Calling All Aetheists

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I have never tried to. I dont own one, but I have borrowed one from someone who lives nearby. He’s moving soon. I guess I better get one myself if I want to read it.

Except none of it makes sense to me without someone helping me understand it.

That’s why I am glad you are here to answer stuff for us Valke2.

Now, back to our Atheistic programming…

I say lets hope they can be the best Atheists they can be!🙂
thanks. Many Chumash (Torah in book form) have a log of commentary that comes with them. I have one by the Jewish Publication Society where each page is about 10% scripture and 90% commentary.
 
Yes, I am. Israel does not really burn new testaments.
Maybe not now in our modern era of global news networks.

But as recently as 1980 hundreds of copies of the Christian Scriptures were publically and ceremonially burned in Jerusalem under the direction of Yad Le’akhim, a Jewish religious organization subsidized by the Israeli Ministry of Religions.

You might want to check out Israel Shahak’s book : Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years.

As you can tell by the reviews given, his book is not for everyone. But as an Orthodox Jew who survived the holocaust and sees corruption deep within Israel’s government, I don’t think Shahak’s words should be lightly dismissed as anti-semitic either.

Just saying.
 
Maybe not now in our modern era of global news networks.

But as recently as 1980 hundreds of copies of the Christian Scriptures were publically and ceremonially burned in Jerusalem under the direction of Yad Le’akhim, a Jewish religious organization subsidized by the Israeli Ministry of Religions.

You might want to check out Israel Shahak’s book : Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years.

As you can tell by the reviews given, his book is not for everyone. But as an Orthodox Jew who survived the holocaust and sees corruption deep within Israel’s government, I don’t think Shahak’s words should be lightly dismissed as anti-semitic either.

Just saying.
Is this author still alive? Just wondering…
 
Is this author still alive? Just wondering…
Israel Shahak was brought up in the Warsaw Ghetto and was a survivor of Bergen-Belsen. He arrived in Palestine in 1945 and lived there until his passing in 2001.

Prior to his passing, he co-authored another book which was later published in 2004, so he seems to have held these same views til the day he died.
 
In fact Valke 2- I have no way of knowing if in fact it is an offical Torah.

It was in english and it had commentary on the bottom, several sections with illustrations and a dictionary in back much like a typical run of the mill bible.

Where can I get one anyway? Amazon?
Yes. Probably also on EBAY. You might want to try the Artscroll Chumash or the JPS Big Blue Book. I’ll post some links later. BTW, must Chumash do not have illustrations. But you never know.
 
Maybe not now in our modern era of global news networks.

But as recently as 1980 hundreds of copies of the Christian Scriptures were publically and ceremonially burned in Jerusalem under the direction of Yad Le’akhim, a Jewish religious organization subsidized by the Israeli Ministry of Religions.

You might want to check out Israel Shahak’s book : Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years.

As you can tell by the reviews given, his book is not for everyone. But as an Orthodox Jew who survived the holocaust and sees corruption deep within Israel’s government, I don’t think Shahak’s words should be lightly dismissed as anti-semitic either.

Just saying.
I’ll look into Yad Le’akhim and Shahak. SO far, I’ve only found a reference from David Duke’s website. Apparently Shahak is a jew he respects, according to him. sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=587
 
Shahak is very far to the left. He’s like CHomsky left. I have no problem discussing and criticizing aspects of Israel. But the government does not condone book burning. I do agree that everyone should criticize their own past before criticizing others, as he states in one of his books.

As I’m sure you are aware, there is controversy over the validitiy of some of his statements (I’m sure we are reading from the same wikipedia article, i.e., his allegations that a jew refused to allow someone to use a cell phone to call an ambulance on shabbat). Shahak finds his followers in pro palestinian circles and the little I’ve read about his accusations seem to be contrary to halacha, so I have my doubts. His books are often found on holocaust denier websites.

Why are we discussing him again?
 
Do you have a link to the news story about Israel burning Bibles? I can find anything on it, other than my earlier post.
 
Maybe not now in our modern era of global news networks.
.
I take issue with your allegation that the only reason Israel doesn’t promote bible burning is because of global news networks. That’s just pure speculation and not based on anything.
 
