CAF Bible Study - The Gospel of John

[Church_Militant]

John Chapter 16

[1] "I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away.
[2] They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.
[3] And they will do this because they have not known the Father, nor me.
[4] But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you of them. “I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.
[5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, Where are you going?' [6] But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. [7] Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. [8] And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: [9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; [10] concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more; [11] concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. [12] "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. [14] He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. [15] All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. [16] "A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me." [17] Some of his disciples said to one another, "What is this that he says to us, A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, because I go to the Father'?" [18] They said, "What does he mean by a little while’? We do not know what he means.”
[19] Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him; so he said to them, "Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, `A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’?
[20] Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.
[21] When a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she is delivered of the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a child is born into the world.
[22] So you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.
[23] In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.
[24] Hitherto you have asked nothing in my name; ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
[25] “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father.
[26] In that day you will ask in my name; and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you;
[27] for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father.
[28] I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
[29] His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure!
[30] Now we know that you know all things, and need none to question you; by this we believe that you came from God.”
[31] Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe?
[32] The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me.
[33] I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

 

[maryj]

once we are convinced we can convict.
No pain…no gain
No guts…no glory
What a message. He told them of the pain they were going to experience, but the joy that followed…ah what’s a little pain. No dead end here, life isn’t easy…but what follows?
Ps.126:5 Those that sow in tears shall reap rejoicing.

Is anyone interested in this thread anymore??

 

[Church_Militant]

once we are convinced we can convict.
No pain…no gain
No guts…no glory
What a message. He told them of the pain they were going to experience, but the joy that followed…ah what’s a little pain. No dead end here, life isn’t easy…but what follows?
Ps.126:5 Those that sow in tears shall reap rejoicing.

That reminds me a great deal of what St. Polycarp said during his trial.

CHAPTER 11

11:1 But the proconsul said unto him, I have wild beasts; I will deliver thee unto them, unless thou repentest. But he said, Call them, for repentance from the better to the worse is impossible for us; but it is a good thing to change from evil deeds to just ones.

11:2 But he said again unto him, I will cause thee to be consumed by fire if thou despisest the wild beasts, unless thou repentest. But Polycarp said, Thou threatenest me with fire that burneth but for a season, and is soon quenched. For thou art ignorant of the fire of the judgment to come, and of the eternal punishment reserved for the wicked. But why delayest thou? Bring whatever thou wishest.

Is anyone interested in this thread anymore??

Well of course I am, but I try to hold back to give everyone else time to respond to whatever they find of interest. Hopefully it isn’t dying off since it certainly has been good so far.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Indyann]

Is anyone interested in this thread anymore??

I am still interested, but I am pretty much the quiet type.

I know I have read the answer to this question before, but in my senior moment, I cannot readily recall the explanation.

Verse 7. Why did Jesus have to go away BEFORE the Counselor could come? Being that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same, could not the Holy Spirit have inspired the apostles while Christ was still with them?

 

[Church_Militant]

I am still interested, but I am pretty much the quiet type.

I know I have read the answer to this question before, but in my senior moment, I cannot readily recall the explanation.

Verse 7. Why did Jesus have to go away BEFORE the Counselor could come? Being that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same, could not the Holy Spirit have inspired the apostles while Christ was still with them?

That’s a real good question, and aside from saying that that is perhaps how God deigned for it to happen I don’t know. Anyone have insights to offer?

 

[Nita]

Just off the top of my head I would say that the coming of the Holy Spirit upon mankind was contingent upon our redemption. Thus, Jesus had to die on the cross - “go away”- before the grace of the Spirit’s presence would be restored to fallen man.

Will check out some commentaries and see if I can find anything.

Nita

 

[maryj]

I started to type out a response and none of it sounded right. So I have to say I have no idea, except that Jesus is truth and light. How much more light could there be? Only until they were plunged into darkness was light needed. I have no idea.

 

[maryj]

I’ve e-mailed a Priest friend, I’ll post his response when it comes.

 

[Indyann]

I’ve e-mailed a Priest friend, I’ll post his response when it comes.

Actually I was misreading the words “will not come” as “cannot come”, which seemed to be limiting the power of God.

But when it is read “the Counselor will not come”, it makes much more sense.

Christ HAD to “go away” in order to fulfill scripture. But the Counselor was to be sent to take His place, so to speak.

Interested to hear what your friend says about it. Thanks!

 

[Nita]

The following is from St. Gregory on vs 7 - "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;…’:

If I withdraw not My body from your eyes, I cannot lead you to the understanding of the Invisible, through the Comforting Spirit.

Nita

 

[Nita]

I was thinking that Jesus’ promise of the Holy Spirit here refers not only to His presence in each individual, but also to the Spirit’s presence in the Church. I love St. Augustine’s insight - *“What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church.” *(CCC #797)

Verse 8, (“And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment;”) seems to speak more of the Holy Spirit’s activity through the witness of the whole Church, or communities of believers. Augustine again:

The world is reproved of sin, because it believes not in Christ, and reproved of righteousness, the righteousness of those that believe. The very contrast of the believing, is the censure of the unbelieving.

