Cain and Abel, A new look

[marymol]

The World’s First Murder; Part X; Can Desire be Divorced from Need This one discusses

Thank you again !

And it all goes so well , with our Good God , coming to be one with us …and the whole paschal mystery !

Even the problem of evil , as a distortion of the good ; would not the evil one have gotten its desire for man from the Good but ends up trying to use it against God …into the emptiness and chaos that it has chosen …

Hope we all benefit - from our faith in our Lord being raised a notch high …so that when we say we do trust in Him , we also acknowledege that , that trust itself is His ’ Desire’ …no one is unwanted …and even the evil one ‘desiring’ us … even that can help us to realise how precious we are …and what protection and help we have , when we choose to go for it -to Emmanuel , God with us !

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The World’s First Murder; Part XIII; Thank You Presents Rabbi Fohrman returns to considering the purpose of Cain’s sacrifice - was it gratitude or a bribe?

And so it might be with Cain. When the drive to join God in the act of creation is left undirected, it can slowly become an obsession, a powerful, gnawing, end in itself. When this happens, anything can be sacrificed on its altar – even, ironically, Cain’s relationship with God Himself. If I see God as a necessary instrument to make my creativity flourish, to let my crops grow, I may relentlessly try to “buy Him off.” As I reach brazenly for the keys to the Heavenly Cookie Jar, I’ll give God plenty of gifts – but gifts of a curiously “average” quality. I offer to my heavenly partner only that which is necessary to ensure his continued co-operation in our mutual endeavor.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The World’s First Murder; Part XIV; There’s no Place Like Home In this episode Rabbi Fohrman pulls together the sin of Adam and Eve and the sin of Cain.

As we saw earlier, when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they brought the creative will inside of them more powerfully than ever before. In so doing, they became “godly,” after a fashion, “and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
But they were only “half-godly.” They were passionate; driven, like God to create and foster new life – but, unlike God, their ability to properly steer this newly fired sense of creativity remained limited, and out of proportion with its power. . . .
Cain must ask himself: Will he be ruled by his passion to create – will he sacrifice his relationship with God on that altar? Or will he rule over that passion, and enhance his relationship with God instead?
In failing to meet this challenge, in failing to guide the inherently blind creative will he possessed so richly, Cain suffers an intensification of the consequences felt by his parents. He, like Adam, is alienated from his creators – but more permanently so. He intuits that he shall not merely hide from God momentarily, but shall spend his life in that state of hiding …and from your face I will hide]. Likewise, he suffers a more profound alienation from mother earth – a complete inability to find a home on her soil, and utter frustration in reaping the nourishment she can provide.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The World’s First Murder; Part XII; Cain’s Creative Passion Sorry, I missed part 12. In it Rabbi Fohrman discusses the Evil Inclination. In eating the fruit Adam and Eve gained the godlike desire to create.

The drive to create – or even better, the drive to create in partnership with God – is perhaps the deepest passion we human beings can know. This passion is so deep and sublime, it is quite nearly godly. As our friend the snake once said, if you eat from the Tree…"you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil…" (Genesis 3:4).

which must be balanced by control

The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to man: I have created the Evil Inclination, and I have created Torah, its “tavlin.” If you take the “tavlin,” you will be fine; if not, you will be endangered…
The word tavlin here is often translated as antidote, as if to suggest that the Evil Inclination is a sickness that must be cured, a cancer that must be gotten rid of. But that is not the literal meaning of the word tavlin. In Hebrew, tavlin actually means “spice” – the stuff you go into a supermarket and get to help you with dinner that night. The sages are in fact saying something remarkable. What is it that we put spice on? We put it on food, we put it on meat. If the Torah is spice, the Evil Inclination is food. Passion is the meat, the stuff of life itself. Torah is the spice that directs how it tastes. Without Torah, passion is bland – undirected, and ultimately dangerous. With Torah, passion is the dish of kings.

