Cafeteria Traditionalists

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Thing is, never have we been told there are two forms of the Latin Rite until the SP. Unless one reads it, they don’t know of the pope’s words. And with so many bishops keeping the SP hush hush or dissing it, it’s no wonder. 🤷
Excellent point and speaks directly to the original post: Pastors should be informing the faithful of all the facts, not merely the facts with which they are comfortable.
AMDG
jsa
 
I love the title. And this is a good discussion, except for the gratuitous digs at the 99% of the Catholics in America who don’t attend the EF.

I made a reference to “reenacters” in another post, and it was not well received. This post touches on that point. What time do those that call themselves traditionalists live in, as far as their Catholic experience?

I have read the references in this thread relating to adhering to the rubrics of 1962 and not following those things in law promulgated since. I understand there are no altar server who are female, in some places there are no permanent deacons. I have, in other threads,noticed an attitude of “authentic worship” that revolves around getting things “just so” in terms of how things were in the late fifties early sixties.

So, what’s the story - 2011 or 1962?
 
Significant, can’t conclusively say. But there are many roaming around the internet through forums and blogs who obviously think some or many or even all things of the Church post-Vatican II do not apply to them.

Sometimes I wonder where such attitude comes from. The FSSP parish I’ve visited in fact makes clarifications about the 1983 Canon Law, making it clear that they are under it. So for sure its not coming from the clergy of these Traditional parishes.
When I first started attending mass, I became a little confused because one parishioner asked me if I knew the fasting rules and I said, Yes. No eating or drinking besides water and meds one hour before receiving communion. She said, “That’s for the Novus Ordo. We follow the three hour rule”.

I realize now she was confused because I have not heard anyone else say that. They may say, “Well it used to be 3 hours but Vatican II changed it to 1.” But they don’t say those who attend the EF should fast for 3 hours.
 
I could be completely wrong here, but doesn’t the Easter Vigil in the extraordinary form count as an Easter Sunday mass? If it doesn’t…then why is there a mass? Why does the church spring back into life with organ music and the return of lights? Why does the Gospel reading say Christ is risen…if its still Saturday?
I can’t speak for other TLM Easter Vigils, but the Mass that the FSSP does around where I used to live, starts late enough on Saturday, by the time “the church springs back into life,” it’s already Sunday morning.
 
When I first started attending mass, I became a little confused because one parishioner asked me if I knew the fasting rules and I said, Yes. No eating or drinking besides water and meds one hour before receiving communion. She said, “That’s for the Novus Ordo. We follow the three hour rule”.

I realize now she was confused because I have not heard anyone else say that. They may say, “Well it used to be 3 hours but Vatican II changed it to 1.” But they don’t say those who attend the EF should fast for 3 hours.
Now this is what may cause some problems: the parishoner should not have asked you that question in the first place. Not his job and not his business. People do not need to be policing others at Mass. How many of us, when we see a new person at Mass ask them if they know the “rules” about Mass?
 
When I first started attending mass, I became a little confused because one parishioner asked me if I knew the fasting rules and I said, Yes. No eating or drinking besides water and meds one hour before receiving communion. She said, “That’s for the Novus Ordo. We follow the three hour rule”.

I realize now she was confused because I have not heard anyone else say that. They may say, “Well it used to be 3 hours but Vatican II changed it to 1.” But they don’t say those who attend the EF should fast for 3 hours.
Or from midnight and without water, since that was the rule until 1953. The three-hour-and-water-is-OK rule (which I myself observe) was only in effect from 1953-1966, but it seems to have many adherents.
 
I love the title. And this is a good discussion, except for the gratuitous digs at the 99% of the Catholics in America who don’t attend the EF.

I made a reference to “reenacters” in another post, and it was not well received. This post touches on that point. What time do those that call themselves traditionalists live in, as far as their Catholic experience?

I have read the references in this thread relating to adhering to the rubrics of 1962 and not following those things in law promulgated since. I understand there are no altar server who are female, in some places there are no permanent deacons. I have, in other threads,noticed an attitude of “authentic worship” that revolves around getting things “just so” in terms of how things were in the late fifties early sixties.

So, what’s the story - 2011 or 1962?
As Fr. Z reminds us, Universae Ecclesiae recognizes that liturgical practices that conflict with the 1962 missal are excluded from the EF. A deacon is a deacon, so despite the preferences of some not to have permanent deacons around the EF, this is not an issue, and plenty of EF Masses, including a few FSSP apostolates, have made use of them. Altar girls, however, cannot be used, as Father explains on his website.

