faith does not produce good works and good works do not produce faith. The two can’t be separated, either one on its own is dead.

Quite true; however, James does say that good works are an indication of faith, but it doesn’t appear that faith is an indication of good works. 18: But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

Maria

 

[Cross-checking]

Thanks for all these posts. They are all very helpful and exactly the kind of information and clarification I needed. I’m really glad I’m on this thread. Thanks again!

 

[dbacks5439]

Just to throw it out there, the Greek word for work in this letter is different than the word for work in other parts of Paul’s letters which refer to works of the law. That’s why no one had a problem with this because it’s understood in the Greek context; however, bring in english and the meaning is somewhat lost.

 

[Pug]

Just to throw it out there, the Greek word for work in this letter is different than the word for work in other parts of Paul’s letters which refer to works of the law. That’s why no one had a problem with this because it’s understood in the Greek context; however, bring in english and the meaning is somewhat lost.

Could you cite for us a verse from James and a verse from St. Paul that illustrate this? That way it will be easy to see what you mean.

James uses ergon in verse 2:24 (the not by faith alone verse). St. Paul uses ergon in Eph2:9 and Rom3:28, two rather often used verses about works.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Maria, Guanophore, Pug, Vern Humphrey:

I believe you’ve thoroughly answered Cross-Checking’s question with one or two possible exceptions.

The first is that, as has been illustrated on this thread, St. Paul and St. James were using different terms and meanings for “works” - St. Paul described the Works of the Law demanded under the Old Covenant and by the Judaisers, while St. James described the Works of Charity required under the New Covenant and by our Lord Jesus Christ.

The second is that the Protestants have caused Cross-Checking to concentrate on arguing over one “proof-text” instead of looking at what the whole Scripture in context has to say:

From James 2 in the New International Version

*What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.*

James 2:14-26 NIV

And then ask them about this one from Hebrews 6:

*It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.*

Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV

I found that last one to be really quite bracing. Hebrews has 3 such warnings - Now, I know why the Prostestants wanted to throw it out along with the Epistle of James.

I hope that this closes the subject of CC’s discussion with his Prostestant friend. As CM has stated, this really is not a debate thread, and we need to learn what God has to say to us in this Epistle, and what we can learn from it.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[MTD]

The first is that, as has been illustrated on this thread, St. Paul and St. James were using different terms and meanings for “works” - St. Paul described the Works of the Law demanded under the Old Covenant and by the Judaisers, while St. James described the Works of Charity required under the New Covenant and by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I personally think St. James is talking about more than just works of charity. This is what I meant when I posted this:

21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,

Although St. James gives a charitable work as an example of an active faith, I think he cites Abraham because he is also talking about obedience to God as being the fulfillment of faith.

If Abraham had not obeyed God’s command to sacrifice Isaac, he could not be said to have had true faith in God. If he would have just said, “Yes, I believe You will fulfill Your promise even if I sacrifice Isaac at Your command” but did not obey God’s command to sacrifice Isaac, he would have been a liar. He would have been paying God mere lip-service. Truly, of those who say they have faith in God but do not express it in works can be said: “This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.” (Matt. 15:8; Isaiah 29:13)

Note that immediately before talking about faith without works being dead, he talks about the Commandments; then, to summarize and give an example of faith being fulfilled in works, he gives the example of Abraham obeying God’s command. Sacrificing Isaac was not really a work of charity/mercy. It was a work of justice and obedience to God.

14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16: and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

I believe St. James gives this example not because he is saying that the works he is talking about are works of mercy/charity but because he is illustrating how faith by itself doesn’t accomplish anything. In other words, simpy saying that someone should be clothed and fed does nothing to bring about that clothing and feeding; the saying must be accompanied by the doing in order for the clothing and feeding to actually take place. Likewise, believing in God by itself does nothing to save oneself; the believing must be accompanied by works if the saving is really to be accomplished.

The real example of faith accompanied by works is the story of Abraham. And I think it sheds light on what works St. James is talking about: obeying the commandments. Now if you think about it, this includes works of charity/mercy because Jesus gave us a new commandment: love one another as I have loved you (John 13:34). So I’m not saying St. James isn’t talking about works of charity/mercy, but I do think that’s not really what he primarily means when he talks about works.

Does this make any sense?

