Call no man "father" from an ex-priest

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rien

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Again I am unable to find an argument, other than indirect, that a priest should or can be called father.

This from a young former priest. Recently ordained from an orthodox sort of traditionalist seminary who was in his first 4 years of priesthood led out of the church by reading Scripture. So he says. He is now studying to become an AOG minister.

But he put it plainly:

Applying “father” to men as a formalistic or religious title was forbidden by Jesus. (Mt 23:9) Because of Paul’s bringing the good news to certain Christians and nourishing them spiritually he was like a father to them, but in no scripture is “father” applied to him as a religious title. (1Co 4:14, 15) Paul likened himself to both a father and a mother in his relation to the Thessalonian Christians. (1Th 2:7, 11) Whereas reference is made at Luke 16:24, 30 to “father Abraham,” this is basically in the sense of fleshly ancestry.
 
rien said:
Again I am unable to find an argument, other than indirect, that a priest should or can be called father.

This from a young former priest. Recently ordained from an orthodox sort of traditionalist seminary who was in his first 4 years of priesthood led out of the church by reading Scripture. So he says. He is now studying to become an AOG minister.

But he put it plainly:

Applying “father” to men as a formalistic or religious title was forbidden by Jesus. (Mt 23:9) Because of Paul’s bringing the good news to certain Christians and nourishing them spiritually he was like a father to them, but in no scripture is “father” applied to him as a religious title. (1Co 4:14, 15) Paul likened himself to both a father and a mother in his relation to the Thessalonian Christians. (1Th 2:7, 11) Whereas reference is made at Luke 16:24, 30 to “father Abraham,” this is basically in the sense of fleshly ancestry.
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Is this someone you know, or is this some claim in an article you read.

Most priests would have been well familiar with this Scripture long before they became priests, or did he stumble across it one day during the Gospel and go, “Oh, no”?

Is your good friend aware that every religion called the pastors “Father” until around the beginning of the 20th century?
 
When read in context, it’s plain that Jesus is saying titles are to be earned. He means call no man a father who doesn’t act like one. You have to read most of chapter 23 to understand the full message Jesus was teaching.
 
NotWorthy said:
Is this someone you know, or is this some claim in an article you read.

Most priests would have been well familiar with this Scripture long before they became priests, or did he stumble across it one day during the Gospel and go, “Oh, no”?

Is your good friend aware that every religion called the pastors “Father” until around the beginning of the 20th century?
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Someone I know from work. one of her family memebers is among those who followed the priest out of the church.
 
BeeSweet said:
When read in context, it’s plain that Jesus is saying titles are to be earned. He means call no man a father who doesn’t act like one. You have to read most of chapter 23 to understand the full message Jesus was teaching.
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I went back and re-read but i don’t any sense that Jesus is saying this in reference to those who have not earned the title. The former priests exegis of this Scripture anyways seems correct to me.
 
rien said:
I went back and re-read but i don’t any sense that Jesus is saying this in reference to those who have not earned the title. The former priests exegis of this Scripture anyways seems correct to me.
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23:3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.

23:6-7 They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’

**It’s at this point that Jesus admonishes the apostles not to take on titles and tells them:
**
23:12 The greatest among you must be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Of the Pharisees and scribes he says:

23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others.

23:25-26 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.

23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.

The entire chapter is an admonishment against hypocracy, but everyone likes to zoom in on one single verse in this chapter and then beat up Catholics for calling our priests “Father” (who are our spiritual fathers in the place of Jesus Christ Who is One with the Father).
 
This is actually an article from a protestant perspective (and it’s ultimate point is how to address female clergy), but it provides a great history of the whole “call no man father” canard as well as the history of father’s use as a religious title.

religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1916

Protestants actually used the term more than Catholics until the Irish came to America–and then that verse first began to be interpreted literally due to anti-Catholic xenophobia. Even to this day it is mostly English speaking places that call their priests “Father”–in other places it is mister (but in the other language, like “don” in spanish for example).
 
In Spanish we call it padre=father in English.
So no change.

I’m a bit sceptical about that story. About priest that suddently read the Bible, as they have never read it before in seminary that suddently realize that they got all wrong and go fundie.

They almost never name names, is always some fundangelical denomination. Most catholic clergy who defects do to mainline denominations, Episcopalian, Lutheran or Eastern Orthodox. They rarely go fundie. To someone used to read the Bible accoding to the Early Church Fathers and modern historical criticism going fundangelical is like shutting down their brains.

So unless they put names on it I doubt the story. Also I love heard the story of the defector. I guess he probably was struggling with celibacy and wanted a way out (if the story is real).