"UE 28 reads.
"28 – Praeterea, cum sane de lege speciali agitur, quoad materiam propriam, Litterae Apostolicae Summorum Pontificum **derogant **omnibus legibus liturgicis, sacrorum rituum propriis, **exinde ab anno 1962 **promulgatis, et cum rubricis librorum liturgicorum anni 1962 non congruentibus.

“Furthermore, by virtue of its character of special law, within its own area, the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum **derogates **from those provisions of law, connected with the sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962.
"Derogate means that things are partially replaced, set aside. Insofar as the use of the 1962 books is concerned, if there is something that came into law after 1962, and if that thing or practice conflicts with what is in the 1962 books, then those post-1962 conflicting things don’t apply to the use of the 1962 books. In other words, if there is a conflict, they are excluded.”

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/universae-ecclesiae-28-and-altar-girls-for-the-extraordinary-form/
 
When I first started attending mass, I became a little confused because one parishioner asked me if I knew the fasting rules and I said, Yes. No eating or drinking besides water and meds one hour before receiving communion. She said, “That’s for the Novus Ordo. We follow the three hour rule”.

I realize now she was confused because I have not heard anyone else say that. They may say, “Well it used to be 3 hours but Vatican II changed it to 1.” But they don’t say those who attend the EF should fast for 3 hours.
I believe that this is a good example that people’s hearts are in the right place, but they don’t always understand the subtlies of law. SP is only about the mass. It does exactly what it says. I releases secular priests to celebrate it for their congregation whenever they wish to do so and for religious superiors to grant the same permission to their ordained members, if it’s consistent with the laws of the their institute. End of story.

Things like the fast, that Saturday night mass, even the style of the vestments themselves are not regulated by SP. The rubrics do not trump the law. They were never intended to do that. The ruibrics are intended to guide the celebrant and the congregation through each step of the mass.

I know that I threw in there the vestments, so hold on. Even the fiddleback chasuble that many people love is no required by the rubrics of the missal of 1962. There were many styles of chasuble in the history of the Church. The Roman cut, I believe that’s the proper name of the style that is currently used, is one of many. OK, don’t ask me the names of these things, because I don’t keep up with the fashions. I have a hard time keeping up with which habit we’re wearing.

My point is that people, with their heart in the right place, are making some legal mistakes. They don’t know that the rules that govern things that are not part of the ritual have changed and those rules apply as they are. You can have a Saturday night mass in the Extraordinary Form. You can have permanent deacons. You can eat one hour before Holy Communion. If the priest has two masses on the same morning, he’s not bound to the fast for the second mass. He can eat between the two masses, which was not allowed prior to 1983. CAN, does not mean that anyone is going to force you to do it. You can fast a week before Holy Communion, if you want to do so. At the least, you must fast one hour. Even that is waved for people who have health problems. I’m one of them. I’m diabetic. When I need to eat, I need to eat. However, the rule does not say that I can’t receive Holy Communion because I had a sandwich five minutes before mass.

Current rules, outside of the ritual and common sense sill apply. I have never heard any priest or bishop who supports the EF tell people anything different. My guess is that some people assume that since this is the missal of 1962, we follow the rules that were in place in 1962. That is not what SP says, but many people who attend the EF and OF have never read SP. We can’t really blame that on the bishops either, because many people who attend the OF have never read the GIRM either. I guess that I’m trying to say is that most people don’t like to read. They just want to go to mass and they follow the rules as they imagine them to be.

All that being said, I agree with the poster who said that the party had no right to ask you if you knew the rules. That’s what makes some people look more Catholic than the pope and it puts the congregant on the spot. Suppose you had not known or suppose you had been thin skinned, that may have made you feel uncomfortable, as if you have to pass some kind of screening to attend an EF mass.

That’s why I recently told a woman who came to me all upset because she was called out by a congregant for wearing slacks to an EF mass and no veil, I said, “Poppycock. That’s not in the rubrics and you were attending mass at a Franciscan chapel, not a parish. When at the Franciscan chapel you follow the friars’ regulations, not another congregant. At a parish, you follow the pastor’s rules.”

I’m not sure how to help people separate the form from the rules. It’s the same problem with Vatican II and the Code of Canon Law. Many things were changed by the Code of Canon Law, not Vatican II. The Code came almost 20 years later, though Pope Paul VI had been working on it before he died. The final edition for the Latin Church came out in 1983. Why say, “Vatican II changed that”? Vatican II did no such thing. The law changed. It would have changed with or without Vatican II. It’s not the first time or the last that Canon Law is revised. It was revised in 1917 and there was no council in 1917. Do you see what I mean? People make connections that don’t exist. The form of the mass does not bother me. Making rules that don’t exist, for either form, that does bother me. That’s either a person who wants to control or a person who does not know. The former needs to back down. The latter needs education.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
As Fr. Z reminds us, Universae Ecclesiae recognizes that liturgical practices that conflict with the 1962 missal are excluded from the EF. A deacon is a deacon, so despite the preferences of some not to have permanent deacons around the EF, this is not an issue, and plenty of EF Masses, including a few FSSP apostolates, have made use of them. Altar girls, however, cannot be used, as Father explains on his website.

"UE 28 reads.
"28 – Praeterea, cum sane de lege speciali agitur, quoad materiam propriam, Litterae Apostolicae Summorum Pontificum **derogant **omnibus legibus liturgicis, sacrorum rituum propriis, **exinde ab anno 1962 **promulgatis, et cum rubricis librorum liturgicorum anni 1962 non congruentibus.

“Furthermore, by virtue of its character of special law, within its own area, the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum **derogates **from those provisions of law, connected with the sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962.
"Derogate means that things are partially replaced, set aside. Insofar as the use of the 1962 books is concerned, if there is something that came into law after 1962, and if that thing or practice conflicts with what is in the 1962 books, then those post-1962 conflicting things don’t apply to the use of the 1962 books. In other words, if there is a conflict, they are excluded.”

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/universae-ecclesiae-28-and-altar-girls-for-the-extraordinary-form/
I love Fr. Z. He’s a good guy and every intelligent, as well as funny. I enjoy him in real time. However, remember, he’s just one voice and he’d be the first to tell you this. I always like to look at his comments and then I go to the Franciscans of the Immaculate and look at their comments. They have a wonderful lay brother who is a theologian and a liturgist. He’s been working onthe EF missal for the Franciscans, as some of you know, Franciscans do not follow the Roman missal or calendar. We’ve always had our own. However, our missal was abrogated, because it predates 1962. We have the OF in the new Roman-Franciscan Missal. Now we need a new Seraphic Missal with the mass of 1962. In any case, Brother has some very interesting reflections on their website as well. When I combine them with those of Fr. Z, I get a better picture of what’s what rather than who likes which part.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You can fast for three hours or the whole night before Mass, if you want to. It’s a nice devotion.

Likewise, using the best vestments and accoutrements you have is a nice way of honouring the King Of Kings, so why not do it?

I take the attitude of ‘nothing for nothing and something for something’; if you want something
from God, what are ya gonna trade for it? Twist His arm a little 😉
 
You can fast for three hours or the whole night before Mass, if you want to. It’s a nice devotion.

Likewise, using the best vestments and accoutrements you have is a nice way of honouring the King Of Kings, so why not do it?

I take the attitude of ‘nothing for nothing and something for something’; if you want something
from God, what are ya gonna trade for it? Twist His arm a little 😉
Twist his arm? No that’s funny. You just reminded me of St. Teresa of Avila. When she wanted something from God, she’d call him on the carpet. Now THAT is faith. Can you imagine how intimate her relationship was with God that she felt that she could call him on the carpet and then give him an assignment?
You can even pig out at the all-you-can-eat buffet restaurant on Sunday morning and then go straight to Mass and receive Holy Communion. 👍

:(:(😦
As long as you don’t get sick to your stomach and you finish eating one hour before Holy Communion.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Franciscans do not follow the Roman missal or calendar. We’ve always had our own. However, our missal was abrogated, because it predates 1962.

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
My local parish where I celebrate the EF is a Franciscan Parish. Recently the priest began using the old Franciscan Missal on the grounds that Universae Ecclesiae states (in article 32) that “the use of the liturgical books proper to the Religious Orders which were in effect in 1962 is permitted.” The priest stated that the Francisican Missal (although dated from 1955 I believe) was in use in 1962 and is therefore can now be used.
 
My local parish where I celebrate the EF is a Franciscan Parish. Recently the priest began using the old Franciscan Missal on the grounds that Universae Ecclesiae states (in article 32) that “the use of the liturgical books proper to the Religious Orders which were in effect in 1962 is permitted.” The priest stated that the Francisican Missal (although dated from 1955 I believe) was in use in 1962 and is therefore can now be used.
There is disagreement on that point, whether the article 32 applies to those who used their own form to the Latin Rite or if it applies to those orders that had their own rite: Dominicans, Carmelites and Carthusians. Some superiors are not allowing the use of the 1956 Seraphic Missal, just in case. What some friars are doing is using the Roman Missal of 1962 until there is a clearer answer to the question or there is a new missal, whichever comes first.

It’s a question of which obedience you belong to and what the local superior allows. Remember, there are over 100 branches of the Franciscan family, each with its own general superior, general council and local superiors. Ultimately, it’s up to the superior what he will or will not allow. Regardless of which branch of the Franciscan family you belong to, the rule is the same for everyone. The rule says that superiors have the last word. We’ll wait and see.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
When I first started attending mass, I became a little confused because one parishioner asked me if I knew the fasting rules and I said, Yes. No eating or drinking besides water and meds one hour before receiving communion. She said, “That’s for the Novus Ordo. We follow the three hour rule”.

I realize now she was confused because I have not heard anyone else say that. They may say, “Well it used to be 3 hours but Vatican II changed it to 1.” But they don’t say those who attend the EF should fast for 3 hours.
Well, its a good and pious to follow the three hour rule. It can even be a community rule if everyone agrees to it, but since its not the law of the Church then no one can be bound to it. Even in the Ukrainian Church, the synod of Bishops, at least for North America, implemented the one hour rule. But the traditional Byzantine way is to fast from the night before. So many still follow that but we’re not bound to it in any way by the Bishops. I follow it and try not to have anything, even water if I can. Its a personal rule. As long as its not made to be the rule for all.
 
There is disagreement on that point, whether the article 32 applies to those who used their own form to the Latin Rite or if it applies to those orders that had their own rite: Dominicans, Carmelites and Carthusians. Some superiors are not allowing the use of the 1956 Seraphic Missal, just in case. What some friars are doing is using the Roman Missal of 1962 until there is a clearer answer to the question or there is a new missal, whichever comes first.

It’s a question of which obedience you belong to and what the local superior allows. Remember, there are over 100 branches of the Franciscan family, each with its own general superior, general council and local superiors. Ultimately, it’s up to the superior what he will or will not allow. Regardless of which branch of the Franciscan family you belong to, the rule is the same for everyone. The rule says that superiors have the last word. We’ll wait and see.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂

Thank you for your informative reply. In fact, all of your posts are quite informative!

I do have one more question: let us assume the worst (which I doubt is the case) and Article 32 does not apply to the Franciscan Missal AND my parish priest is still using it in disobedience of his superior, would this invalidate the mass? Or to put it more succinctly, as a lay person, do I have anything to worry about?
 

Thank you for your informative reply. In fact, all of your posts are quite informative!

I do have one more question: let us assume the worst (which I doubt is the case) and Article 32 does not apply to the Franciscan Missal AND my parish priest is still using it in disobedience of his superior, would this invalidate the mass? Or to put it more succinctly, as a lay person, do I have anything to worry about?
No the Mass would not be invalidated. And it is extremely unlikely that the priest is using the missal contrary to the will of his superior.
 

Thank you for your informative reply. In fact, all of your posts are quite informative!

I do have one more question: let us assume the worst (which I doubt is the case) and Article 32 does not apply to the Franciscan Missal AND my parish priest is still using it in disobedience of his superior, would this invalidate the mass? Or to put it more succinctly, as a lay person, do I have anything to worry about?
First of all, if Father is using the missal, his superior knows. He’s not being disobedient.

Second, I said that there are questions. When there are questions, people in positions of authority do the best they can. No one is going to get into trouble for doing the best they can with the information that they have. The Church expects us to do just that, the best we can do.

Third, the mass is valid and licit. It’s valid, because Father is a validly ordained priest and it’s licit because he’s not doing it in hiding. It’s in a parish where the bishop and the superior know about it.

The most important part, this is a question that some people have. It is not an absolute truth. Therefore, Father, his superior and the local bishop are free to act as they understand the document.

My personal guess is that Father may be right. However, I’m not a liturgist nor a canon lawyer. Therefore, I don’t want to go down on record as saying that this means X and not Y. I can be totally wrong. Father probably knows something that you and I don’t know. I would trust his judgment, if I were a parishioner.

The worse than can happen is that someone may say, don’t use that missal, use this one. OK, you change over. What you’re describing is a friar who is acting in good faith. As I said, I’m not a liturgist or canon lawyer. He probably knows much more about this than I do. Go with him.

I just want to see all of these calendars worked out. :rolleyes:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m new to the forum and find it interesting , especially the Love of the Traditional Mass…I attend the Traditional Mass every Sunday and have since 1993…I don’t want to stir up a Hornets nest but ,I won’t ever attend another New Mass…All of them are so irreverant and people just wear anything to church…shorts , flip flops etc. The talking is incessant and if people aren’t talking , they are shaking hands, getting out of the pew and walking up and down the aisles glad handing. I was raised on the Traditional Mass all through grade and High school, so I know what reverence is.Do all N.O. Masses have this same problem ? Children don’t have the pleasure of a pius church because parents let the kids scream and do not instruct them to be quiet…Thank God when I left the church I soon discovered the Traditional Mass.If I lose the Traditional Mass, which could happen. I won’t set foot inside a N.O. Mass
 
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