Maria

 

[Efrain]

How I see it Jesus expects us to do good works. Obviously we know that faith alone is not pleasing to our Lord and is not enough to save us. What one might think is good works, whether it may be works of the Law or works of charity are still fall short of pleasing the Lord if they do not stem out from our faith in Him and if the works are not acompanied with love (agape). These works that are required from us are not only to prove our love for the Lord but also for the building up of His Body, the Church. Like children of God and brothers and sisters to each other we need to always operate with love with one another which is the 2nd greatest comandment. All the while we are building up treasures in heaven not only for our sake but for the bretheren. This is what the communion of saints is all about. By loving each other we through good works with faith we please God and is what is required from each one of us.

 

[Cross-checking]

The second is that the Protestants have caused Cross-Checking to concentrate on arguing over one “proof-text” instead of looking at what the whole Scripture in context has to say:

A point of clarification on my part. My discussion that I had was with a Protestant that I didn’t know and have not had the chance to meet or discuss anything again and probably won’t. My intent was not to find a way to argue one proof-text; it just so happened that he caught me on that particular point and I have been pondering it ever since. I did, and do, use the whole context of scripture in discussions as well as my general studies. And it was using scripture in context which allowed me to maintain credibility in the discussion and not fall into the trap of focusing on a single proof-text. As I stated, I had been pondering that point and wanted some other insight about it so I brought it up here. I have received very good (name removed by moderator)ut and perspectives from everyone, thanks. So yes my question has been thoroughly answered and let’s move on.

 

[Church_Militant]

A point of clarification on my part. My discussion that I had was with a Protestant that I didn’t know and have not had the chance to meet or discuss anything again and probably won’t. My intent was not to find a way to argue one proof-text; it just so happened that he caught me on that particular point and I have been pondering it ever since. I did, and do, use the whole context of scripture in discussions as well as my general studies. And it was using scripture in context which allowed me to maintain credibility in the discussion and not fall into the trap of focusing on a single proof-text. As I stated, I had been pondering that point and wanted some other insight about it so I brought it up here. I have received very good (name removed by moderator)ut and perspectives from everyone, thanks. So yes my question has been thoroughly answered and let’s move on.

Good point.

 

[Church_Militant]

James, chapter 3
1: Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.
2: For we all make many mistakes, and if any one makes no mistakes in what he says he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.
3: If we put bits into the mouths of horses that they may obey us, we guide their whole bodies.
4: Look at the ships also; though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs.
5: So the tongue is a little member and boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by a small fire!
6: And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell.
7: For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by humankind,
8: but no human being can tame the tongue – a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
9: With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the likeness of God.
10: From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brethren, this ought not to be so.
11: Does a spring pour forth from the same opening fresh water and brackish?
12: Can a fig tree, my brethren, yield olives, or a grapevine figs? No more can salt water yield fresh.
13: Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good life let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
14: But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.
15: This wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish.
16: For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.
17: But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity.
18: And the harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

 

[Church_Militant]

This particular passage was one of the first I ever read and it hit home like a nuke.

I have historically had the capacity not to just peal the paint off the wall but to chip the concrete and brick as well, so this chapter has always been the reminder for me to mind my mouth…and the call to repentance when I have not.

Psalm 19:14 says, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer. "
One place in the New Testament where Our Lord speaks about what comes out of our mouths is Matthew 12:34: You brood of vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35: The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
36: I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter;
37: for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ (Luke 18:13)

 

[MariaG]

While I am reminded about my mouth when I read this, I have always been struck more by the caution it gives us specifically to those who teach in verse one.

Those who are teachers will be held to a higher standard. And we need to watch our mouths.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[vern_humphrey]

While I am reminded about my mouth when I read this, I have always been struck more by the caution it gives us specifically to those who teach in verse one.

Those who are teachers will be held to a higher standard. And we need to watch our mouths.

God Bless,
Maria

Me granddad, Captain Jack Clooney, used to quote a fine old Irish proverb, “There’s many a man whose mouth has broken his nose.”

 

[MariaG]

Me granddad, Captain Jack Clooney, used to quote a fine old Irish proverb, “There’s many a man whose mouth has broken his nose.”