That story and the other of the bogus nun are run around some fundy webs to counter the phenomenon of former well educated fundagelical clergy going Apostolic (EOC; CC; TAC). A phenomena that is starting to worry some.

So unless you run a real name and story I fill if as urban legend.
I love whem people lies for Jesus.
 
rien said:
Again I am unable to find an argument, other than indirect, that a priest should or can be called father.

This from a young former priest. Recently ordained from an orthodox sort of traditionalist seminary who was in his first 4 years of priesthood led out of the church by reading Scripture. So he says. He is now studying to become an AOG minister.

But he put it plainly:

Applying “father” to men as a formalistic or religious title was forbidden by Jesus. (Mt 23:9) Because of Paul’s bringing the good news to certain Christians and nourishing them spiritually he was like a father to them, but in no scripture is “father” applied to him as a religious title. (1Co 4:14, 15) Paul likened himself to both a father and a mother in his relation to the Thessalonian Christians. (1Th 2:7, 11) Whereas reference is made at Luke 16:24, 30 to “father Abraham,” this is basically in the sense of fleshly ancestry.
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No I don’t think so. Abraham is used as a type by Paul of both the father of those by race, and by faith (Gentiles).

You can clearly see in the book of Acts when Stephen and Paul make their defenses that they refer to the Sanhedrin as “brothers and fathers”.

Priests share in the spiritual fatherhood of Jesus, begetting spiritual children. I am sorry tht this young man is so lost, and I hope he finds his way home.
 
rien said:
Again I am unable to find an argument, other than indirect, that a priest should or can be called father.

This from a young former priest. Recently ordained from an orthodox sort of traditionalist seminary who was in his first 4 years of priesthood led out of the church by reading Scripture. So he says. He is now studying to become an AOG minister.

But he put it plainly:

Applying “father” to men as a formalistic or religious title was forbidden by Jesus. (Mt 23:9) Because of Paul’s bringing the good news to certain Christians and nourishing them spiritually he was like a father to them, but in no scripture is “father” applied to him as a religious title. (1Co 4:14, 15) Paul likened himself to both a father and a mother in his relation to the Thessalonian Christians. (1Th 2:7, 11) Whereas reference is made at Luke 16:24, 30 to “father Abraham,” this is basically in the sense of fleshly ancestry.
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I have to wonder about a priest that doesn’t know the answer to this easy and common arguement.

I would ask my friend if they ever used the term teacher. Jesus forbade that in the same chapter when he told no man to call another Rabbi. What about when he tells us to call no man Master, the latin term for Master evolved into our word for Dr. So, please be consistent and don’t call your dr. Dr. Smith or Dr. Jones.

It is very easy to read the whole chapter from Matthew and realize that Jesus was discussing the fact that some people put to much emphasis on their titles to the point of forgetting humility.

Someone else can supply the exact verse but Paul refers to himself as Timothy’s spiritual father later in the New Testament. Was Paul disobeying Christ?

By the way, the word Jesus used for Father could be translated as Dad, Pop etc. So, if a person is going to refuse to Jesus’ words as hyperbole then they need to be consistent and not allow their children to call their male biological units, Daddy.
 
inthecloud said:
In Spanish we call it padre=father in English.
So no change.

I’m a bit sceptical about that story. About priest that suddently read the Bible, as they have never read it before in seminary that suddently realize that they got all wrong and go fundie.

They almost never name names, is always some fundangelical denomination. Most catholic clergy who defects do to mainline denominations, Episcopalian, Lutheran or Eastern Orthodox. They rarely go fundie. To someone used to read the Bible accoding to the Early Church Fathers and modern historical criticism going fundangelical is like shutting down their brains.

So unless they put names on it I doubt the story. Also I love heard the story of the defector. I guess he probably was struggling with celibacy and wanted a way out (if the story is real).

That story and the other of the bogus nun are run around some fundy webs to counter the phenomenon of former well educated fundagelical clergy going Apostolic (EOC; CC; TAC). A phenomena that is starting to worry some.

So unless you run a real name and story I fill if as urban legend.
I love whem people lies for Jesus.
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This was my thoughts exactly. This is such an easy claim to counter that I find it hard to believe that a priest would loose his faith over this and abandon the Catholic church.

Please rien, if you can supply a name that might be helpful to us.
 
This is an old one. By chance I found this discussed yesterday in the book, “The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith” pp. 119-120), a book which came out in 2005, which comments:
Code: 
"In the Book of Acts, the priests of the early Church were called 'father.'
John also calls the priests of the Church 'father."
Paul calls himself a father when he writes, 'I became your father in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor 4:15). Paul also says he has become the father of Onesimus (see Philem 10)
Paul describes Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a father (Phil 2:22). Paul also compares the ministerial priesthood’s ministry to God’s people like a father with His children (1 Thess 2:11)…
There are many examples in Scripture where the sacred writers use the word ‘father’ to address spsiritual leaders. The Holy Spirit, the angels, the Virgin Mary, and others also call spiritual leaders 'father."
The Holy Spirit says, ‘your fathers put me to the test’ (Heb 3:9).
The angel Gabriel says that Jesus will be given the throne of His ‘father’ David (Lk 1:32).
Mary says that God spoke to ‘our fathers’ (Luke 1:55).
Stephen refers to our ‘fathers’ in the faith.
Ananias refers to the God of our ‘fathers’ (Acts 22:14).
Zechariah refers to the oath God swore to our ‘fatherr’ Abraham (Lk 1:73).
The Samaritan woman asks Jesus if He is greater than our ‘father’ Jacob (Jn 4:12).
Call no man father? Catholics should ask non-Catholic Christians why they don't call their pastors 'Father.'"
 
Matt 23:10 says: “10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” KJV

Yet, I don’t see the line-up of Protestant Pastors willing to give up or burn those “Masters of Divinity” degrees, do you? In fact, they seem to parade them as a sign of their intelligence. I guess they just don’t know how to interpret the bible.

MBS1
 
St. Matthew 23:9And call no one on earth your Father;for one is your Father in heaven.we are not sons and daughter of the prince of this world but we sons and daughter of the Father who is in heaven. when we live in sin the prince of darkness is our father,when we live in the light of Christ God is our father.what is our intent when we call the priest father are we saying he is our father,no he is our guide and when we stray,just as any father would do with his children, he corrects us.
 
fbl9 said:
St. Matthew 23:9And call no one on earth your Father;for one is your Father in heaven.we are not sons and daughter of the prince of this world but we sons and daughter of the Father who is in heaven. when we live in sin the prince of darkness is our father,when we live in the light of Christ God is our father.what is our intent when we call the priest father are we saying he is our father,no he is our guide and when we stray,just as any father would do with his children, he corrects us.
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We call him “Father” because he is the head of the parish family, just as the biological father is the head of the domestic family. 🙂

Jesus was not forbidding anyone to call someone “Father”, or to call someone “Teacher” or “Doctor” - rather, He was forbidding those who receive those titles from insisting upon being called by those titles, and to refrain from mistaking themselves for God - He was conveying to them the idea, Remember, Father, that you are a son. Remember, Teacher, that you are a student. Remember, Doctor, that you are a patient. Don’t get caught up in your titles; remember that God the Father alone is Father, without also being a Son, God the Father alone is a Teacher who is not also a student, and God the Father alone is a Doctor, without also being a patient.
 
Then why are men called fathers so often in the Bible? Perhaps your quote then means something else than what Protestants usually thinks it means, or otherwise the Bible, quoting the words of Jesus Himself, Saint Paul, Saint Luke and the Holy Spirit along with others, does what Jesus forbids in this passage. Which naturally I doubt. (see the quotes I provided a few posts before).
fbl9 said:
St. Matthew 23:9And call no one on earth your Father;for one is your Father in heaven.we are not sons and daughter of the prince of this world but we sons and daughter of the Father who is in heaven. when we live in sin the prince of darkness is our father,when we live in the light of Christ God is our father.what is our intent when we call the priest father are we saying he is our father,no he is our guide and when we stray,just as any father would do with his children, he corrects us.
Click to expand...
 
rien said:
Again I am unable to find an argument, other than indirect, that a priest should or can be called father.

There are plenty of examples that have been posted so far.

This from a young former priest. Recently ordained from an orthodox sort of traditionalist seminary who was in his first 4 years of priesthood led out of the church by reading Scripture. So he says. He is now studying to become an AOG minister.
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If you’ll forgive my doubt and cynicism I have trouble believing that an ordained priest is now having this “epiphany” 4 years after he was ordained, which was preceded by four years of seminary. So even if we went on the premise that he never read the bible prior to entry into a seminary, he still didn’t come to his conclusion until eight years later? On one of the most fundamental catholic questions?

Also, AOG members have the reputation of “almost of God”. I have a hard time swallowing the fact that an ordained priest chooses AOG as a fallback fundamentalism.

I can be cynical and this is just my opinion, so it was worth every penny you paid.
 
My advice is do not listen to him. Former Catholics are the most dangerous when it comes to ones faith as they profess to knowing something of the faith, and they will blaspheme it all day long.

Avoid the heretic.
 
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