Cafeteria Traditionalists

[mattkubes]

What a strange title for this thread. Cafeteria “Catholics” deny matters of dogma and doctrine. How is that even remotely similar to disagreeing with aspects of the 1983 Canon Law (which certainly can change)?

I’m not saying I agree with what the traditionalists said - I can’t because you didn’t really give any clear examples. But to imply that there’s a significant group of traditional Catholics who are guilty of the same attitude as many Modernists is ridiculous. There may be some, but then they’re not very traditional, are they?

 

[Will_S]

But the Church does not promote Saturday evening Mass for the EF in the first place.

Actually,
28. Furthermore, by virtue of its character of special law, within its own area, the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum derogates from those provisions of law, connected with the sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962.
Universae Ecclesiae

That determines the law with respect to how Mass is celebrated. It doesn’t change the fact that a Saturday vigil Mass fulfills the Sunday obligation, even if the Saturday vigil Mass is a TLM.

About Saturday vigils however, I question how a 4:00 PM Mass can be said to fulfill the Sunday obligation, since historically, the new day began at sundown and the Sun is never down at 4:00 PM (well with exception of extreme latitudes in the Winter).

 

[laszlo]

By no means am I questioning the validity of the Novus Ordo, rather its efficacy (given the way it is commonly celebrated), in relation to the Traditional Latin Mass.

The efficacy of any sacrament including the Eucharist is Ex opere operato, independent from the form until it is valid, independent of the qualities of the person who validly administers the sacrament. Jesus Christ acts no human being or form.

 

[Timothysis]

What a strange title for this thread. Cafeteria “Catholics” deny matters of dogma and doctrine. How is that even remotely similar to disagreeing with aspects of the 1983 Canon Law (which certainly can change)?

I’m not saying I agree with what the traditionalists said - I can’t because you didn’t really give any clear examples. But to imply that there’s a significant group of traditional Catholics who are guilty of the same attitude as many Modernists is ridiculous. There may be some, but then they’re not very traditional, are they?

The shoe fits on both feet. You just drew a dividing line between two groups, labeling one “traditional Catholics” and the other “Modernists.” What makes one group correct while the other is not?

The op said that he heard these people say such things as “Oh, that new stuff doesn’t apply to us” or "Well it doesn’t matter because that anticipatory Mass thing doesn’t work in our rite anyway". One can be just as wrong as the other if they swing too far to the right, compared to those who are just as wrong by swinging to far to the left.

 

[At_Trent]

That determines the law with respect to how Mass is celebrated. It doesn’t change the fact that a Saturday vigil Mass fulfills the Sunday obligation, even if the Saturday vigil Mass is a TLM.

About Saturday vigils however, I question how a 4:00 PM Mass can be said to fulfill the Sunday obligation, since historically, the new day began at sundown and the Sun is never down at 4:00 PM (well with exception of extreme latitudes in the Winter).

I never implied that. My post is nowhere near the context you’ve placed it.

 

[Danquayle76]

I believe the answer is that traditionally it did not count for the Sunday obligation. However, until the Holy Week reforms of the 1950s the Easter Vigil was held on Saturday morning, so I doubt anyone could have reasonably expected it to “count” for the next day.

As to “why does the Gospel reading say Christ is risen if it’s Saturday,” well, why did they celebrate it in the morning when the Exsultet says Haec nox est (“This is the night”)? No very good reason, that’s for sure. You can understand why there was an impetus to restore it to the nighttime. Ideally, now, the Vigil would start late enough that the actual celebration of the Mass would take place after midnight and thus fall on Sunday proper.

Yes, I am aware that the Easter Vigil used to be held in the morning…I simply don’t understand how this possibly made sense or worked! Are the use of candles during the vigil all post-1955 innovations? I love the old traditions of the church, but an early morning Eater Vigil is one I can do without!

 

[blackrobe]

But the Church does not promote Saturday evening Mass for the EF in the first place.

