Cafeteria Catholics are getting it worse than non-Christians

[JustAnotherThou]

I agree with the person who made the distinction between “I don’t understand” (imho, they fall into the same category as Muslims and other non-Christians) and “I will not serve”. It’s the latter my tirade is aimed at. If you don’t understand, then how could you be to blame?

The biggest problem in the Church is not the ignorance of those who really do not care, it’s the people who fancy themselves as too intelligent, or those who think themselves too enlightened. These are the dissident types.

In terms of how you go about it, well, I just want to force people into the choice between doing what the Church says, and rejecting the Church. I do believe that most people if they thought about it it rationally would change their ways.

I’m not judging anyone in particular, you know who you are. If you’re not doing anything wrong, then your conscience is clear and there’s no reason to freak out.

mscrank - what I don’t think you understand about me, is for many years that I was your so called “cafeteria Catholic” I didn’t realize that I didn’t understand the faith. I thought I understood. I remember saying all the time I am 90% Catholic. Meaning at that time I could agree with 90% of the Catholic faith. Reality is was probably more like 40% (if that). During that time I lived with my boyfriend, had premarital sex, was on bc, etc. It took me years to finally realize and learn that I REALLY didn’t know my faith. Since then I have BEGAN to learn my faith, I am still probably only at about 50% (thought is was more, till I found CAF), although I do live my Catholic faith. It is a learning process though.
I think I understand where you are drawing the line (from your last post). Although, I personally can’t say for certain that the person I see in the pews next to me at Easter are “cafeteria Catholics” or maybe they are just in town visiting. The people that I do know that are going though the motions and only getting about 20% of the Catholic faith right, I pray for them and hope that like me with time, prayer and growth they will grow stronger in their faith as I did. I guess I would rather see them try and fall many times than not try at all.
I will say, we have a local politician that is pro-choice, and claims to be Catholic. I have asked him how he can say he is Catholic and be pro-choice. He has yet to answer that, well at least not clearly, guess he has is politician speak
I still pray for him and hope that the Holy Spirit wacks him across the head someday so he understands.
I just don’t feel I can give up on them, I have no indication nor do I think that Jesus has given up on them yet. So how could I???

 

[dmelosi]

The above is an excellent example of what I mean in my earlier post. This person is assuming a great deal, are they not? This is not a gentle reminder to sinners, it is a blanket condemnation of a group of people this poster doesn’t know anything about except that they are not in the same place on the spiritual path as he/she at this time. I am doing my best and resent that a total stranger should presume to know otherwise and I am positive I am not the only one who finds this type of statement un-Christian.

You are confusing me. What do you think a cafeteria catholic is? Are you of the mind that anyone should believe anything they want just because they feel it is ok?

I really am confused about where you are coming from, this is a forum to discuss these issues.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Just another note, I was reading an article yesterday in our local Catholic newspaper, that a 87 year old lady, she has come back to the Catholic Faith after being away from it for 40 some years!!

 

[Island_Oak]

The biggest problem in the Church is not the ignorance of those who really do not care, it’s the people who fancy themselves as too intelligent, or those who think themselves too enlightened. These are the dissident types.

Another convenient lable masking yet another form of judgment. Intellectual study, inquiry, doubt, trial and error may all be a very neccesary part of the process of faith formation for some people. The Church should welcome such inquiry~it certainly has a long history of many learned writers, scholars and teachers to answer the questions of any serious student. The fact that you may encounter somone in the midst of their journey–not fully educated and perhaps not as fully compliant and obediant as you deem appropriate–does not render them a “problem” any more than you, in your imperfect practice of the faith, are a problem to the Church.

In terms of how you go about it, well, I just want to force people into the choice between doing what the Church says, and rejecting the Church. I do believe that most people if they thought about it it rationally would change their ways.

