Cafeteria Catholics are getting it worse than non-Christians

[Peeb]

I’ll repeat what I have said before. NOONE has the right to say anyone else is getting it worse than anyone else. We cannot read into Jesus words and make the final judgement. We may be pleasantly surprised to find out how many cafeteria Catholics got to Heaven as well.

Thank you!

And for those of you who aren’t judging, maybe you should try not to sound so judgmental. Really. Think about how you say things. Are you implying something even though you don’t come right out and say it? Is your tone confrontational, challenging? Does it seem to indicate moral superiority on your part? And, last but not least, does it do more harm than good (potentially) and is your goal charitable?

Thanks and Happy Easter.

When one OBSERVES the fact that an individual is not in communion with the teachings of the Church in a grave matter, it is not (or at least should not) be a JUDGMENT as to the fate of person being observed.

In the United States, I am observing many (way too many) instances of folks who fancy themselves “Catholic” while knowing nothing about the teachings of the Church and/or choosing to ignore precepts and undeniable moral truths that might prove difficult or inconvenient.

The fate of those individuals in beyond my knowledge and control. I am making no judgment in observing that this is happening. It does make me sad, however.

 

[Nordar]

Thank you!

And for those of you who aren’t judging, maybe you should try not to sound so judgmental. Really. Think about how you say things. Are you implying something even though you don’t come right out and say it? Is your tone confrontational, challenging? Does it seem to indicate moral superiority on your part? And, last but not least, does it do more harm than good (potentially) and is your goal charitable?

Thanks and Happy Easter.

Perhaps you should look at why you continue to insist that people are making judgements~

 

[Nordar]

I’ll repeat what I have said before. NOONE has the right to say anyone else is getting it worse than anyone else. We cannot read into Jesus words and make the final judgement. We may be pleasantly surprised to find out how many cafeteria Catholics got to Heaven as well.

I repeat NOONE is saying that.

 

[Brendan]

I’ll repeat what I have said before. NOONE has the right to say anyone else is getting it worse than anyone else.

Do you really believe what you are saying??

To take it to it’s logical conclusion, you seem to believe that we cannot tell a Nazi or a Klansman that they are more wrong than Mother Theresa

Why would it be any difference between telling a person they are wrong to burn crosses on black people’s lawns vs. telling them they are wrong to contracept or fornicate.

After all, we cannot see the heart of the Klansman anymore than we cannot read the heart of a couple having pre-marital sex.

The truth is that The Church has the authoriity to decree what is Right and what is Wrong. We can tell others, based on Church teachings, if they are on the right path or not.

We cannot read into Jesus words and make the final judgement.

Final judgement, no. We can (and should) let those who violate Church teachings know that they imperil their souls.

We may be pleasantly surprised to find out how many cafeteria Catholics got to Heaven as well.

If they are, it is in SPITE of their rejection of His teachings than because of it.

 

[Penny_Plain]

If they are, it is in SPITE of their rejection of His teachings than because of it.

Some of us believe that what the Church says and His teachings are not necessarily always the same thing. It is the responsibility of each person to make her best efforts to determine what is right and do her best to live by it.

Within this thread, there is a significant degree of contempt for those who take this responsibility seriously and come to conclusions different from those of the Church or Her apologists.

It starts with the title of this thread – how “lukewarm” Catholics are “getting it worse” than everyone else.

Peeb: In the United States, I am observing many (way too many) instances of folks who fancy themselves “Catholic” while knowing nothing about the teachings of the Church and/or choosing to ignore precepts and undeniable moral truths that might prove difficult or inconvenient.

In other words, “cafeteria Catholics” are either ignorant or deliberately obtuse.

 

[goofyjim]

Some of us believe that what the Church says and His teachings are not necessarily always the same thing. It is the responsibility of each person to make her best efforts to determine what is right and do her best to live by it.

Within this thread, there is a significant degree of contempt for those who take this responsibility seriously and come to conclusions different from those of the Church or Her apologists.

It starts with the title of this thread – how “lukewarm” Catholics are “getting it worse” than everyone else.

In other words, “cafeteria Catholics” are either ignorant or deliberately obtuse.

Or they are compared to Klansmen and Nazis. "Cafeteria Catholics are quite capable of living the beatitudes and the gospel of Matthew 25. These are the people that will be welcomed into the kingdom.

 

[Brendan]

Or they are compared to Klansmen and Nazis.

You didn’t specify any difference at all in your statement

Jim, you said that " NOONE has the right to say anyone else is getting it worse than anyone else".

So, according to you, there really is no differece. Do you retract your statement.

"Cafeteria Catholics are quite capable of living the beatitudes and the gospel of Matthew 25. These are the people that will be welcomed into the kingdom.

Everyone is capable of doing that. The question is, do they?

And there is more to salvation that just giving food to the hungry. Christ Himself said so, otherwise all the Rich Man in Mt 19 could have just dropped some alms in a beggars hat and kept the remaining part of his wealth.

 

[Brendan]

Some of us believe that what the Church says and His teachings are not necessarily always the same thing. It is the responsibility of each person to make her best efforts to determine what is right and do her best to live by it.

If they were making their ‘best effort’ then they would look to the experts on what Christ is teaching, instead of setting themselves up as the final arbitrator on what is moral or not.

Within this thread, there is a significant degree of contempt for those who take this responsibility seriously and come to conclusions different from those of the Church or Her apologists.

And if I came to a differnt conclusion on the value of PI that my math professor did and that of all the math professors since Archimedes. , I would still be marked wrong on the final.

The judgement is too important a final exam to base entirely on our own opinion.

In other words, “cafeteria Catholics” are either ignorant or deliberately obtuse.

Or arrogant. The vast majority I meet consider themselves to be more informed on moral theology or what “Christ truely means” than any Pope or Cardinal. That they are the final arbitrators of what is good or evil. That is pretty darn arrogant.

A faithful Catholic recognizes their own limitations and leaves that up to the true experts.

Why should anyone seek to place themselves above the very words of Christ.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach

• Matt 23 1-3

And we are in a much easier position to follow Christ’s teachings on obedience. No one can claim that John Paul or Benedict do not practice what they preach.

 

[Penny_Plain]

If they were making their ‘best effort’ then they would look to the experts on what Christ is teaching, instead of setting themselves up as the final arbitrator on what is moral or not.

How do you know what somebody’s best effort is? We look to our physicians to advise about our health, but we are the ones who have to live with the results, and the final decision is ours.

And if I came to a differnt conclusion on the value of PI that my math professor did and that of all the math professors since Archimedes. , I would still be marked wrong on the final.

This is not a maths examination. (And Archimedes got the value wrong anyway, but why quibble? 22/7 is pretty close.)

The judgement is too important a final exam to base entirely on our own opinion.

You really don’t get it, do you? Many “CCs” don’t base things entirely on their own opinions. Instead, it’s the application of reason and prayerful consideration to the teachings of the Church and the words of Christ. Some of us just get different answers.

Or arrogant. The vast majority I meet consider themselves to be more informed on moral theology or what “Christ truely means” than any Pope or Cardinal. That they are the final arbitrators of what is good or evil. That is pretty darn arrogant.

This is, of course, all said with love and in a spirit of fraternal correction, right?

I don’t consider myself more informed on moral theology than the Pope. Who has time for that? My problem is that I can’t ask the Pope to come and interpret questions of moral theology for me. I have to do the best I can with my limited resources. And I don’t think I get to use the “I was only following orders” defense on Judgment Day – I have to follow my conscience.

And we are in a much easier position to follow Christ’s teachings on obedience. No one can claim that John Paul or Benedict do not practice what they preach.

I never met either man. I know almost nothing about their private lives. I do wonder whether joining the Hitler Youth was entirely in compliance with Church teachings, but that’s his business, not mine. I do not think Christ meant us to be puppets.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Jim, you said that " NOONE has the right to say anyone else is getting it worse than anyone else".

I think Jim’s point is that you don’t know who’s “getting it worse.” If you don’t know, do you really think you should say?

 

[JonW]

Hi Penny,

I think you hit the nail on the head with conscience. If you truly examine your conscience, pray, find out why the Church teaches what it does, and still come to a different conclusion, you are obliged to follow your conscience. You are still wrong, but your obligation to your conscience is paramount.

Also, your crack about Benedict’s time with Hitler Youth is, as you know, unfair, since membership was mandatory, not a choice. It was immediately after his 14th birthday, and by law he had to join. He and his father hated it and were against the Nazis from the beginning. The young Ratzinger refused to go to the meetings as well. Let’s get our facts straight here folks.

God Bless

Jon

 

[Brendan]

How do you know what somebody’s best effort is? We look to our physicians to advise about our health, but we are the ones who have to live with the results, and the final decision is ours.

Which includes Death, as does the rejection of Church teachings, but in a different kind of death.

Having a bunch of physicans tell you that you have cancer, and arguing that you used reason and prayer to determined that the lump on your liver is perfectly fine is simply nuts.

The same is true for ignoring Popes and bishops who tell someone to stop contracepting, or fornicating.

This is not a maths examination.

It is just as objective.

You really don’t get it, do you? Many “CCs” don’t base things entirely on their own opinions. Instead, it’s the application of reason and prayerful consideration to the teachings of the Church and the words of Christ. Some of us just get different answers.

If they are getting different then something is wrong, either at their end or the Church’s. Why should anyone consider themselves to be better than the Church on this subject.

This is, of course, all said with love and in a spirit of fraternal correction, right?

Of course. It is, after all, quite arrogant.

I don’t consider myself more informed on moral theology than the Pope. Who has time for that?

My problem is that I can’t ask the Pope to come and interpret questions of moral theology for me.

But you just said that

I have to do the best I can with my limited resources. And I don’t think I get to use the “I was only following orders” defense on Judgment Day – I have to follow my conscience.

So did Christ err when He gave the commandment in Mt 23 to his disciples?

How about when the Holy Spirt guided the Vatican I Council when it wrote.

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, **are bound to submit to this power **by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this **not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church **throughout the world.

• Pastor Aeternus Vatican I

Or do you claim that Ecumenical Council Decrees are NOT prevented from error by the Holy Spirit and the above decree is in error.

If you accept the Gospel of Matthew, and the decrees of Ecumenical Councils, the it is clear that Christ and the Holy Spirit want us to obey the Magisterium in Faith, Morals and disciplines of the Church. Are you above that?

I do wonder whether joining the Hitler Youth was entirely in compliance with Church teachings, but that’s his business, not mine. I do not think Christ meant us to be puppets.

Joseph Ratzinger himself never joined the Hitler Youth, his math teacher registered him without young Joesph’s knowledge or participation.

If, without your knowledge, your grade school math teacher put your name down on a regististration list for the KKK, would you consider yourself to have joined? Would anyone consider you to be in violation of any Church teachings over the issue?

 

[Penny_Plain]

Also, your crack about Benedict’s time with Hitler Youth is, as you know, unfair, since membership was mandatory, not a choice. It was immediately after his 14th birthday, and by law he had to join. He and his father hated it and were against the Nazis from the beginning. The young Ratzinger refused to go to the meetings as well. Let’s get our facts straight here folks.

Of course it was unfair. That was the point, and thanks for making it for me.

It is easy to make snap judgements about somebody else’s state of mind. I was hoping somebody a little less … agreeable … would take the bait.

 

[Brendan]

I think Jim’s point is that you don’t know who’s “getting it worse.” If you don’t know, do you really think you should say?

Are you saying one person cannot determine, objectively, that another person is committing a moral error?

Could you make a moral determination between a Klansman buring crosses and Mother Theresa’s charity work? Could you determin if one action was morally superior to the other?

If so, you have determined which person is getting the message of Christ better than the other. (and which one is getting it worse)

If not, then we can open up a thread in the Moral Theology forum to discuss objective morality.

So which one do you honestly adhere to?

 

[Penny_Plain]

Or do you claim that Ecumenical Council Decrees are NOT prevented from error by the Holy Spirit and the above decree is in error.

You’re a bright one!

If you accept the Gospel of Matthew, and the decrees of Ecumenical Councils, the it is clear that Christ and the Holy Spirit want us to obey the Magisterium in Faith, Morals and disciplines of the Church. Are you above that?

You think I’m really arrogant, don’t you?

Above it? No. But I have to apply my conscience (imperfect though it is) to the teachings of the magisterium. If there’s a conflict, I will (after prayerful consideration) follow my conscience.

 

[Brendan]

Of course it was unfair. That was the point, and thanks for making it for me.

It is easy to make snap judgements about somebody else’s state of mind. I was hoping somebody a little less … agreeable … would take the bait.

It was unfair in that it was an action that he did not commit.

This thread is about actions that people actually DO, instead of what their math teacher does.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Could you make a moral determination between a Klansman buring crosses and Mother Theresa’s charity work? Could you determin if one action was morally superior to the other?

If so, you have determined which person is getting the message of Christ better than the other. (and which one is getting it worse)

I agree. But the meaning of “getting it worse” in the title of the thread refers to the consequences of the person’s receptiveness to the message of Christ. Sort of in the sense of “You’re going to get it when your Da gets home.”

I claim no ability to determine whether David Duke or Mother Theresa is going to “get it worse” in that sense. I know what I hope, but I’m pretty sure that’s up to the justice and mercy of God, and I don’t understand those at all.

So which one do you honestly adhere to?

Now I’m dishonest, too? Brendan, you really need to work on your people skills. Next you’ll be telling me I’m fat and poorly dressed.

 

[Brendan]

You’re a bright one!

Ah, so why do you now reject the Councils?

You think I’m really arrogant, don’t you?

To the extent that one thinks themselves to be more ‘in touch’ with Christ that the Magisterium, yes, I do.

Above it?

Yes, Christ, in Matthew 23:1-3 told his disciples to follow all that those in spiritual authority said. What is your take on Christ’s works.

No. But I have to apply my conscience (imperfect though it is) to the teachings of the magisterium. If there’s a conflict, I will (after prayerful consideration) follow my conscience.

I see that you dropped ‘Reason’ out of the picture now. Why is that?

I did notice that you mentioned that you did not have the time to read up on what the Popes had to say about the issues you were reflecting on.

Is that you did not choose to investige the reasons for the Church teachings that you stopped using reason as a guide?

 

[Penny_Plain]

I did notice that you mentioned that you did not have the time to read up on what the Popes had to say about the issues you were reflecting on.

Is that you did not choose to investige the reasons for the Church teachings that you stopped using reason as a guide?

Is that really what I said?

 

[Brendan]

Hi Penny,

I think you hit the nail on the head with conscience. If you truly examine your conscience, pray, find out why the Church teaches what it does, and still come to a different conclusion, you are obliged to follow your conscience. You are still wrong, but your obligation to your conscience is paramount.

The obligation to follow one’s conscience only applies to a “well formed conscience” which you did hit on.

The issue is that, by Penny’s own admission, she has not investigated the reasons for the Church’s teachings, and thus following her conscience can be a dangerous action.