 

[Efrain]

James 3:1-12. In my NAB there is a footnote that leads to Sirach 5:11, 6:1, 28: 12-26 and after reading and reflecting on His Word I had to literaly bite my tongue and really watch what I had to say. Ouch! Lord have mercy on me a sinner! I can definitely relate to CM. We must use our tongues for the building up of His Body not be like a hipocrite and engage in gosip and cursing others no matter how intersting a conversation may be or how much we may dislike someone. If we cannot hold our tongues we cannot be teachers of the Gospel James 3:1.

James 3:13-18. If we are able to hold our tongue we nurture wisdom, understanding, humility. The wisdom that is from above (contrary to the wisdom of that is earthly, unspiritual, demonic) is pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. Isn’t wisdom a beautiful gift we recieve when we tame our tongues?

 

[katy]

I try to imagine a filter between my brain and my mouth, hoping it catches what shouldn’t come thru. It seems to help, but things still get thru that shouldn’t.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

A point of clarification on my part. My discussion that I had was with a Protestant that I didn’t know and have not had the chance to meet or discuss anything again and probably won’t. My intent was not to find a way to argue one proof-text; it just so happened that he caught me on that particular point and I have been pondering it ever since. I did, and do, use the whole context of scripture in discussions as well as my general studies. And it was using scripture in context which allowed me to maintain credibility in the discussion and not fall into the trap of focusing on a single proof-text. As I stated, I had been pondering that point and wanted some other insight about it so I brought it up here. I have received very good (name removed by moderator)ut and perspectives from everyone, thanks. So yes my question has been thoroughly answered and let’s move on.

Cross-Checking:

I guess you could say I made a conclusion based on an assumption. I thought the Protestant had put you in a cul-de-sac based on a single verse.

I was wrong. Please forgive me.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Pug]

I try to imagine a filter between my brain and my mouth, hoping it catches what shouldn’t come thru. It seems to help, but things still get thru that shouldn’t.

Watching my own tongue is a scary thing. I remember this verse:

11: Does a spring pour forth from the same opening fresh water and brackish?

A verse like this really makes you wonder upon seeing something brackish come from your own mouth…you go back and question some of the “fresh” things you thought came out. It reminds me of Jesus saying:

"That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts,…

When brackish words flow out, it is from my lack of a pure heart, I feel. I don’t mean to sound all depressing, but my best solution is to fill my heart with good things. That modern “garbage in garbage out” thing is a useful analogy. If I think about the right stuff, read the right stuff, etc., I hope this will result in the right stuff coming out of my mouth.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

This particular passage was one of the first I ever read and it hit home like a nuke.

I have historically had the capacity not to just peal the paint off the wall but to chip the concrete and brick as well, so this chapter has always been the reminder for me to mind my mouth…and the call to repentance when I have not.

Psalm 19:14 says, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer. "
One place in the New Testament where Our Lord speaks about what comes out of our mouths is Matthew 12:34: You brood of vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35: The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
36: I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter;
37: for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ (Luke 18:13)

Church MIlitant:

Add then Matthew 15:10-11, 17-18:

Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ "

…

Jesus asked them. "Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’

**Matt 15:10-11, 17-18 NIV **

These - from Psalm 5 & Psalm 15
*Give ear to my words, O LORD,
consider my sighing.

Listen to my cry for help,
my King and my God,
for to you I pray.

the morning, O LORD, you hear my voice;
in the morning I lay my requests before you
and wait in expectation.*
Psalm 5:1-3 NIV
*LORD, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
Who may live on your holy hill?

He whose walk is blameless
and who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from his heart

and has no slander on his tongue,
who does his neighbor no wrong
and casts no slur on his fellowman,*
Psalm 15:1-3 NIV
And - This from 1 Peter 3

*Summing up: Be agreeable, be sympathetic, be loving, be compassionate, be humble. That goes for all of you, no exceptions. No retaliation. No sharp-tongued sarcasm. Instead, bless—that’s your job, to bless. You’ll be a blessing and also get a blessing. *

• Whoever wants to embrace life
  and see the day fill up with good,
  Here’s what you do:
  Say nothing evil or hurtful;
  Snub evil and cultivate good;
  run after peace for all you’re worth.
  God looks on all this with approval,
  listening and responding well to what he’s asked;
  But he turns his back
  on those who do evil things.*
  1 Peter 3:8-12 The Message
  Your Brother in Christ, Michael