Call to (Islamic) prayer?

[jakasaki]

What about Christ?
I was in the process of selling a house some years ago. During an open house a Muslim family came to look at it. They literally ran out two minutes later when they saw a cross hanging on the wall.

I had the same experience, although I wasn’t selling my house.

I was selling my mom’s house and I left it as she did.

The last supper icon above the kitchen.

A cross needle work above all of the bedrooms

A cross in the main entrance to the house.

And they too ran out withing 2 minutes of the real estate agent showing the property.

It also blew them away when they say a small icon of Saint Nicholas in my dad’s shed.

 

[MartinJordan]

Muslims don’t care for Saint Paul. They believe he taught a false message.

I don’t know of any authentic Islamic teacher (you know the non extremist type) who ever speak of St. Paul at all! They’re only interested in what the Quran and accompanying Hadiths show.

I would guess that if there is any talk of St. Paul it would be by banned Islamic preachers.

MJ

 

[Ontheway]

Muslims love Jesus,

Their idea of Jesus has nothing to do with Jesus the Christ. Please try to understand that their Jesus is not the same as ours.

If you would like to check this theory, talk to a Muslim and ask if they love Jesus Christ. Your Jesus Christ. Not the one who according to their Book will come at the end of time to “smash the cross”.

 

[Ontheway]

I don’t know of any authentic Islamic teacher (you know the non extremist type) who ever speak of St. Paul at all! They’re only interested in what the Quran and accompanying Hadiths show.

It and there is any talk of St. Paul it would be by banned Islamic preachers.

MJ

Thank you.

 

[Ontheway]

Please clarify:

Is your topic on “call to Islamic prayer” or the body of your text -

Or both

If you carry the arguments to their logical conclusion, you may find yourself there. My point is that in our Christian and cheritable efforts to understand the other side, we lose sight of who we are and what be believe. There are statements here and elswhere on this forum claiming that we essentially believe in the same Jesus, and we both love Mary, etc. so, we have more in common than not.

These sentiments are admirable, but I will never find a Muslim who would agree with them.
Is this just wishful thinking on the part of the “I’m ok, your’e ok” generation?

 

[LilyM]

Very nice sentiments, and as Catholics, we practice charity to all.
But, why do you need to learn devotion to prayer and fasting from Muslims? What happened to our Catholic devotion to prayer? Why do I need an Abdulla or a Mohamad to remind me to pray or fast?

Because, as awful as it sounds, they do it better.

Regular prayer (five times a day) and fasting (meaning nothing at all between sunrise and sunset for the entire month of Ramadan) are staples of Islam. What they call ‘pillars’. No person, layman or cleric, who does not do them (unless exempted by things like illness) can call themselves a practicing Muslim, if what I have been told is correct.

Very few lay Catholics know that there is such a thing as Liturgy of the Hours - or pray it. Certainly it is not a requirement for everyone wishing to call themselves a devout Catholic. And most do no fasting or abstaining beyond the required handful of days of Lent, and other Fridays for some few places. A frightening number of Catholics don’t know that even this little is expected of them.

Why? A combination of factors - poor catechesis, lack of respect for authority, lack of knowledge of the traditions and requirements of our faith.

So yes, some of us do need our Muslim neighbours to remind us of these things, because most of our Christian brothers sure as heck won’t.

 

[Trebor135]

There are many Catholic apologists out there pointing out Islamic Extremeism. In fact, our last Pope talked about the violence in the Islamic faith.

My original post was a reaction to the lenghty discussions about Roberts Spencer and his contributions on the topic of Islam. I don’t know the man, but it seems that many Catholics here are not fond of his rather direct and unambiguous statements about Islam and its followers. I did hear his debate on the subject with Peter Kreeft, who wrote a rather favorable book about Islam soem years before. Spencer is a student of Kreeft. Even though the debate began with the two men expressing what appeared to be opposite views of Islam, at the end they seemed to agree. I highly recommend it (youtube) to anyone interested in the subject.

This really bothers me. Why are Catholics discussing Islamic so-called radicalism and the true nature of Islam among themselves, rather than debate with Muslim apologists about the fundamental issues, such as Muhammad’s identity as a self-proclaimed prophet and the credibility of the Qur’an as a text of divine origin?

Quoting the psalm serves a dual purpose here. First, it illustrates what should be our attitude about our own faith. Secondly, this is exactly the attitude of every Muslim I know about their faith. (and I know many) They will never touch the Bible and everthing they need to know about us comes from the Koran and their imam.

Ecumenism - as far as I can see, we are conducting a monolgue with a non-receptive audience.

Which is why we have to take a leaf out of Father Zakaria’s book and give our Muslim interlocutors a “short, sharp shock” regarding their religion. Pose tough questions and don’t let them change the subject.

 

[Trebor135]

I had the same experience, although I wasn’t selling my house.

Some, though I believe not all, Muslims follow the heresy of iconoclasm.

 

[Trebor135]

I don’t know of any authentic Islamic teacher (you know the non extremist type) who ever speak of St. Paul at all! They’re only interested in what the Quran and accompanying Hadiths show.

I would guess that if there is any talk of St. Paul it would be by banned Islamic preachers.

Actually, Muslims will attack St. Paul for corrupting the supposedly original Islam-like faith brought by Jesus when they debate Christians.

 

[Cojuanco]

Muslims don’t care for Saint Paul. They believe he taught a false message.

No, I meant that we might get an in as to with the beliefs we hold in common, and I used the analogy of Saint Paul using the Unknown God as an in with the pagan Athenians.

 

[Forkfoot]

Why are there so many Catholics who seem to have become apologists for Islam?

I’ve never met any, but I have encountered some who go around correcting the constant deluge of misunderstandings, misrepresentations, and outright lies their fellow Catholics sometimes put forth about the Islamic faith. I think this is a good thing.