Nita

 

[katy]

I wonder if he had to leave and the Spirit come so that they would go out into the wider world and spread the Gospel. Perhaps Jesus needed to be there physically to get them started, but needed to leave them so they could go on the next phase.

 

[NotWorthy]

According to John’s Gospel, Jesus performed signs to make us believe in Him. This showed us that God was dwelling in our midst.

The Holy Spirit comes to dwell with us in Spirit in no less a way than Jesus did in flesh. The Holy Spirit dwells with us in order that we may someday dwell with God in Heaven.

I think the key to Jesus leaving and the Holy Spirit lies in what Jesus will say to Thomas in John 20 - “Do you believe because you see, Thomas? Blessed are those who haven’t seen and yet still believe” (paraphrasing).

If Jesus were to stay with us, and we can see the miracles first-hand, then our faith would be no better than Thomas. We would believe “because we have seen”. The Holy Spirit works through Faith. We don’t see Him (unless we are looking, mind you) and yet we still believe. This is the Faith that Jesus calls Blessed!!!

A note to those who are worried that no one is reading this thread.

I’m still reading the thread, as I’m sure many people are. I just don’t have the extra time that I used to have that allowed me to participate more actively in the postings. That may change in the future, but please, keep putting your thoughts on this thread, as I, and I’m sure many others, value them highly.

 

[Church_Militant]

[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Meanwhile, as we wait for further enlightenment on the Holy Spirit coming after Our Lord Ascends.

I read this verse, (after just seeing someone [an n-C]) espouse pre-destination, and someone else, OSAS, and thought to myself, “Well those two have no merit based upon this verse.”

 

[katy]

I truly do not see how OSAS can be acceptable by anyone who reads more of the Bible than just a few set texts out of context. It seems like more of a superstition to me.

 

[NotWorthy]

I truly do not see how OSAS can be acceptable by anyone who reads more of the Bible than just a few set texts out of context. It seems like more of a superstition to me.

I don’t know if it’s superstition or simply a desire for “welfare theology”. I want to get something for nothing.

 

[maryj]

So for clarification, just exactly what does “abide in me” really mean.
Still waiting on the good reverend to reply to my email. He runs a Nueman center, so he’s a busy guy, but I have faith he will respond soon.

 

[NotWorthy]

So for clarification, just exactly what does “abide in me” really mean.
Still waiting on the good reverend to reply to my email. He runs a Nueman center, so he’s a busy guy, but I have faith he will respond soon.

I thought abide in me means that you exist in Christ, just as Christ exists in you. When you Abide in Him, you are a part of the Body of Christ.

Jesus uses the term “abide in me” twice in John’s Gospel.

The first time in chapter 6 when He talks of eating His body and His Blood. In this usage, the person WILL abide in Him (future tense) if they eat His Body and drink His Blood.

The second time after the Passover (after the Apostles have taken part in the Paschal meal). He talks of “abiding in him” as if they are to remain abiding in him. Or put it this way, they are abiding in Him already, and if they continue to abide in Him then they will have eternal life.

 

[Church_Militant]

I truly do not see how OSAS can be acceptable by anyone who reads more of the Bible than just a few set texts out of context. It seems like more of a superstition to me.

Yeah, and I have found that it varies from n-C community to community as to who believes what with regard to this. It is not something that is consistently believed. Southern Baptists for instance generally do teach it and the Assembly of God do not.

I don’t know if it’s superstition or simply a desire for “welfare theology”. I want to get something for nothing.

I often think of it as a sort of spiritual “security blanket” (perhaps that is because one of the names for OSAS is “eternal security of the believer”). I mean. I feel secure in Christ, but I also know that if I deny Him He will deny me.

So for clarification, just exactly what does “abide in me” really mean.
Still waiting on the good reverend to reply to my email. He runs a Nueman center, so he’s a busy guy, but I have faith he will respond soon.

I was thinking about that very thing when I blogged the following on How Is A Catholic Saved?

I thought abide in me means that you exist in Christ, just as Christ exists in you. When you Abide in Him, you are a part of the Body of Christ.

I always think that it has more to do with taking up my cross daily and following Him. (Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38, and 16:24) and not looking back once having taken hold of the plow. (Luke 9:62)

Jesus uses the term “abide in me” twice in John’s Gospel.

The first time in chapter 6 when He talks of eating His body and His Blood. In this usage, the person WILL abide in Him (future tense) if they eat His Body and drink His Blood.

And if one “symbolizes” that passage then it become nonsense.

The second time after the Passover (after the Apostles have taken part in the Paschal meal). He talks of “abiding in him” as if they are to remain abiding in him. Or put it this way, they are abiding in Him already, and if they continue to abide in Him then they will have eternal life.

Very well stated.

 

[maryj]

abide-to accept without rejection?