 

[nmercier1]

Calls to mind Genesis 6. I like Ven. Catherine emmerich take on things. Of course Disclaimer, Private revelation.

"One of Cains descendants was Tubalcain, (Genesis 4:22.) the originator of numerous arts, and the father of the giants. I have frequently seen that, when the angels fell, a certain number had a moment of repentance and did not in consequence fall as low as the others. Later on, these fallen spirits took up their abode on a high, desolate, and wholly inaccessible mountain whose site at the time of the Deluge became a sea, the Black Sea, I think. They were permitted to exercise their evil influence upon men in proportion as the latter strayed further from God. After the Deluge they disappeared from that region, and were confined to the air. They will not be cast into Hell before the last day.

I saw Cains descendants becoming more and more godless and sensual. They settled further and further up that mountain ridge where were the fallen spirits. Those spirits took possession of many of the women, ruled them completely, and taught them all Sorts of seductive arts. Their children were very large. They possessed a quickness, an aptitude for everything, and they gave themselves up entirely to the wicked spirits as their instruments. And so arose on this mountain and spread far around, a wicked race which by violence and seduction sought to entangle Seths posterity likewise in their own corrupt ways. Then God declared to Noah His intention to send the Deluge. During the building of the ark, Noah had to suffer terribly from those people."

 

[marymol]

Thank you for the sharing in the above posts.

While the jewish interpretation seems pretty much in line with our own time honored teachings of The Church,it is troubling to see the interpretation of the verse ’ let us make man in our image’ being seen as addressed to the earth ! Jewish faith, that was instrumental in revealing the truth of One God - yet is this not subtley into pantheism …God calling on earth as a coequal “us” ?

Yet, we have been told ’ The Spirit hovered over the waters ’ …The Spirit of The Father and The Son …laboring in creation …

The same Spirit that sanctified the holy union between Sts Ann and Joachim …

to bless us with new beginnings …in the Immaculate Conception of our Bl.Mother …to heal us of our passions , to set us free…to trust and love our Father !

Happy Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes !

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Thank you for the sharing in the above posts.

While the jewish interpretation seems pretty much in line with our own time honored teachings of The Church,it is troubling to see the interpretation of the verse ’ let us make man in our image’ being seen as addressed to the earth ! Jewish faith, that was instrumental in revealing the truth of One God - yet is this not subtley into pantheism …God calling on earth as a coequal “us” ?
. . !

As I read his quotation from Nachmanides, he is saying that God first created the earth, and all, and then called on the earth to cooperate with Him in creating man. The earth created man’s body by the evolutionary processes that God built into it Then God added an immortal spirit/soul. It follows the line of theistic evolution which is acceptable, though not mandatory or defined, Catholic teaching.

 

[marymol]

Yes, our Trinitarian God , guiding His creation !

All glory be to our Father, Son and Holy Spirit !

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The World’s First Murder; Part XV; The Death of Cain This one gets quite complicated. The Bible tells us nothing directly of Cain’s death. Rabbi Fohrman turns to a Jewish Midrash developed by Jewish sages throughout the ages for the answer.
Since all scripture has a purpose, we wonder why the Bible pursues the seven generations that descend from Cain and are wiped out in the flood. What have they to do with us?

The Midrash concludes that Cain’s seventh descendent, Lamech, killed him in a hunting accident. But it also proposes that the line of Cain lived on:

When we look back on Cain and his legacy, it is easy to disregard him; to feel that mankind is better off without having to deal with the wickedness he manifests. But evidently, Abel – or his replacement – is not enough of a foundation upon which to build a New World. Cain, for all the danger he brings to the table, is a necessary partner. Somehow, mankind needs the energies of both Cain and Abel – ground, coupled with nothingness; possession, bound together with breath – to move on, to build itself in perpetuity. And so it is that – in the personhood of Noah and Naama – under the life-saving roof of an ark, a fragmented humanity finally gains a semblance of unity, just as the storm-clouds of apocalypse gather on the horizon.

According to the Midrash, Naama, the wife of Noah is the daughter of Lamech.
Do read this one. It is loaded with ideas. For instance note that the seven is the number of completeness, so the tale is completed in the seventh generation.

 

[marymol]

Yes, interesting commentary again .

While the sevenfold vengeance is not quite spelled out , could it mean that all the seven intervening generations now begin to blame and hate Lamech , the killer …and that it gets worse as time went on and contibute to the wickedness that brought on the flood …

The assumption that Cain’s traits were a necessity seem not quite in line with Christian ideals that cherish detachment from the world and possessions.

Again, it all helps too , to highlight the infinite blessings and God’s Love through the Incarnation and the New Covenant .

We do have New beginnings , with the New Eve -a sinless grace filled Mother .

There is the New Ark - The Church and soon we would be celebrating The Feast of Chair of St.Peter - grateful for all the bishops and priests whose line of authority starts from that Chair and our Lord whose blessing and promise to St.Peter makes it possible.

Grateful too , that means of true brotherly reconciliation has been given to us - the faithful at the Holy Liturgies , asking forgiveness of God and of each other ’ I confess to almighy God and to you my brothers and sisters…’ and able to offer up the Infinite Merits of The Passion , in place of all the pains and hurts …that the flood of Mercy is what would fill hearts …

And hoping too that the blindness that still afflict many , in not being able to trust in a God who is such Love , will be lifted …

Peace !

 

[marymol]

Many of the readers probably have noted the hiddenness of the New Testament in the old, in the above insights , kindly brought to us by JoeKelly …

Cain , who supposedly has a horn …and the symbolism of both good and bad that it evokes …may be also the alienantion he probably felt from all the seven generations that followed …and all this from his efforts to have it all for himself …

Lamech , killing his own son too… …accidently …

’ Father, forgive them , for they know not what they do …’ from a Son, that wanted to do the Father’s Will as His own will ,and laid down His life , in total freedom, for in oneness with The Father, He foresaw all the good to come out of it … to remove curses and generational bondages …

To set straight all the complex Father problems that haunt human hearts , to this day …

www.guidetopsychology.com and www.chastitysf.com - couple of good sites that can give more good info in these areas -such as the influence of the vast unconscious in the many choices we make… …may be even like the seven fold power …and there too, how the power of the Sacraments and prayers such as the Rosary can reach in and heal …in ways we may not know how …

Glory and Praise be , to our Father, Son and Holy Spirit !

 

[Johnjspear]

I would like to take this opportunity to share with you what I believe is the correct understanding of Genesis. Does it necessarily follow that the Hebrews understood Moses’ writings in the first place? In light of the times we live in science has seriously damaged the credibility of a literal interpretation of Genesis to the point that the Jews are reconsidering the literal interpretation. I think that the Hebrews read into the scriptures as they saw fit in their own perspectives. I think the Cain and Abel story is allegorical and spiritual refering to the Hebrews who refused to accept Jesus’ Ressurection (The Generarion of Cain and the Law). And those very same Hebrews wanting and killing those Hebrews who accepted the Ressurection (The Generarion of Abel and Grace). This is too complicated to explain here and to see more of what I mean go to www.redemptiondynamics.com. This book will be available in about two weeks online in ebook format. Jesus was in fact the SON OF GOD and this work proves this. Cain went vagabond and so did the Jews who refused to accept Him as the Son of God. This Book proves that Genesis was a prophetic book not a historical book. The account of the Passion is right there for you to see. Like 'Adam was put into a deep sleep and the rib was the Doctrine of the Ressurection which created Eve the Church. Check it out. You’ll be stupified and Pope Benedict XVI is going to recieve a copy of this Book for it was dedicated to Peter the Disciple and Apostle.

 

[Valke2]

Today I was reading Clement I First Epistle to the Corinthians and I came upon something that truly puzzled, but at the same time enlighted me I think.

