Cafeteria Catholicism

  • Thread starter Thread starter John_of_Woking
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh, and I meant to say on the babies in church issue…and, I have to break it up into two parts…

It is certainly a far greater challenge when the child belongs to you or is related, than if it is simply a stranger’s.

I will share with you what prompted my realization that I was doing this subconscious “baby-watching” during Mass. I visited a nearby parish that is more traditional. I went for several reasons, but one of them was that there was an orchestral Mass with stringed symphony and choir. Boy was it packed. The pastor, who has a Masters degree in music, directs this thing. It’s unbelievable, especially to hear it in an old style acoustic church.

So many things were different in this parish from 6-7 parishes to which I had either belonged or visited that they were noteworthy. Among them was how people in the church do not talk or make much eye contact. At first, it struck me as cold, but I decided not be judgmental about the people or their practices. Something told me to simply “suspend” any thoughts and just try to let it play itself out to see where it leads. It took only 3 days and surely was a grace from God, this understanding.

I realized that the reason these people did not converse in the church and did not make eye contact was because they were deeply focused on God. It’s not that they didn’t want to greet me or nod, or make eye contact. They simply were so absorbed in their prayer they didn’t really notice me. People walk with their heads down, slow and reserved. This does not mean that they are condescending on themselves, rather it is a matter of being humbly prayerful. I know, because I found myself doing it very soon once I realized that if they were focused on God that intently, then my noticing all of them was certainly an indication that I was not focused on God. That itself was a revealing moment - one that became like the proverbial roll of thread where you pull it and it just keeps unraveling. My eureka moment was that I realized I was not focused on God at all while in Church. I began to look inward and, while imperfect, began to focus on God in the time before, during, and after.

Something happened. My walk slowed in church. My head stopped wandering around looking at others and just kind of looked down as I thought about God and what he wanted me to learn that day. The more I focused on God, other things started to happen. I noticed how irreverent I was and inconsiderate for His presence in the form He gave Himself to us - the Eucharist. I began to genuflect to the floor, kneel when it was optional to sit, and I suddenly gained an interest to understand all these head bows and and waist bows going on so I dug into the GIRM and other documents to learn. I now do them as signs of reverence. Considering that Moses had to remove his sandles before he could approach the burning bush, these are only small signs. While some can find reverence in their heart alone, I finally concluded that for me to be reverent, I had to show it. For me, it required pure humility to genuflect and bow. I realized that humility was one of those simple weekly lessons God was wanting me to learn, and it had to start with how I treated Him when in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. From there, I would learn, with time, how to be humble in other ways with my fellow man. This is a lifelong journey. I learned that humility is like a taproot. Cut it short and the tree dwarfs. Let it grow, and the tree can grow to its full potential. Several key things become the branches of the tree dependent on that tap root: Reverence and obedience are two. Why? Humility counters pride.
 
What happened in the church next was I noticed the children in this parish. There were lots of young, large families, including kids ranging in age from 4 to 6. All sat quietly and required no attention from mom and dad, nor did they need toys to entertain them. No one in the church of any age had cherrios, sippy cups or any other food or sustenance. I wondered: How are these parents controlling this kids so well with no effort during the Mass when I typically see one family after another with only one or two kids, totally unable to control them (same age group).

I discovered the answer just a few rows ahead of me. I know how they do it! Here is the clue:

A woman sat up in front of me and she was a new mom of about 22-24 years old. During the prayers of the faithful, she stood like the rest of us, but kept her head down in prayer while holding her baby which was about 6 months old. The baby kept gently tapping moms face trying to get attention. She wasn’t fussing or anything, just simply touching mom. Not once did mom respond to the touches of the baby. It snapped in me as I realized that this woman was already teaching her child, this is not your hour, this is God’s hour. I quickly scanned around the rest of the church (not focusing on God, but obviously on a lesson he must have wanted me to learn). I saw several other parents with babies of about the same age and continued to observe seeing similar patterns. They simply did not give their babies any attention, other than the mere basics of holding them. They did not make goo-goo faces, or smile, or anything else. The children were being conditioned naturally to associate Church with a time where they do not get attention. Think about this for a minute…not only is it possible for them to handle it, but not getting all the attention for one hour, while in the presence of other people, is probably a positive thing from a behavioral standpoint.

This was further reinforced as I’ve witnessed several first communions. Communicants are not treated special when it is their first time. They simply get to sit in the first pew and get served and discretely go back to their pew. They do not expect anymore because they have been taught, this is not their hour, it is God’s hour.