WHAT!!! Talk about dissident! There’s only room in the church for those in perfect compliance with her teachings?! Please find me one example where Jesus ever “forces” such a choice on anyone. Faith is and always has been a matter of free will. It is a gift, one which we often struggle and are challenged to accept. It comes to each of us in different ways, at different times in life and our ability to be open to it often depends on things like our life experience and exposure religious education. And the Church itself was left to us as yet another gift…a tool which would provide fellowship, not exclusion…guidance and forgiveness not condemnation as we tried again and again to mold and tame our sinful human nature.

 

[Nordar]

mscrank - what I don’t think you understand about me, is for many years that I was your so called “cafeteria Catholic” I didn’t realize that I didn’t understand the faith. I thought I understood. I remember saying all the time I am 90% Catholic. Meaning at that time I could agree with 90% of the Catholic faith. Reality is was probably more like 40% (if that). During that time I lived with my boyfriend, had premarital sex, was on bc, etc. It took me years to finally realize and learn that I REALLY didn’t know my faith. Since then I have BEGAN to learn my faith, I am still probably only at about 50% (thought is was more, till I found CAF), although I do live my Catholic faith. It is a learning process though.
I think I understand where you are drawing the line (from your last post). Although, I personally can’t say for certain that the person I see in the pews next to me at Easter are “cafeteria Catholics” or maybe they are just in town visiting. The people that I do know that are going though the motions and only getting about 20% of the Catholic faith right, I pray for them and hope that like me with time, prayer and growth they will grow stronger in their faith as I did. I guess I would rather see them try and fall many times than not try at all.
I will say, we have a local politician that is pro-choice, and claims to be Catholic. I have asked him how he can say he is Catholic and be pro-choice. He has yet to answer that, well at least not clearly, guess he has is politician speak
I still pray for him and hope that the Holy Spirit wacks him across the head someday so he understands.
I just don’t feel I can give up on them, I have no indication nor do I think that Jesus has given up on them yet. So how could I???

mscrank is not saying anything different than you, I think he understands perfectly!

 

[SD_Catholic]

mscrank - what I don’t think you understand about me, is for many years that I was your so called “cafeteria Catholic” I didn’t realize that I didn’t understand the faith. I thought I understood. I remember saying all the time I am 90% Catholic. Meaning at that time I could agree with 90% of the Catholic faith. Reality is was probably more like 40% (if that). During that time I lived with my boyfriend, had premarital sex, was on bc, etc. It took me years to finally realize and learn that I REALLY didn’t know my faith. Since then I have BEGAN to learn my faith, I am still probably only at about 50% (thought is was more, till I found CAF), although I do live my Catholic faith. It is a learning process though.
I think I understand where you are drawing the line (from your last post). Although, I personally can’t say for certain that the person I see in the pews next to me at Easter are “cafeteria Catholics” or maybe they are just in town visiting. The people that I do know that are going though the motions and only getting about 20% of the Catholic faith right, I pray for them and hope that like me with time, prayer and growth they will grow stronger in their faith as I did. I guess I would rather see them try and fall many times than not try at all.

I don’t know that mscrank actually put you in that category… it seems you are the one that keeps saying you were in it. I think they’ve been saying that a CC is one who actually knows about a Catholic teaching but refuses to live it because it “messes up” their lives. Such as that politician you speak of… and I really doubt anyone thinks we should actually “give up” on anyone.

If someone knows a Church teaching and refuses to live it I don’t think it should hurt their feelings to be called a CC… I’m sure there could be much worse titles. I use to fit in this category but when I made the decision to try and do everything God expected of me, I was willing to change so many things in my life in order to please him. Of course I still falter at times, but it is not out of direct refusal to obey his or his Church’s teachings. I no longer get mad at the person who pointed out my sin I get mad at myself for nailing Jesus back to the cross…

There is also a huge difference between judging someone’s sins and condemming their souls… yes we must be careful not to be made hypocrites, but God warns us that if we continue to let someone continue in a life of sin that we ourselves may be held accountable for that person’s sins. From experience I realize being humbled is all part of the journey to becoming a better Catholic Christian.

SD

 

[Nordar]

The Church itself was left to us as yet another gift…a tool which would provide fellowship, not exclusion…guidance and forgiveness not condemnation as we tried again and again to mold and tame our sinful human nature.

Lable me confused also, by your post, The Chuch is a tool?
Who said anything about it excluding people? the theme on this thread seems to be getting people back to The Church and understand their faith more deeply.
Who is condemning anyone?
Mold and tame our sinful nature? The only way we can become less sinfull is with a total dependence on God, left to our own devices that is impossible.

It is the responsibility of ever Catholic who has been given the awesome gift of this true faith to learn all they can about it. It is not about judging anyone when the subject is approached about Cafeteria Catholics, it is about saving souls.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Guess my point was, if I was attending the mscrank’s parish during those years that I was just attending mass on Easter & Christmas, and calling myself Catholic even though I was not living a Catholic lifestyle, if mscrank would have had a personal conversation with me he would have probably put me in that catigory, with good reason. What if mscrank (or anyone else) told me at that time “Why be Catholic at all”. I might have left the Church. Instead of growing in my faith as I have!

 

[JustAnotherThou]

I just want to force people into the choice between doing what the Church says, and rejecting the Church.

I guess this is the statement that we are having difficulties over.
Personally, I just don’t want to force people to reject the Church. Maybe I am wrong here, but I still have hope for them!

 

[PaulinVA]

Guess my point was, if I was attending the mscrank’s parish during those years that I was just attending mass on Easter & Christmas, and calling myself Catholic even though I was not living a Catholic lifestyle, if mscrank would have had a personal conversation with me he would have probably put me in that catigory, with good reason. What if mscrank (or anyone else) told me at that time “Why be Catholic at all”. I might have left the Church. Instead of growing in my faith as I have!

I don’t agree with this whole “don’t upset the pew potatoes or they will leave” line of thinking.

It’s better to be hot or cold rather than lukewarm. Just sitting at mass every Sunday and not believing what the Church teaches is being deceitful to yourself.

Asking people who come twice a year to evaluate WHY they come at all is not being judgmental. It’s a real, legitimate question.

 

[Swan]

You are confusing me. What do you think a cafeteria catholic is? Are you of the mind that anyone should believe anything they want just because they feel it is ok?

I really am confused about where you are coming from, this is a forum to discuss these issues.

Okay, I’ll try again.

1. A cc is someone who does not agree with all church teachings and, as a result, does not practic them, though this does not mean they have given up,
2. I don’t think I said anywhere that people should believe whatever they want and still consider themselves Catholcs. If I did so, please point it out to me as I’m sure this is not what I meant to say,
3. This thread, IMO, is a blanket condemnation of CCs which does not take into account the realities of individual struggles. For myself, I have trouble with some issues. I have tried, prayed, etc. but in my heart I still have problems. The only discussion on this thread is how horrible ccs are. There is no attempt to understand, no mercy, no compassion. I gave you a good example in the post to which you responded.

To put your mind at rest that I might be somehow passing myself off as something I’m not, I am not a practicing Catholic at this time. What I’d like to see is relected here is giving us strugglers the benefit of the doubt that we are doing the best we can instead of the other way around. Yet this seems to be a problem. Also, are you disagreeing that the post I quoted is a blanket condemnation of ccs? Are you asserting that those you are so highly critical have the right to do so in that they do indeed know our hearts?
4) So what I am saying is I see no sign of

 

[JustAnotherThou]

I don’t agree with this whole “don’t upset the pew potatoes or they will leave” line of thinking.

It’s better to be hot or cold rather than lukewarm. Just sitting at mass every Sunday and not believing what the Church teaches is being deceitful to yourself.

Asking people who come twice a year to evaluate WHY they come at all is not being judgmental. It’s a real, legitimate question.

So you are saying, you would rather tell them, “either agree 100% of the Catholic Faith and live it or don’t be Catholic”?

 

[PaulinVA]

So you are saying, you would rather tell them, “either agree 100% of the Catholic Faith and live it or don’t be Catholic”?

Well, who is a Catholic? Someone who has been baptized or otherwise accepted into the Catholic Church.

My point is not there needs to be a litmus test and people who fail should be booted out. My point is that every Sunday, and especially on Christmas and Easter, there are people in the pews who need to be challenged about their faith (well ALL of us, but you get the point). They need to be urged to go further in their faith journey.

Some positions objectively take us away from the the Church (pro abortion, pro Artificial Birth Control) and people should be challenged on those positions. People just going to mass every Sunday with no desire to integrate their faith into every day life should be challenged.

I pray for my pastor every weekday because I have no clue how to do this.

 

[brycelaliberte]

Can’t remember the verse, but to paraphrase; “For you were neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, and when drunk you shall be spit out for you leave a sour taste.” Something like that.

I think that what needs to be done is those of us with the knowledge should hold other Catholics accountable, even if they don’t want to be. Get them ‘heated up,’ make 'em sweat a little if you need to. Better to do that then kick 'em out and let them get entirely cold.

I would have the opinion that Cafeteria Catholics are worse, not being judgmental, but in the fact that they have done a much better job of leading others astray than anyone else I have ever met.

Take for example, my friend “Jim.” Jim is an altar boy, attends the same parish as many other Catholic kids at my school, yet at school he is just like many of those other Catholic kids; you would never know. (Very much a surprise for me to learn so many of my friends were Catholic )
He would swear just as much as everyone else, would have dissenting opinions with the Church just like everyone else, and so then he gets championed by the very liberal (nothing against liberals, but we’re talking about THOSE types of liberals) kids as “The way a Catholic should be,” as in, very worldly, and doesn’t let his religion interfere with his life.
And now, when other Catholics, like me, have a dissenting opinion, they like to point to Jim, and say “He’s a good Catholic. You should be like him.” All I could say is that, “Well, actually, he has a lot of misled views, and he needs to be properly taught the right things,” and then they like to say something about censorship or propaganda, or fear of new ideas, etc.
Anyway, as we can see, he does a lot of damage, because he gives a lot of people the idea of a warm, fuzzy God who will let everyone into Heaven as long as they’re overall ‘nice.’

Like the Rainbow Sash Movement. It will not be surprising at all if they’re heralded by the media during Benedict’s visit as ‘martyrs for their cause against the homophobic institution.’

Lukewarm Catholics are terrible, and should be given a quick slap upside the head, sat down, and started getting taught. And if they refuse to be taught or still hold onto heretical ideas, then perhaps they could be disallowed to take the Eucharist.

This needs to be shown that we are serious about this stuff, we really aren’t going to bend over for the world to appeal to ‘nice feelings’ or ‘pretty philosophies.’

So, place to start is to correct our Cafeteria Catholic friends when they have dissenting views with the Church, and invite them to come to Mass more often, and challenge them, for this is their eternal souls we are worrying about.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Well, who is a Catholic? Someone who has been baptized or otherwise accepted into the Catholic Church.

My point is not there needs to be a litmus test and people who fail should be booted out. My point is that every Sunday, and especially on Christmas and Easter, there are people in the pews who need to be challenged about their faith (well ALL of us, but you get the point). They need to be urged to go further in their faith journey.

Some positions objectively take us away from the the Church (pro abortion, pro Artificial Birth Control) and people should be challenged on those positions. People just going to mass every Sunday with no desire to integrate their faith into every day life should be challenged.

I pray for my pastor every weekday because I have no clue how to do this.

I take that as a No?

I don’t disagree with you necessarily, I am just saying that maybe it is a longer journey for them than for you and I. So I am more willing to be patient with them, pray for them, and try my best to live my life in a way that will inspire them.

My big hangup with this thread it it seems to ME (maybe this is not how you mean it, although it is the way I recieve it) that it is either be Catholic or don’t say you are Catholic. If someone would have said that to me when I was in that difficult journey, it might have lead me to a different faith or no faith at all.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Can’t remember the verse, but to paraphrase; “For you were neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, and when drunk you shall be spit out for you leave a sour taste.” Something like that.