Actually,
28. Furthermore, by virtue of its character of special law, within its own area, the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum derogates from those provisions of law, connected with the sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962.
Universae Ecclesiae

Indeed, but that does not create a second Latin Rite. People who worship exclusively in the EF and its traditions are simply mistaken if they imagine they are part of some alternative rite and their pastors should instruct them accordingly.
AMDG
jsa

 

[King_M]

I love the traditional latin mass (I attend it everyday), but I am increasingly developing a low opinion of self-professed traditional Catholics. Something that annoys me to no end is how many traditionalists will complain about “Cafeteria Catholics”…and then they do the same thing by picking and choosing which doctrines they want to follow! ARGH!!!

Sometimes I feel like I am the only Catholic that believes in both the Council of Trent…and the Second Vatican Council…

P.S. FIRST POST!!!

 

[At_Trent]

Indeed, but that does not create a second Latin Rite. People who worship exclusively in the EF and its traditions are simply mistaken if they imagine they are part of some alternative rite and their pastors should instruct them accordingly.
AMDG
jsa

Thing is, never have we been told there are two forms of the Latin Rite until the SP. Unless one reads it, they don’t know of the pope’s words. And with so many bishops keeping the SP hush hush or dissing it, it’s no wonder.

 

[King_M]

King_M:
I’m new to the forum and find it interesting , especially the Love of the Traditional Mass…I attend the Traditional Mass every Sunday and have since 1993…I don’t want to stir up a Hornets nest but ,I won’t ever attend another New Mass…All of them are so irreverant and people just wear anything to church…shorts , flip flops etc. The talking is incessant and if people aren’t talking , they are shaking hands, getting out of the pew and walking up and down the aisles glad handing. I was raised on the Traditional Mass all through grade and High school, so I know what reverence is.Do all N.O. Masses have this same problem ? Children don’t have the pleasure of a pius church because parents let the kids scream and do not instruct them to be quiet…Thank God when I left the church I soon discovered the Traditional Mass.If I lose the Traditional Mass, which could happen. I won’t set foot inside a N.O. Mass

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I’m new to the forum and find it interesting , especially the Love of the Traditional Mass…I attend the Traditional Mass every Sunday and have since 1993…I don’t want to stir up a Hornets nest but ,I won’t ever attend another New Mass…All of them are so irreverant and people just wear anything to church…shorts , flip flops etc. The talking is incessant and if people aren’t talking , they are shaking hands, getting out of the pew and walking up and down the aisles glad handing. I was raised on the Traditional Mass all through grade and High school, so I know what reverence is.Do all N.O. Masses have this same problem ? Children don’t have the pleasure of a pius church because parents let the kids scream and do not instruct them to be quiet…Thank God when I left the church I soon discovered the Traditional Mass.If I lose the Traditional Mass, which could happen. I won’t set foot inside a N.O. Mass

Are you saying that if you can’t get to an extraordinary form Mass that you won’t go to Mass at all. That you will give up being with Jesus because a few people are wearing flip flops??

 

[Danquayle76]

Are you saying that if you can’t get to an extraordinary form Mass that you won’t go to Mass at all. That you will give up being with Jesus because a few people are wearing flip flops??

Something to add to this is that when you take this attitude you are not much better than people who have organized clown masses. You have turned the mass into something that exists solely because it is pleasing to you. Think how impressed God will be that you attend a liturgy despite the fact that there are other forms of the liturgy that are much more pleaisng to you.