Do you have a link to the news story about Israel burning Bibles? I can find anything on it, other than my earlier post.
No. Actually. I don’t. But I have refered you to Shahak’s books if you’re interested in further reading.

While I’m sure that anti-semites love the material he produces (and I’m sure they twist it beyond Shahak’s intented purposes), I’m fairly certain that Shahak was never an antisemite. He seems to be keenly aware of attrocities against others since his experiencing the holocaust.

More to the point, I think he’s trying to make sure that the nation of Israel doesn’t indirectly support watered-down policies that are very similar to those more lethal ones which were used by Nazis against Jews during the holocaust.

He was an Orthodox Jew that could not really tolerate the more negative aspects of Zionism (two very different things in my opinion). While his views may be biased by his vision of Israel being fair to all peoples (which isn’t a bad thing in my opinion), I’m fairly sure he was not just ‘making stuff up’ when he reported these things in his books.
 
I take issue with your allegation that the only reason Israel doesn’t promote bible burning is because of global news networks. That’s just pure speculation and not based on anything.
But it’s not pure speculation. There’s actually a long history of things like this happening in Israel since it’s rebirth.

Consequently, I don’t think Israel promotes it. I think the most radical aspects of Zionism does. The two are not the same-- even if some Zionists have allowed things to happen that the secular nation of Israel disagrees with.

I actually do believe that Jewish people have the legal God-given rights to the nation of Israel well over and above the Muslims who live in that area.

But I don’t think that the more radical aspects of Zionism will aid the nation of Israel in any positive way. And this is exactly what Shahak was speaking out against.
 
Shahak is very far to the left. He’s like CHomsky left. I have no problem discussing and criticizing aspects of Israel. But the government does not condone book burning. I do agree that everyone should criticize their own past before criticizing others, as he states in one of his books.
I tend to think that Shahak is accutely sensitive to these things since his holocaust experience. Different people deal with these kinds of attrocities in very different ways.
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Valke2:
As I’m sure you are aware, there is controversy over the validitiy of some of his statements (I’m sure we are reading from the same wikipedia article, i.e., his allegations that a jew refused to allow someone to use a cell phone to call an ambulance on shabbat).
Actually, I haven’t read it. I’m looking at a book in front of me right now though.
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Valke2:
Shahak finds his followers in pro palestinian circles and the little I’ve read about his accusations seem to be contrary to halacha, so I have my doubts. His books are often found on holocaust denier websites.
Well…I’m not denying the holocaust happened. Neither is Shahak. More to the point, the antisemites, pro-palistinians, and holocaust deniers who quote Shahak’s words often seem to miss the reason why Shahak is writing in the first place.

Shahak isn’t writing these things because he denies the holocaust happened. He lived through it.

More to the point, Shahak is writing these things because he doesn’t want anyone else, Jew or Gentile, to go through it ever again.
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Valke2:
Why are we discussing him again?
Christmas trees in public places.

Remember?

By the way, we put up our Christmas tree today. Seriously. 🙂
 
But it’s not pure speculation. There’s actually a long history of things like this happening in Israel since it’s rebirth.

Consequently, I don’t think Israel promotes it. I think the most radical aspects of Zionism does. The two are not the same-- even if some Zionists have allowed things to happen that the secular nation of Israel disagrees with.

I actually do believe that Jewish people have the legal God-given rights to the nation of Israel well over and above the Muslims who live in that area.

But I don’t think that the more radical aspects of Zionism will aid the nation of Israel in any positive way. And this is exactly what Shahak was speaking out against.
We are talking about book burning. Israel does not have a long history of book burning. When was it done, by whom, and what was the Israeli government’s reaction.
 
No. Actually. I don’t. But I have refered you to Shahak’s books if you’re interested in further reading.
Shahak discusses book burning in his book? If so, I don’t view his testimony on anecdotal evidence as compelling. He’s reporting on such things, according to the article I read, was suspect, and he has been accused of making stories up to support his position.
 
But it’s not pure speculation. There’s actually a long history of things like this happening in Israel since it’s rebirth.
I don’t know what to make of that statement. First you alleged that there was a campaign of bible burning in Israel in the 80s, but I’m not sure where you got that information from. Now you are saying Israel has a long history of doing things like this. What sort of things? Are you referring to ultra right religious groups? And if so, what actions? Israel is a country, and like any country it is going to have people who commit hate crimes.
 
We are talking about book burning. Israel does not have a long history of book burning. When was it done, by whom, and what was the Israeli government’s reaction.
No. We’re talking about the freedom to express one’s religious beliefs in public-- and the question of whether or not they should be allowed to do this.

Remember the Christmas tree?
 
No. We’re talking about the freedom to express one’s religious beliefs in public-- and the question of whether or not they should be allowed to do this.

Remember the Christmas tree?
Excuse me. I had raised that issue as it pertains to the US. You then responded with an allegation that Israel burns bibles and asked if I was ok with that. Now you are talking about Israel doing “things like that.”
 
I don’t know what to make of that statement. First you alleged that there was a campaign of bible burning in Israel in the 80s, but I’m not sure where you got that information from.
I got the information from a reference to Shahak’s book. I even provided a link for you to examine it further if you wanted to.

I can’t personally verify it. I’m going on the word of an Orthodox Jewish man who survived the holocaust and lived in Israel and has claimed this happened on March 23, 1980.

It wasn’t a religious campaingn to remove Chrsitianity Valke2. It was a public expression of a religous belief.

Look. I don’t live in Israel-- so I can’t verify this.

Send an email to stillsmallvoice. He lives there. He could verify whether these facts are true or not.
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Valke2:
Now you are saying Israel has a long history of doing things like this. What sort of things? Are you referring to ultra right religious groups? And if so, what actions? Israel is a country, and like any country it is going to have people who commit hate crimes.
I don’t know if they’re hate crimes. But there does appear to be some kind of non-Jewish discrimination going on there.

In 1992 a US State Department report on human rights discussed Israel’s rule of non-Jews in the occupied territories. In effect, the report claimed that there was a dual system of law.

For example, sentences given to Israelis for killing Palestinians were generally much lighter than sentences handed down to Palestinians convicted of killing either Israelis or Palestinians.

Israeli settlers were also effecitvely immune to many forms of disciplinary actions and restrictions which were placed on Palestinians too. Examples included restrictions on movement and travel, detention without charge or trial, closure of schools and universities, and many other examples.

Things may have improved since this time. But I honestly don’t know for sure since I don’t live there.

Nonetheless, a pattern of profaning Christian sites did apparently begin early in the history of a the re-emerging nation of Israel. Outrageous incidents of anti-Christian desecration have led to official protests from from the UN, other countries, and sometimes by international Christian bodies.

For example, the CUP (Christian Union of Palestine) led the way in 1948 by issuing a statement denouncing the destruction and descreation of Christian holy places that took place as a part of the war to establish the Stae of Israel.

In the preamble to their statement, the CUP said…
Because of this dreadful situation, We, the representatives of the Christian Communities, deem it our solemn duty to raise our voice of protest against the violation of the sanctity of our Churches, convents and institutions.
The report that followed detailed 26 of the worst cases that had occured during the course of the war. Consequently, this wasn’t simply the normal sort of casualties that one would expect during wartime. In fact, since that time, incidents of vandalism have increased rather than diminished.

Me personally? I’m not sure what to make of these reports. But it seems to me that there is indeed a long history of things like this happening in Israel since it’s rebirth. It isn’t just Shahak making these claims.
 
Excuse me. I had raised that issue as it pertains to the US. You then responded with an allegation that Israel burns bibles and asked if I was ok with that. Now you are talking about Israel doing “things like that.”
Well excuse me, but I think it’s kind of hypocritical to get worked up over a Christmas tree in a public place while this other stuff is going on.

If you don’t like it, then don’t go throwing stones in glass houses.

I don’t think any of us will benefit from that. And I’m sure the nation of Israel (when influenced by radical Zionism) has it’s own skelletons in its closet-- just like the rest of the nations Valke2.
 
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