I think that what needs to be done is those of us with the knowledge should hold other Catholics accountable, even if they don’t want to be. Get them ‘heated up,’ make 'em sweat a little if you need to. Better to do that then kick 'em out and let them get entirely cold.

I would have the opinion that Cafeteria Catholics are worse, not being judgmental, but in the fact that they have done a much better job of leading others astray than anyone else I have ever met.

Take for example, my friend “Jim.” Jim is an altar boy, attends the same parish as many other Catholic kids at my school, yet at school he is just like many of those other Catholic kids; you would never know. (Very much a surprise for me to learn so many of my friends were Catholic )
He would swear just as much as everyone else, would have dissenting opinions with the Church just like everyone else, and so then he gets championed by the very liberal (nothing against liberals, but we’re talking about THOSE types of liberals) kids as “The way a Catholic should be,” as in, very worldly, and doesn’t let his religion interfere with his life.
And now, when other Catholics, like me, have a dissenting opinion, they like to point to Jim, and say “He’s a good Catholic. You should be like him.” All I could say is that, “Well, actually, he has a lot of misled views, and he needs to be properly taught the right things,” and then they like to say something about censorship or propaganda, or fear of new ideas, etc.
Anyway, as we can see, he does a lot of damage, because he gives a lot of people the idea of a warm, fuzzy God who will let everyone into Heaven as long as they’re overall ‘nice.’

Like the Rainbow Sash Movement. It will not be surprising at all if they’re heralded by the media during Benedict’s visit as ‘martyrs for their cause against the homophobic institution.’

Lukewarm Catholics are terrible, and should be given a quick slap upside the head, sat down, and started getting taught. And if they refuse to be taught or still hold onto heretical ideas, then perhaps they could be disallowed to take the Eucharist.

This needs to be shown that we are serious about this stuff, we really aren’t going to bend over for the world to appeal to ‘nice feelings’ or ‘pretty philosophies.’

So, place to start is to correct our Cafeteria Catholic friends when they have dissenting views with the Church, and invite them to come to Mass more often, and challenge them, for this is their eternal souls we are worrying about.

The priest should alos be preaching about all of those topics every Sunday also! I guess it would be changing the thread if I ask why they aren’t
Maybe more of us need to talk to our priest and encourage them to preach on these hot topics.

 

[PaulinVA]

I take that as a No?

It is a no. A baptized Catholic is a baptized Catholic.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily, I am just saying that maybe it is a longer journey for them than for you and I. So I am more willing to be patient with them, pray for them, and try my best to live my life in a way that will inspire them.

I guess I’m looking for something a little more proactive.

My big hangup with this thread it it seems to ME (maybe this is not how you mean it, although it is the way I recieve it) that it is either be Catholic or don’t say you are Catholic. If someone would have said that to me when I was in that difficult journey, it might have lead me to a different faith or no faith at all.

Like I said, if you are baptized, you’re Catholic. I think people here are expressing a desire that all people know the fullness of the Church and accept it’s teaching. It’s really hard to do that and not appear holier than thou.

 

[mschrank]

Island Oak: Say what you like to me, but would you really have the nerve to give God Himself that speech on your judgement day? Who cares what I think, or anyone on here- the reality is how you act and whether God exists or not.

Swan: I do understand by reading your posts that there is something I might not understand about the “cradle catholic” experience. Fair enough.

However, it’s hard for me to have a ton of sympathy for people who do not want (i.e., can’t bear it) to change their ways. I used to be an agnostic, or maybe a reaaally liberal non-denominational- I kinda had my own half-Christian, half-made up religion. I lived a really immoral lifestyle. Use your imagination.

Finally, I realized, if there is a God, then I’m going to hell. If not, then everything is meaningless. So, it was kind of a decision between nihlism and hell. Either reform my ways, or become an explicit atheist and embrace the nothing and make war on God and make pleasure my god. Huh, talk about stuck between a rock and a hard place!