In an extreme case where there is a Mass where there is blatant liturgical abuses, but none that invalidate the mass, you should still attend if you have no other option as if Christ has to show up and suffer you should as well.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m new to the forum and find it interesting , especially the Love of the Traditional Mass…I attend the Traditional Mass every Sunday and have since 1993…I don’t want to stir up a Hornets nest but ,I won’t ever attend another New Mass…All of them are so irreverant and people just wear anything to church…shorts , flip flops etc. The talking is incessant and if people aren’t talking , they are shaking hands, getting out of the pew and walking up and down the aisles glad handing. I was raised on the Traditional Mass all through grade and High school, so I know what reverence is.Do all N.O. Masses have this same problem ? Children don’t have the pleasure of a pius church because parents let the kids scream and do not instruct them to be quiet…Thank God when I left the church I soon discovered the Traditional Mass.If I lose the Traditional Mass, which could happen. I won’t set foot inside a N.O. Mass

There are some very reverent OF masses, one of them being Father Rutler’s 11 AM Sunday mass at Church of Our Savior in NYC.

 

[blackrobe]

I’m new to the forum and find it interesting , especially the Love of the Traditional Mass…I attend the Traditional Mass every Sunday and have since 1993…I don’t want to stir up a Hornets nest but ,I won’t ever attend another New Mass…All of them are so irreverant and people just wear anything to church…shorts , flip flops etc. The talking is incessant and if people aren’t talking , they are shaking hands, getting out of the pew and walking up and down the aisles glad handing. I was raised on the Traditional Mass all through grade and High school, so I know what reverence is.Do all N.O. Masses have this same problem ? Children don’t have the pleasure of a pius church because parents let the kids scream and do not instruct them to be quiet…Thank God when I left the church I soon discovered the Traditional Mass.If I lose the Traditional Mass, which could happen. I won’t set foot inside a N.O. Mass

I am blessed with the opportunity to assist at any of several reverent Novus Ordo Masses on a daily basis, although I do so infrequently. However if I felt as you do, I certainly would not trumpet my intent to abandon the Faith in the event I cannot find a Mass that suits me. The Mass is the Mass and it’s not about your comfort level.
AMDG
jsa

 

[Robert_Burns]

I love the traditional latin mass (I attend it everyday), but I am increasingly developing a low opinion of self-professed traditional Catholics. Something that annoys me to no end is how many traditionalists will complain about “Cafeteria Catholics”…and then they do the same thing by picking and choosing which doctrines they want to follow! ARGH!!!

Sometimes I feel like I am the only Catholic that believes in both the Council of Trent…and the Second Vatican Council…

P.S. FIRST POST!!!

And the difference between them and you is what precisely? Personally I dont think it appropriate to complain about the faith or lack thereof in your own opinion of your fellow Catholics. There is a disconnect in unity and it runs deeper than Rite.

Certainly by living ones faith and being the example and praying one for another breeds unity. Complaining about others or their demonstrated expressions of Faith simply opposes that.

We are Laity. As such , perhaps we should share our faith instead of our opinions.

pax

 

[Stylites]

Are you saying that if you can’t get to an extraordinary form Mass that you won’t go to Mass at all. That you will give up being with Jesus because a few people are wearing flip flops??

“Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword?”

No, but flip-flops could.

 

[Stylites]

And the difference between them and you is what precisely? Personally I dont think it appropriate to complain about the faith or lack thereof in your own opinion of your fellow Catholics. There is a disconnect in unity and it runs deeper than Rite.

Certainly by living ones faith and being the example and praying one for another breeds unity. Complaining about others or their demonstrated expressions of Faith simply opposes that.

We are Laity. As such , perhaps we should share our faith instead of our opinions.

pax

Did you see King M’s post in this thread? Seems like a typical traditionalist “aghast-at-others-brings-me-to-the-brink-of-apostacy” essay we see all too often.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What a strange title for this thread. Cafeteria “Catholics” deny matters of dogma and doctrine. How is that even remotely similar to disagreeing with aspects of the 1983 Canon Law (which certainly can change)?

I’m not saying I agree with what the traditionalists said - I can’t because you didn’t really give any clear examples. But to imply that there’s a significant group of traditional Catholics who are guilty of the same attitude as many Modernists is ridiculous. There may be some, but then they’re not very traditional, are they?

Significant, can’t conclusively say. But there are many roaming around the internet through forums and blogs who obviously think some or many or even all things of the Church post-Vatican II do not apply to them.