Reference to Gen. 4:5 and thereafter. Now my Jerusalem Bible, says the following:

“…Why are you angry and downcast? If you are doing right, surely you ought to hold your head high! But if you are not doing right, sin is crouching…”

The translation of Clement wherein he discusses the same passage says as follows:

And Cain was deeply grieved, and his countenance fell. And God said to Cain, Why art thou grieved, and why is try countenance fallen? If thou offerest rightly, but dost not divide rightly, hast thou not sinned? Be at peace: thine offering returns to thyself, and thou shalt again possess it.

Now this makes sense to me. I see what Cain did was cheat on his tithe? I have never understood before what Cain did wrong. This makes sense as I said. Sorry if everyone knows this but me, but I sure remember having this discussion and nobody having a good answer.

Now what translation was Clement using? Or was he only paraphrasing. I’ve not found an answer to either. All I know so far is that Clement’s originals are in Greek. and he wrote this around 96 CE. during the Domitian persecutions.

Your thoughts?

How could Cain have cheated on a tithe which was not yet in existence? There was no law regarding tithe.

 

[Valke2]

I would like to take this opportunity to share with you what I believe is the correct understanding of Genesis. Does it necessarily follow that the Hebrews understood Moses’ writings in the first place? In light of the times we live in science has seriously damaged the credibility of a literal interpretation of Genesis to the point that the Jews are reconsidering the literal interpretation. I think that the Hebrews read into the scriptures as they saw fit in their own perspectives. I think the Cain and Abel story is allegorical and spiritual refering to the Hebrews who refused to accept Jesus’ Ressurection (The Generarion of Cain and the Law). And those very same Hebrews wanting and killing those Hebrews who accepted the Ressurection (The Generarion of Abel and Grace).

Talk about reading into the scriptures as one sees fit!

The original purpose of the Cain and Able story may have been to explain to why the tribe of Kanites were so fierce. God tells Cain that anyone who harms him will have harm returned 7 fold. They typical law at the time (or tradition) was that if one of your tribe was killed, you killed one of theirs. The Kanites apparently killed more than one for one and the story of Cain may very likely have been written to explain why they did this.

 

[Johnjspear]

read the book and you’ll understand. this is about future not a long time ago. evolution is on secure footing and needs to be weighed into the situation. I don’t read into something. The church needs to accept revelation and not closemindedness. i’m orthodox and very well educated.

 

[Valke2]

who questioned your education? But to say the story of Cain and Abel refers to Jews who rejected Jesus is certainly reading a lot into the story that isn’t there.

 

[Benadam]

There is no doubt that the acts of the first generation of man would echo throughout history. The Genesis story does reveal what will be but also what is and at the most sublime level since it’s source is the genesis events of human history.

The purpose of the story can’t be framed in either or thinking because it is all encompassing.

The closer to the beginning the nearer to the end the deeper is the now revealed when it comes to this sort of thing.

 

[Benadam]

Many of the readers probably have noted the hiddenness of the New Testament in the old, in the above insights , kindly brought to us by JoeKelly …

Cain , who supposedly has a horn …and the symbolism of both good and bad that it evokes …may be also the alienantion he probably felt from all the seven generations that followed …and all this from his efforts to have it all for himself …

Lamech , killing his own son too… …accidently …

’ Father, forgive them , for they know not what they do …’ from a Son, that wanted to do the Father’s Will as His own will ,and laid down His life , in total freedom, for in oneness with The Father, He foresaw all the good to come out of it … to remove curses and generational bondages …

To set straight all the complex Father problems that haunt human hearts , to this day …

www.guidetopsychology.com and www.chastitysf.com - couple of good sites that can give more good info in these areas -such as the influence of the vast unconscious in the many choices we make… …may be even like the seven fold power …and there too, how the power of the Sacraments and prayers such as the Rosary can reach in and heal …in ways we may not know how …

Glory and Praise be , to our Father, Son and Holy Spirit !

Dear sister in Christ, thank you for your inspirational thoughts and thank you for the websites especially the one on chastity.

Pax Christi