Anyway, I tried protestantism first, but I just could not get a feel for it. It seemed to be mostly about feelings, and you either got it and fell on your knees and accepted Christ as “your personal savior” or you didn’t. I didn’t. So I kind of drifted for about a year, going to church on some sundays with my protestant friends and then doing my normal sin during the week, then I went on a trip to Rome with my brother and met a retired Archbishop. A week earlier, I asked God to give me some kind of sign if I was supposed to be a Catholic because the protestant thing wasn’t working out.

So the Church had answers, and not just answers but answers that made sense. I never got “sola scriptura”, I asked my friends where to find it and just got some vague references from Paul’s epistles (when I knew that he was referring to the OT!). Catholicism seemed to be more about reason and less about feelings. I also discovered a Church that was very old, and very wise, and didn’t make me feel excluded since I didn’t want to jump up and down screaming I love Jesus to rock music.

I figured out most of my problems with Christianity (now in its sane Catholic version) were not really problems with Christianity but problems more akin to pronouncing a new language- namely, my default all-encompassing worldview (liberalism mixed with a kind of pop-scientific materialism) did not mesh well with Christian teachings. Everything from the radical neo-darwinian denial of form to the Descartian mind-body dualism inherent in the modern “sexual revolution” needed to be reevaluated in the light of Church teachings.

So this I did. I still don’t understand many things the Church teaches very well, but I either shrug my shoulders and give the Church the benefit of the doubt, or actively research it. I do know however, that I will never be able to match 1:1 the Church in understanding, that I will always have to accept her Authority. The Church is a 2000 year old “mother and teacher”, no mortal person can totally and authentically grasp everything she teaches all the way down to the roots.

This is not a big accomplishment on my part. It’s just expected. This is called Orthodox faith. Everyone who believes what the Church teaches does it.

The problem I see is many people do not do that. Instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to the Church and acknowledging her authority, people give the benefit of the doubt to the secular world and its liberal popular philosophy, and try to somehow shoehorn Christianity in. In other words, they reverse the priority of the sacred to the secular- and then, pat themselves on the back for being “authentic” or having “good faith” as Sartre would say. The Church is in ruins because of this amongst other things.

 

[stbruno]

I think what makes it even more complicated, in that people remember the church of their childhood is the wrong text. They stopped their catechesis probably at 8th grade for most of them or their confirmation…and they really didn’t take it seriously or maybe they really paid little attention to it, just went through the motions instead…so they like little robots start believing what is written about the faith from the secular news. Or from culture…and they want to fit in. Well, therein lies the problem. In the old days, the church founded culture and nowadays, people want the culture to form the church. But the basic tenets of the church are the very same. That’s the greatest strength of the church. Jesus laid the foundation, He is the cornerstone. And people have built their idea of church without the cornerstone. We dont’ eliminate what Jesus taught us about morality, or the necessity to be the body of Christ and to build the Kingdom.
However, we don’t have to bash it over their heads to get their attention in most cases. Reasonable dialog, radio evangelism, good homilies, doing the sacraments well along with the prep for them makes a big difference. We are all called by our baptism, to go and teach all nations…and we do it best by living our faith in the way we act towards others. If all is done well, the other person who has been distant from our faith…will say, my heart has been restless all these years…look at Joe, he’s got something I am missing and longing for, maybe it’s because he’s a faithful Catholic. Wouldn’t that be a revelation?! With the help of God, all things are possible.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

It is a no. A baptized Catholic is a baptized Catholic.

I guess I’m looking for something a little more proactive.

Like I said, if you are baptized, you’re Catholic. I think people here are expressing a desire that all people know the fullness of the Church and accept it’s teaching. It’s really hard to do that and not appear holier than thou.

So maybe one should start a Thread on here “How to reach our Catholic (family, lapsed, brothers & sisters, or something like that)” rather than just talk about how worse they are then the rest of us.
Just a Thought