Sometimes I wonder where such attitude comes from. The FSSP parish I’ve visited in fact makes clarifications about the 1983 Canon Law, making it clear that they are under it. So for sure its not coming from the clergy of these Traditional parishes.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’m new to the forum and find it interesting , especially the Love of the Traditional Mass…I attend the Traditional Mass every Sunday and have since 1993…I don’t want to stir up a Hornets nest but ,I won’t ever attend another New Mass…All of them are so irreverant and people just wear anything to church…shorts , flip flops etc. The talking is incessant and if people aren’t talking , they are shaking hands, getting out of the pew and walking up and down the aisles glad handing. I was raised on the Traditional Mass all through grade and High school, so I know what reverence is.Do all N.O. Masses have this same problem ? Children don’t have the pleasure of a pius church because parents let the kids scream and do not instruct them to be quiet…Thank God when I left the church I soon discovered the Traditional Mass.If I lose the Traditional Mass, which could happen. I won’t set foot inside a N.O. Mass

This does NOT go on at all OF Masses, and it is wrong to generalize as you did by saying “all of them are so…” And I think you are exaggerating quite a bit. Are there problems with reverence in SOME churches–yes. Is it all or even a majority of them? No. I, for one have not seen most of what you have described. (I have seen the flip-flops and shorts).

I’m getting rather tired of this. And if you didn’t want to stir up a hornet’s nest, why did you post such a thing?

 

[JReducation]

That determines the law with respect to how Mass is celebrated. It doesn’t change the fact that a Saturday vigil Mass fulfills the Sunday obligation, even if the Saturday vigil Mass is a TLM.

About Saturday vigils however, I question how a 4:00 PM Mass can be said to fulfill the Sunday obligation, since historically, the new day began at sundown and the Sun is never down at 4:00 PM (well with exception of extreme latitudes in the Winter).

I think I can help you here. I don’t know how it happened, but I do know what happened. Until the Council of Trent, the liturgical life of the Western Church was driven by religious orders. Secular priests followed along, with all due respect to them. At some point the secular clergy and laity went on their own and the religious orders continued to do what we had always done.

In religious houses of men, to this day, Sunday begins with Vespers on Saturday. Vespers is celebrated between 4:30 – 6:00 pm. That’s where the Church gets its tradition. It’s really a reconciliation between the secular and the monastic or as I say it, getting everyone back on the same page. Because Roman Catholicism is highly European, that’s how the 4:30 time comes into play. Long before the existence of electricity, sunset in winter was around 4:30 and religious houses were very dark. You celebrated Vespers at dusk, while you still had some light. Once you celebrated Vespers, you could not go back to the liturgy of Saturday. You have to move forward. This is still the rule. For example, people who pray the Office of Readings instead of Matins, will pray the Office of Readings for Sunday after Vespers on Saturday, because liturgically, it’s Sunday.

Along the same line, the mass that is celebrated Saturday night is not a vigil mass or an anticipated mass. It is the Sunday mass. Those terms were incorrectly applied in the USA. The readings and collects are the same. Therefore, you can celebrate either the OF or the EF on Saturday evening. A vigil mass is different from the mass of the day. The readings, collects and even rubrics for a vigil mass are different from that of the day, observe the Easter Vigil and Midnight Mass at Christmas. However, the Church allows you to fulfill your Easter Sunday obligation and Christmas Day obligations with the Vigil mass for obvious reasons.

This has nothing to do with what you said, but I’ll just throw it in here. The EF has nothing to do with Canon Law, the Council or the CCC. People who choose to attend the EF exclusively, are still bound by the Code of Canon Law of 1983, must still use the CCC as the authoritative catechism of the Catholic Church and must comply with whatever is required by Vatican II. We don’t have two Latin Churches. There is only one Latin Church. Only the Easetrn Catholics are allowed to have their own Code of Canon Law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF