Cafeteria Catholics are getting it worse than non-Christians

[duskyjewel]

I also discovered a Church that was very old, and very wise, and didn’t make me feel excluded since I didn’t want to jump up and down screaming I love Jesus to rock music.

I figured out most of my problems with Christianity (now in its sane Catholic version) were not really problems with Christianity but problems more akin to pronouncing a new language- namely, my default all-encompassing worldview (liberalism mixed with a kind of pop-scientific materialism) did not mesh well with Christian teachings. Everything from the radical neo-darwinian denial of form to the Descartian mind-body dualism inherent in the modern “sexual revolution” needed to be reevaluated in the light of Church teachings.

WOW!! Who ever said the “cafeteria dwellers” weren’t deep thinkers? I am impressed, mschrank.

I don’t know how many of you have ever seen the A&E miniseries “Brides of Christ.” In that show, the mother superior of the convent tells a struggling nun, “If you think one person can ever work out all the contradictions and questions of this faith, you are kidding yourself.” Or something close to that… Anyway, I don’t think anyone who really digs deep and reads and learns and examines a lot about the Catholic faith will ever be able to reconcile themselves 100% to everything. And I think people who claim they are 100% reconciled to everything either are those Catholics who do not dig and read and examine deeply, and so don’t understand a lot of the controversy many of us get ourselves into internally, or who have extremely strong wills and can, much like what mschrank describes, just make themselves fit into the Church and decide to stop questioning (obsessing?) over certain things.

So, I tend to agree that we need some categories here. Some Catholics do it “cafeteria style” because they really don’t understand. Some do it because they are defiant and rebellious. And some are a mixture of both, in that they know they don’t understand, but refuse to learn more to clear it up. Because with knowing comes responsibility…

 

[SD_Catholic]

And some are a mixture of both, in that they know they don’t understand, but refuse to learn more to clear it up. Because with knowing comes responsibility…

BINGO!!! this was me… and probably many others… I finally had to stop kidding myself There comes a time we must stop trying to change the Church to fit our lives and instead change our lives to fit the Church. She’s wiser than we can imagine.

SD

 

[Swan]

I take that as a No?

I don’t disagree with you necessarily, I am just saying that maybe it is a longer journey for them than for you and I. So I am more willing to be patient with them, pray for them, and try my best to live my life in a way that will inspire them.

My big hangup with this thread it it seems to ME (maybe this is not how you mean it, although it is the way I recieve it) that it is either be Catholic or don’t say you are Catholic. If someone would have said that to me when I was in that difficult journey, it might have lead me to a different faith or no faith at all.

See, I agree with this. Jesus didn’t run off the folks who were a work-in-progress.

 

[Swan]

However, it’s hard for me to have a ton of sympathy for people who do not want (i.e., can’t bear it) to change their ways.
So the Church had answers, and not just answers but answers that made sense. I still don’t understand many things the Church teaches very well, but I either shrug my shoulders and give the Church the benefit of the doubt, or actively research it. I do know however, that I will never be able to match 1:1 the Church in understanding, that I will always have to accept her Authority. The Church is a 2000 year old “mother and teacher”, no mortal person can totally and authentically grasp everything she teaches all the way down to the roots The problem I see is many people do not do that.

I appreciate your response (note: I edited the above so for anyone new on the thread, please read the complete original). . What I’m saying to you is that it isn’t that I can’t bear to change my ways - in that I’m too selfish, etc. I agnoize over this. I am, for good or ill, a deep thinker. I ponder, I question. Yet I have had some deep, supernatural spiritual experiences. Indeed, if not for those who knows what I would believe. My problem is with things I can’t reconcile in my heart, after much deep thought and prayer. I cannot go along with something I do not believe - I can’t force myself (now for any reading this who might think that I’m a young woman having wild sex who won’t give up ABC let me put your mind at ease. I’m married and going through menopause - I say this because of the tendency to think sex is the main driving force in our lives).

My other problem, which you touch on, is the acceptance of infallibility. I don’t want to go into this here because there are numerous other threads on it, suffice to say that I have a real problem with this. If anyone would like more detail on this, see my posts in the “non-Catholic religions” section.

As I believed I mentioned, I am not a practicing Catholic. I’m not a practicing anything else, either, though I am investigating the Quakers/Society of Friends because I believe in the priesthood of all believers.

I am happy to explain what I believe, what I don’t and why. I simply ask that I be treated with the respect due another human being regardless of your opinion of my beliefs.

 

[THutch04]

Well, I don’t know which category I fit into…I have one particular issue that I’m well aware what the Church teaches on it and do not agree with it. I’ve tried for a couple of years to force myself to agree with the Church on it, and I can’t lie to myself that I agree when I know I don’t. If I had known that I would have to accept this particular teaching, I probably would not have even joined the Church in the first place, but both my RCIA director and the head priest told me that accepting that teaching wasn’t necessary (I really can’t blame them though, they probably assumed that I would eventually accept it, and in all honesty, it’s an issue that I know doesn’t come up very much). Don’t worry, I haven’t received the Eucharist for awhile now, and I don’t plan on doing so in the near future.

 

[Brendan]

See, I agree with this. Jesus didn’t run off the folks who were a work-in-progress.

Interesting

How do you explain these

Matthew 19

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, **he went away **sad, because he had great wealth.

John 6

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. …

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Did Jesus chase after the rich man, or His disciples and assure them that they didn’t really have to accept almsgiving or the Eucharist at this point in their faith journey? Or did He just let them go?

He didn’t make them go, that is certain. But He did lay down His teachings and let people accept in or reject it.

Peter had the best response ever to being handed a doctrine he did not comprehend " Where else can we go, you have the words of Enternal Life"

 

[Nordar]

I am happy to explain what I believe, what I don’t and why. I simply ask that I be treated with the respect due another human being regardless of your opinion of my beliefs.

No one is disrespecting you, how do you come up with that? What is being discussed here is the teachings of The Church, and the truth that some are Cafeteria Catholics and therefore not adhering to what the Church teaches. How can the truth be disrespecfull to anyone?

 

[JustAnotherThou]

I guess I’m looking for something a little more proactive.

Prayer is proactive, our diocese prays for an increase in the Holy orders vocation. We have 40+ seminarians since we started praying.

 

[PaulinVA]

Prayer is proactive, our diocese prays for an increase in the Holy orders vocation. We have 40+ seminarians since we started praying.

That’s great, but this thread has proven that’s it’s pretty hard to pray for someone or a group to gain in spirituality without sounding “holier than thou” and turning people off.

In our parish our pastor has instituted holy hours for Adoration and First Friday Adoration (which is really cool, by the way, with a string quartet and confession) and that is pulling in more people to participate more deeply. Daily mass is well attended, actually.

Our pastor is urging people to come to these “extra” things during the week, and it is working, slowly but surely.

Don’t misunderstand the goal here. It is not to condemn those who don’t fully follow the Church or don’t fully believe. It’s because God is so great and loving that I want all the others in the pews with me to experience God’s love fully!

 

[JustAnotherThou]

That’s great, but this thread has proven that’s it’s pretty hard to pray for someone or a group to gain in spirituality without sounding “holier than thou” and turning people off.

I don’t believe that praying for someone or a group will sound holier than thou. I don’t see where in this thread that it is proven that prayer would.

I do believe and this thread has convinced me that prayer is needed for these people and even myself to gain in spirituality and therefore for myself I will add that to my daily prayers.

I also think there are better ways of reaching those people, some of which you stated in your post. I suggested to my priest that every now and then they have a panel of priest and WELL catechized lay people to do a question and answer session for those who do not fully understand the faith. He has yet to do it. Although I understand how busy he is. It might not change the mind of all those who do not fully understand the faith, although it may reach a few that had the wrong facts or were never given the facts. There are a few (probably more) things I don’t understand why we believe them. I accept that we do, but I don’t know why. I am learning more and more from being on CAF. Not everyone knows of CAF, not everyone has a computer. So the best way to reach them is in our Church and our communities.

As I said in an earlier post, I would rather have a thread that is titled “How to reach our Catholic (family, lapsed, brothers & sisters, or something like that)” rather than one that just points out that they are worse off than the rest of us.

 

[PaulinVA]

. So the best way to reach them is in our Church and our communities.

As I said in an earlier post, I would rather have a thread that is titled “How to reach our Catholic (family, lapsed, brothers & sisters, or something like that)” rather than one that just points out that they are worse off than the rest of us.

I agree completely.

 

[Swan]

My comment about works-in-progress was a bit tongue in cheek in that as are ALL works-in-progress. None of us is perfect, we all struggle, we all have times when we doubt. Personally, I am going through a period of intense personal trial. Things are so bad that I am questioning things I never thought I would. No one is immune from such states - which is one of my points. We can say things like “oh, no, I’d never think that” or “it will never happen to me” - but things can and do happen. It is impossible to predict how we will handle them. All I’m saying is quit implying you’re so much better than those struggling. Remember, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.”

 

[Nordar]

My comment about works-in-progress was a bit tongue in cheek in that as are ALL works-in-progress. None of us is perfect, we all struggle, we all have times when we doubt. Personally, I am going through a period of intense personal trial. Things are so bad that I am questioning things I never thought I would. No one is immune from such states - which is one of my points. We can say things like “oh, no, I’d never think that” or “it will never happen to me” - but things can and do happen. It is impossible to predict how we will handle them. All I’m saying is quit implying you’re so much better than those struggling. Remember, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.”

Seriously I have no clue where you are coming from, your post has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.
NO ONE I repeat NO ONE on here is implying they are so much better then anyone struggling.
What “oh no, I"d never think that” or “it will never happen to me” has to do with the fact that Cafeteria Catholics are not practicing the fullness of their faith ( because they are not, you know, no matter how you slice it) is totally beyond me.

 

[magic_stick]

Who is going to get a worse time of judgement? ?

The people that judge other people. Only god is the one true judge.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Seriously I have no clue where you are coming from, your post has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.
NO ONE I repeat NO ONE on here is implying they are so much better then anyone struggling.
What “oh no, I"d never think that” or “it will never happen to me” has to do with the fact that Cafeteria Catholics are not practicing the fullness of their faith ( because they are not, you know, no matter how you slice it) is totally beyond me.

Nordar - I think we did kind of cover that. I do think that some of us (me included) didn’t like how some things worded. I am not good at muti quoting on here so I can’t go back and pull all of them for you, check my posts on here. I think that sometimes we get too caught up on wording (including myself). You may not read something the same way someone else does. And even though everyone may not agree with Swan, I do think what she (or he) has said does have to do with what is being discussed here. Again maybe it is how I read things compaired to how you read them.

 

[Nordar]

Nordar - I think we did kind of cover that. I do think that some of us (me included) didn’t like how some things worded. I am not good at muti quoting on here so I can’t go back and pull all of them for you, check my posts on here. I think that sometimes we get too caught up on wording (including myself). You may not read something the same way someone else does. And even though everyone may not agree with Swan, I do think what she (or he) has said does have to do with what is being discussed here. Again maybe it is how I read things compaired to how you read them.

I inderstand what you are saying, but I truly do not see ( I went over all the posts) that anyone was attacking or thinking they were superior or whatever.
The OP was talking about Cafeteria Catholics who know about Jesus and the Church. It doesn’t matter how their religious instruction went, or for whatever reason, they are CC. The fact of the matter is they are not living their faith according to the teachings of The Church. So whether they like to be called CC or not that is in fact what they are. They are responsible as Catholics again, no matter what their RI were to go deeper into their faith and learn it.`~~ To those who are given much, much is expected~~ If you are fortunate enough to have been given the awesome gift of Catholicism then you are that much more responsible than those who have not.
That is what the OP was saying , he nor anyone else on here was saying they were better. You can argue all you want against that but whether you like it or not ( not specificlly you) that is the truth.

 

[Brendan]

The people that judge other people. Only god is the one true judge.

And no one here is judging other people.

To claim that judging an action is judging a person makes no sense. As I mentioned above, actions are not people, and I would be surprized to hear anyone claim that they are.

 

[Brendan]

My comment about works-in-progress was a bit tongue in cheek in that as are ALL works-in-progress. None of us is perfect, we all struggle, we all have times when we doubt. Personally, I am going through a period of intense personal trial. Things are so bad that I am questioning things I never thought I would. No one is immune from such states - which is one of my points. We can say things like “oh, no, I’d never think that” or “it will never happen to me” - but things can and do happen. It is impossible to predict how we will handle them. All I’m saying is quit implying you’re so much better than those struggling. Remember, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.”

Swan, we are all struggling. Each and everyone of us. No one is claiming anything to the contrary.

The key is we do so as a community, as a Body, His Church. We do not struggle on our own. To do so would only result in failure.

But being a part of the Body of Christ makes the struggle easier.

And yes, that comes from Grace. God offers us the Grace of humility, the Grace not to place our own opinions above His teachings.

The decision is yours, accept the Grace and His yolk, and have your burdened lightened, or not.

 

[goofyjim]

I’ll repeat what I have said before. NOONE has the right to say anyone else is getting it worse than anyone else. We cannot read into Jesus words and make the final judgement. We may be pleasantly surprised to find out how many cafeteria Catholics got to Heaven as well.

 

[Swan]

I’ll repeat what I have said before. NO ONE has the right to say anyone else is getting it worse than anyone else. We cannot read into Jesus words and make the final judgement. We may be pleasantly surprised to find out how many cafeteria Catholics got to Heaven as well.

Thank you!

And for those of you who aren’t judging, maybe you should try not to sound so judgmental. Really. Think about how you say things. Are you implying something even though you don’t come right out and say it? Is your tone confrontational, challenging? Does it seem to indicate moral superiority on your part? And, last but not least, does it do more harm than good (potentially) and is your goal charitable?

Thanks and Happy Easter.