If this is being done to foster understanding and dialogue, do we require our Muslim brothers to study the Bible, to read St. Francis, St. Augustine, Thomas a Kempis?

I can’t “require” anyone to do anything but myself.

 

[aspirant]

Do any of you know of any Muslim who has actually read and studied the New Testament?

Yes, in fact, I have. Some of them misunderstood it horribly, but I have met a number of Muslims who have read the New Testament.

I don’t know {Robert Spencer}, but it seems that many Catholics here are not fond of his rather direct and unambiguous statements about Islam and its followers.

If you check into the thread in which I’ve recently criticized Spencer, you will find that he has on at least one occasion communicated information which is factually incorrect and may do grave injustice to other people throughout the world. He is not above criticism.

Ecumenism

Ecumenism is not a word appropriately applied to Catholic interreligious dialogue and cooperation with Muslims. Ecumenism refers to dialogue and cooperation among Christians and, to some extent, with Jewish people.

We do not require {Muslims} to read the New Testament because we require nothing of them; we place burdens on ourselves because we are Catholic, and we believe that God will help us bear the burden of teaching others.

Agreed.

 

[Ontheway]

Where I am headed with this is to suggest that we should seek sources of spirituality in our own deep Catholic traditions.

I agree that Muslim devotion to prayer is admirable. I have lived in a predominantly Islamic country and observed it first hand. I also heard the imams refer to us as dogs and calling their faithful to fight them wherever we can be found.

 

[LilyM]

Where I am headed with this is to suggest that we should seek sources of spirituality in our own deep Catholic traditions.

I agree that Muslim devotion to prayer is admirable. I have lived in a predominantly Islamic country and observed it first hand. I also heard the imams refer to us as dogs and calling their faithful to fight them wherever we can be found.

That - seeking Catholic sources of spirituality - is exactly - but precisely - what I and these other so-called apologists are suggesting too. Knowledge of the Islamic practice is often the incentive Catholics need to do exactly that.

Joe pewsitter sees his Muslim neighbour praying five times a day, mentions it admiringly to his priest or more knowledgeable Catholic neighbour, who then introduces Joe to LOTH. That sort of thing.

You can’t seriously imagine that I would suggest Catholics pray the five daily Islamic prayers or observe Ramadan? Or that any Catholic would suggest such a thing?

 

[aspirant]

we should seek sources of spirituality in our own deep Catholic traditions.

Of course! As I understood it, LilyM was not suggesting that we look elsewhere for doctrinal content or particular devotions, but for a wake-up call regarding our sloth.

 

[Trebor135]

I’ve never met any, but I have encountered some who go around correcting the constant deluge of misunderstandings, misrepresentations, and outright lies their fellow Catholics sometimes put forth about the Islamic faith. I think this is a good thing.

We don’t like it when Protestants do those things to us (Orthodox and Catholics), so we should all be careful to avoid ascribing to Muslims what they don’t actually believe.

The saying “know your enemy” applies here. We can’t help in God’s work of saving Muslims if we attack straw men.

 

[Trebor135]

Yes, in fact, I have. Some of them misunderstood it horribly, but I have met a number of Muslims who have read the New Testament.

Haha, not surprising. Muslims like to view the Bible through the same lens as they view the Qur’an. So, they seek out or come upon passages that seem to go against the trinity or divinity of Christ, and jump to the conclusion that Christianity is refuted.

If you check into the thread in which I’ve recently criticized Spencer, you will find that he has on at least one occasion communicated information which is factually incorrect and may do grave injustice to other people throughout the world. He is not above criticism.

Please provide a link. (I’m not a raving Spencer fan or something… I’d like to know more is all.)

 

[aspirant]

We don’t like it when Protestants do those things to us (Orthodox and Catholics), so we should all be careful to avoid ascribing to Muslims what they don’t actually believe… We can’t help in God’s work of saving Muslims if we attack straw men.

Agreed.

Please provide a link. (I’m not a raving Spencer fan or something… I’d like to know more is all.)

This is the thread.

 

[Ontheway]

Because, as awful as it sounds, they do it better.

Regular prayer (five times a day) and fasting (meaning nothing at all between sunrise and sunset for the entire month of Ramadan) are staples of Islam. What they call ‘pillars’. No person, layman or cleric, who does not do them (unless exempted by things like illness) can call themselves a practicing Muslim, if what I have been told is correct.

Very few lay Catholics know that there is such a thing as Liturgy of the Hours - or pray it. Certainly it is not a requirement for everyone wishing to call themselves a devout Catholic. And most do no fasting or abstaining beyond the required handful of days of Lent, and other Fridays for some few places. A frightening number of Catholics don’t know that even this little is expected of them.

Why? A combination of factors - poor catechesis, lack of respect for authority, lack of knowledge of the traditions and requirements of our faith.

So yes, some of us do need our Muslim neighbours to remind us of these things, because most of our Christian brothers sure as heck won’t.

Lily,
I essentially agree with you on this point, and can see how some would benefit from this. However, I am old enough to recall the 60’s and the great fascination of my fellow Catholics with Buddhism and later with new age. We all know the results of that wave of “enlightenment” that swept though the church.

Catholics seem to be seeking something, but only if it is outside the church. I don’t believe that it is to be found there. That’s all.

 

[MartinJordan]

Actually, Muslims will attack St. Paul for corrupting the supposedly original Islam-like faith brought by Jesus when they debate Christians.

Pls tell me whether these Muslims are Islamic teachers authorized by their respective Muftis.

I doubt any of the authentic teachers ever talk about reading the Bible,

Plus isn’t the Qur’an meant to be read poetically (almost like a tune; for lack a better word:blush wherein the English translation loses the point of it all?

MJ