Cafeteria Catholics are getting it worse than non-Christians

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goofyjim said:
But the Klansmen and Nazis are not loving their neighbor as Christ instructed. Cafeteria Catholics are. They’re just living the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. So to compare the two is way out of bounds.
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I appreciate this comment very much. 🙂 I’ve always thought Jesus took the spirit of the law side over the letter of the law side and it’s one of the things I really love about him. I also think this is why he warned so often of judging others - even their actions. Like that old saying “never judge your brother until you have walked a mile in his moccasins”. This is because you can’t know the reasons the person made a choice until you’ve been that person. Which brings me to my belief in mitigating circumstances. For example, stealing is wrong, but if you’re starving and steal food you are doing something that is objectively wrong but not subjectively so given the circumstances.

I also don’t believe the infallibility claim. I think this is a “wishful thinking” misinterpretation of scripture.

Peace.
 
Swan said:
I appreciate this comment very much. 🙂 I’ve always thought Jesus took the spirit of the law side over the letter of the law side and it’s one of the things I really love about him. I also think this is why he warned so often of judging others - even their actions. Like that old saying “never judge your brother until you have walked a mile in his moccasins”. This is because you can’t know the reasons the person made a choice until you’ve been that person. Which brings me to my belief in mitigating circumstances. For example, stealing is wrong, but if you’re starving and steal food you are doing something that is objectively wrong but not subjectively so given the circumstances.

I also don’t believe the infallibility claim. I think this is a “wishful thinking” misinterpretation of scripture.

Peace.
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This sort of ‘subjective’ self-interpretation of right and wrong is why we really need the teachings of the Magisterium.
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
This sort of ‘subjective’ self-interpretation of right and wrong is why we really need the teachings of the Magisterium.
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The Magisterium is infallible because it infallibly says it’s infallible.

Hmm.

Many of you will choose to read this as an out-and-out rejection of the Magisterium and the teaching authority of the Church. It’s not. But bishops and popes and theologians are people, and people can be wrong.

Yes, I am also a person. Yes, I can be wrong, too.
 
Penny_Plain said:
The Magisterium is infallible because it infallibly says it’s infallible.

Hmm.

Many of you will choose to read this as an out-and-out rejection of the Magisterium and the teaching authority of the Church. It’s not. But bishops and popes and theologians are people, and people can be wrong.

Yes, I am also a person. Yes, I can be wrong, too.
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No where does it say that bishops, popes and theologians are infallible as people.

But yes, I see your statement as an out and out rejection based on your misunderstanding.
 
dmelosi said:
No where does it say that bishops, popes and theologians are infallible as people.

But yes, I see your statement as an out and out rejection based on your misunderstanding.
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I feel certain that you do.

They don’t stop being people just because they are guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
goofyjim said:
They’re just living the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
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Swan said:
I appreciate this comment very much. 🙂 I’ve always thought Jesus took the spirit of the law side over the letter of the law side and it’s one of the things I really love about him. I also think this is why he warned so often of judging others - even their actions.
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Unfortunately, one can easily take the whole “spirit of the law” argument and make it into one of those “elastic clauses” to justify ANYTHING. That’s also why the Bible warns against private interpretation in 2 Peter 3:16.
 
dmelosi said:
What do you think infallibility means?
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Now I’m a dictionary?

Here is my position. I think that Popes, bishops, and theologians are guided by the Holy Spirit. For that matter, I think everyone is guided by the Holy Spirit. However, being human means that things get lost in the translation.

For anyone to claim that he or she gets the guidance of the Holy Spirit exactly right is arrogant and incompatible with what we know of the ability of humans to understand the Divine Mind.
 
Penny_Plain said:
Now I’m a dictionary?

Here is my position. I think that Popes, bishops, and theologians are guided by the Holy Spirit. For that matter, I think everyone is guided by the Holy Spirit. However, being human means that things get lost in the translation.

For anyone to claim that he or she gets the guidance of the Holy Spirit exactly right is arrogant and incompatible with what we know of the ability of humans to understand the Divine Mind.
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What I was trying to say is that it appears you do not understand what Papal infallibility means.

catholic.com/library/papal_infallibility.asp
 
It is not individual men that the Holy Spirit uses in these instances. It is the Church that the Holy Spirit uses. The reason why the pope is infallible in those rare cases when he is, is because the Church, by the Holy Spirit, makes it so, not because he made it so. Moreover, the reason we know this is by the authoritative word of Jesus Christ. Now there is a truly infallible source of authority.

God Bless

Jon
 
JonW said:
It is not individual men that the Holy Spirit uses in these instances. It is the Church that the Holy Spirit uses. The reason why the pope is infallible in those rare cases when he is, is because the Church, by the Holy Spirit, makes it so, not because he made it so. Moreover, the reason we know this is by the authoritative word of Jesus Christ. Now there is a truly infallible source of authority.
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Yes but no?

I agree that Jesus Christ is infallible.

I do not agree that Jesus anywhere infallibly pronounced that the Church is infallible.

My view is that the Church is one of many human institutions, composed of humans, doing the best it can to interpret the teachings of Jesus. Because it is a human institution, it is as prone to error as a legislature, a jury, or the Chamber of Commerce.
 
Penny_Plain said:
Yes but no?

I agree that Jesus Christ is infallible.

I do not agree that Jesus anywhere infallibly pronounced that the Church is infallible.

My view is that the Church is one of many human institutions, composed of humans, doing the best it can to interpret the teachings of Jesus. Because it is a human institution, it is as prone to error as a legislature, a jury, or the Chamber of Commerce.
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Hmmm… think again.
 
We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).

God Bless

Jon
 
JonW said:
We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).
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Not exactly the same thing, is it?
 
Penny_Plain said:
I see nothing in that article incompatible with my understanding of the Church’s teachings on the doctrine of papal infallibility.
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How is this (exerpt from the article):
"Catholic Doctrine:
Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in doctrinal unity with the pope, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true.
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compatible with this:
Penny Plain said:
For anyone to claim that he or she gets the guidance of the Holy Spirit exactly right is arrogant and incompatible with what we know of the ability of humans to understand the Divine Mind.
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and this?
Penny_Plain said:
My view is that the Church is one of many human institutions, composed of humans, doing the best it can to interpret the teachings of Jesus. Because it is a human institution, it is as prone to error as a legislature, a jury, or the Chamber of Commerce.
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While I don’t dispute your right to claim that the HCC is not infallible in matters of faith and morals, I do find fault in your argument that you claim to be Catholic, yet not believe in this fundamental doctrine.
 
qui_est_ce said:
How is this (exerpt from the article):

compatible with this:
and this?

While I don’t dispute your right to claim that the HCC is not infallible in matters of faith and morals, I do find fault in your argument that you claim to be Catholic, yet not believe in this fundamental doctrine.
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If Plain Penny is Catholic, then “The Donald” is about to enter a seminary!😉
 
Nordar said:
If Plain Penny is Catholic, then “The Donald” is about to enter a seminary!😉
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I really, really don’t mean to be rude and maybe you’re just winking so I shouldn’t say this here - but I don’t really understand why anyone cares what Penny, or anyone else, believes. I see this all the time, the “you’re not Catholic enough - get out!” and I wonder what’s it to you? As long as people aren’t teaching or holding themselves out to be authorities, I don’t see why everyone gets so upset. These are personal struggles. Why cann’t you just pray for the person and give them the benefit of the doubt that they are doing the best they can? I know you feel you have to correct, but you can go that gently, you don’t need a sledge hammer. :o
 
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