All of this may seem cold and harsh, but it is not. I’ve been living it for over 3 months now and it feels good. What is interesting is how things take off AFTER the mass, outside of the church. The kids making first communion now get fussed over, the baby gets attention from everyone, and the kids play their hearts out with each other. It’s the only parish I’ve been in where each Sunday someone else comes up and says, “hey, your new around here and I just wanted to introduce myself - how about we go for coffee some time.” People linger for hours at this parish after each Mass. It is genuinely social, not just a few people having coffee and dougnuts.

I’ve never volunteered at any parish before. But, I’ve been volunteering like crazy. That is only one change that has been sparked by this parish and my change in focus on the Mass. I hope to be spending time at a crisis pregnancy center once I really get on my way and get my time balanced, even if it is just once per month.

These are just some of the changes manifesting themselves. There are many more changes happening internally.
 
40.png
Lux_et_veritas:
A woman sat up in front of me and she was a new mom of about 22-24 years old. During the prayers of the faithful, she stood like the rest of us, but kept her head down in prayer while holding her baby which was about 6 months old. The baby kept gently tapping moms face trying to get attention. She wasn’t fussing or anything, just simply touching mom. Not once did mom respond to the touches of the baby. It snapped in me as I realized that this woman was already teaching her child, this is not your hour, this is God’s hour. I quickly scanned around the rest of the church (not focusing on God, but obviously on a lesson he must have wanted me to learn). I saw several other parents with babies of about the same age and continued to observe seeing similar patterns. They simply did not give their babies any attention, other than the mere basics of holding them. They did not make goo-goo faces, or smile, or anything else. The children were being conditioned naturally to associate Church with a time where they do not get attention. Think about this for a minute…not only is it possible for them to handle it, but not getting all the attention for one hour, while in the presence of other people, is probably a positive thing from a behavioral standpoint.
Click to expand...
Wow Diane (I hope it’s ok to address you that way)! I can only imagine seeing this. We’ve got four grandchildren, all 15 months and younger. I’m going to have to pass this along to my son and daughter and see if they want to attempt this. If they do and it works, I’ll be hunting you down to sing your praises! :bowdown:

It sounds like you have found a home to go with your journey, which is a real blessing. We finally had to leave our home parish as it was not at all conducive to where my wife and I are headed. We now drive 45 minutes each way to a parish that is everything I could possibly ask for. There’s not a week that goes by that we don’t leave with our jaws hanging open and there is no doubt in our minds that it is exactly where God wants us, at least at this time. We try to always be ready for His next calling, whatever that may be.

Thanks for sharing all this with me. I continue to find new inspirations here, although I find myself probably spending* too * much time here. :rolleyes: Hopefully we’ll run into each other often.

Peace,
 
40.png
ncjohn:
Wow Diane (I hope it’s ok to address you that way)! I can only imagine seeing this. We’ve got four grandchildren, all 15 months and younger. I’m going to have to pass this along to my son and daughter and see if they want to attempt this. If they do and it works, I’ll be hunting you down to sing your praises! :bowdown:
Click to expand...
No problem. I have an anthropological mind, while not schooled in the subject. I pick up on subtle cultural things that most people don’t notice, but will often agree on once it is pointed out to them. Repeatability was important for me. Was it a single occurence or would I find it elsewhere. That is what drove me to look at other parents. Some of those behaving in the same manner as this mother, happened to be fathers, as well. They were sooooo focused on the Mass, either looking up toward’s the altar while in the back of the church rocking with their infant, or they were standing with their heads down in prayer. One thing that it will take is tremendous patience. It is easiest to just let things go. It takes strength and courage to not give in. But, I’ve seen many of the most well behaved kids of all age groups at this parish. I mean, when you see large families sitting so well and attentive with no toys or other things, and it is happening within this one parish, there has to be a common theme. That theme to me is: This is God’s hour, not ours.

One other thing I noticed that a father did with a toddler (something I’ve not had an opportunity to observe), is that the child was not allowed to run around. Rather, she was allowed to move about a little within the pew, but the moment she was moving too much, dad gently, but persistently addressed the problem. In one case, the child had her back turned to the altar and her arms dangling over the pew that was in front of her as she stood on the kneeler. Dad gently turned her and pointed toward’s the altar. He did this a few more times, patiently, but persistently. I then had a flashback to my dad doing some of the same kinds of things with me when I was a child.
It sounds like you have found a home to go with your journey, which is a real blessing. We finally had to leave our home parish as it was not at all conducive to where my wife and I are headed. We now drive 45 minutes each way to a parish that is everything I could possibly ask for. There’s not a week that goes by that we don’t leave with our jaws hanging open and there is no doubt in our minds that it is exactly where God wants us, at least at this time. We try to always be ready for His next calling, whatever that may be.
Click to expand...
Definitely found a home. This parish has changed me more in 3 months than any other experience in a lifetime.
Thanks for sharing all this with me. I continue to find new inspirations here, *although I find myself probably spending too ***much time here. :rolleyes: Hopefully we’ll run into each other often.

Peace,
Click to expand...
:rotfl:

I won’t tell you that I had to take my computer moderation problem into confession about two weeks ago. I became so addicted to this and another site all kinds of things started slipping. I tried to fix it on my own and it got worse. Next thing I knew, I was so late for Lauds I kept missing it, and was even late for Mass all on account of my AM computer activity. I was too addicted to say “no” to myself. I finally admitted this weakness in confession figuring Father wouldn’t exactly be too keen on why I was missing Lauds. It’s not that he is requiring me to be there. I am soon to join the T.O. Carmelites and can’t blow off my Divine Office like that - it is a requirement for that. And, one moderation issue seemed to be leading to several others.

Confession worked! By the grace of God, I have been reasonable with participation. I figured he’d nip it in the bud real easy and tell me to pull the plug. I’m starting to understand these graces now.
 
So what is worse being a Cafeteria Catholic or just not attending Mass at all?
For years now I have felt like the world’s worst Catholic because I would go to Mass feeling like the Church was out of touch with my generation, but my Mom always made me feel better by saying it’s better to go to Mass with your own thoughts on life than not go at all, she said G-d gave me free will to think and be my own person and always be proud of that.
Birth control has always been a hot topic for me, I can understand the abortion argument but its disregard for over population and STD’s seems to be harmful, IMO.

So am I better off converting to a faith that is willing to change with the time like the Reform Movement of Judaism or being a Cafeteria Catholic?
Can I even be a Catholic if I take issues with all the Saints?
 
mumto5 said:
I don’t mind at all. I was thinking of my own example where I almost died having my last baby and have a very high chance of repeating the incident that led to it again. I had problems after my fourth birth. I desire more children, I’ve always wanted lots and thought I’d always have at least one more, but I have decided not to try to conceive another one as I feel that God would rather I be there to raise my five children than to die having six and leave them all motherless (and possibly take the baby with me as well). My husband is exhausted and needs a break from the babies. I feel that not having a baby is the least selfish course, for everyone else concerned, that I can take. I feel it would be selfish for me to take the risk as far as my children are concerned and to not take my husband’s feelings into account in this matter. He was ready to stop three children ago and has taken into account my wishes, now I have to take into account mine. I do hope that I will get the chance to adopt in future but I’ve left that up to God’s will. Obviously I believe that if God wants me to have more children I will - be that via adoption or birth.

No doubt there are other circumstances where it would be selfish - and contrary to responsible parenthood - to choose to have a child because I want one. Sometimes choosing not to have a child can be the more noble course.

Did I say contraception was unselfish? I can’t remember. I’m not talking about the means as much as the intention, be that NFP or otherwise. I think there is a huge difference between keeping sperm and egg apart and destroying a life begun.

You don’t have to agree with me, I don’t care, you are not my judge. I do know that I think and reason on things and that includes my faith. Otherwise I may as well just join a cult that dictates what we need to believe without question.
Click to expand...
Boy I got blasted for similar thoughts on other post. I wish I had found this one first.

There are many CC that would agree with what your saying and just so you know, as it was inferred I was lying, I believe that you have had priests that did not admonish you over it.
 
👍
Penny_Plain said:
Alan, I would love to get your thoughts on this, which has been bouncing around in my head for some time.

I think we place too much emphasis on heaven. I mean, yes, we all want to go there, but we (and I include myself in this) spend so much time thinking about it and calculating how we’re going to get there that we don’t pay attention to what we are supposed to be doing, which is living.

It seems to me that what we should be striving to do is live rightly. If we do (note the ambiguity as to whether “do” means “live well” or “striving to live well”), then heaven will take care of itself.

It’s like we’re hiking through the mountains and not noticing the beautiful scenery because we’re too fixated on the hot chocolate we hope is waiting for us at the lodge.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top