Calling all agnostics and atheists

[MerryAtheist]

Eye witness accounts are valid forms of evidence. Right? Eye witness accounts of Jesus being alive after being crucified and killed were documented and preserved. How can you say there is no objective evidence? You may say this is insufficient, or you think they are a lie. But these are just you opinions.

I would classify such accounts (and it is highly unlikely that they were “eyewitness” accounts, but that’s a subject for another thread) in the poetry and/or imaginary sub-category; but they certainly qualify for placement somewhere in the “non-objective” main category.

And you are correct that these are “just” my opinions. What else have I or anyone else to offer on these boards? Your challenge is to counter them with reasonable opinions of your own, not by disparaging mine simply because they aren’t yours.

 

[Keikiolu]

I actually wasn’t thinking in context of purpose in a theological sense, but rather in a purely secular and naturalistic sense. So… let’s change it to a theological sense.

Even in a “purely secular and naturalistic sense” the PURPOSE of existence is to continue to strive for a “better existence”.

Organic molecules “strive” to become “life” because their “purpose” is to be part of a “better form of existence”, a more “fullfilling” form, namely “life”.

In regards to the purpose of life… that’s a tough one. I’ve heard many different “purposes” of life. I don’t claim to know what the right one is.

This is where most people limit themselves into disconnecting from reality.

THE (singular) purpose in the universe is to “strive toward that which is the most good”, the MOST “desirable”, the MOST fully satisfying form of existence.

That one purpose has as it’s obvious goal, BEST EXISTENCE,… which is to be most fully “I AM”,… which is God.

All other sub-purposes of life either move one toward or away from that goal.

All we can do is live a good and moral life and hope that we are implicitly performing our purpose as expected from us by God. I believe that if we follow the Word of God we are performing our purpose… even if we don’t know specifically what that is (i.e. vocations, “calling”).

Also, I believe each person has a different purpose from God. You’re right that human communication and purely materialistic communication are not the only forms of valid communication. It’s a long story… but it’s only through those discrete forms of communication, prayer, and a strong faith that I am pursuing my current career.

We all have our special places within the great common striving toward God, and it would be lovely indeed is more people could hear the urging of matter itself and their brothers who know, which is there only to encourage them in their work.

Since only the will of man is capable of purposefully striving away from God, the creations of the universe truly cry when that choice is made, because it hinders them in their progress toward God.

And great shouts of joy, often unheard, are sent up for every will choosing the right direction.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[MerryAtheist]

And great shouts of joy, often unheard, are sent up for every will choosing the right direction.

How great can they be if they aren’t heard?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Eye witness accounts are valid forms of evidence. Right? Eye witness accounts of Jesus being alive after being crucified and killed were documented and preserved. How can you say there is no objective evidence? You may say this is insufficient, or you think they are a lie. But these are just you opinions.

Hear-says, myths & rumours. nothing more.

What you read in the bible is not any more credible than ‘preserved’ ‘eye witness accounts’ of Mohammad miraculously making date fruits dance, splitting the moon, and creating water out of thin air. Nothing more credible than those witnessed Joseph Smiths golden tablets.

Incredible claims require much more than plain old OBSCURE witnesses, heard from the friend of a friend of a friend of somebody.

 

[davidv]

I would classify such accounts (and it is highly unlikely that they were “eyewitness” accounts, but that’s a subject for another thread) in the poetry and/or imaginary sub-category; but they certainly qualify for placement somewhere in the “non-objective” main category.

And you are correct that these are “just” my opinions. What else have I or anyone else to offer on these boards? Your challenge is to counter them with reasonable opinions of your own, not by disparaging mine simply because they aren’t yours.

It was not meant as dispaging. My apologies.

 

[MerryAtheist]

It was not meant as dispaging. My apologies.

I wasn’t offended or hurt, so no harm done.

 

[Pete_1]

Actually the idea of ‘afterlife’ was just a pretty recent (compared to humanity’s entire history) invention.

Source please?

 

[jimmy85]

Amen, brother!

i suppose the purpose of death is to promote change. to promote improvement.

perhaps that applies only for things that lack reason and thus they lack spirituality.

 

[jimmy85]

Hear-says, myths & rumours. nothing more.

What you read in the bible is not any more credible than ‘preserved’ ‘eye witness accounts’ of Mohammad miraculously making date fruits dance, splitting the moon, and creating water out of thin air. Nothing more credible than those witnessed Joseph Smiths golden tablets.

Incredible claims require much more than plain old OBSCURE witnesses, heard from the friend of a friend of a friend of somebody.

Well see deism is less logical than the quran n all that u mentioned above. you seem to read the bible very literaly.

it is more logical to think about God as a God that interfere in our history, rather than a God that abandoned us here so we can kill each other or do whatever we want wthout any reason nor hope for justice not even in the afterlife.

However it seem logicaly that the God u know in the bible dosent make any sense neither, becuase in my opinon the God of the bible that u know is not the real God of the bible. you are supposing the way he is, and you are being influenciated by the fact that u read the bible very literaly, and you are therefore giving many faces to God.

instead try to look for God by reason and love n u will find that the real God has to be undoubtly somehow near his cretuares. and he wont neglecte them.

You could also try to think about whether we really have real justice or not over here. I wouldnt like to think that your deist God is neglecting us while the just people suffer and the evil people remain completely unpunish. without an afterlife nor a divine justice. life sudenly would appear more meanigless, and unreasonable.

 

[jimmy85]

Hear-says, myths & rumours. nothing more.

What you read in the bible is not any more credible than ‘preserved’ ‘eye witness accounts’ of Mohammad miraculously making date fruits dance, splitting the moon, and creating water out of thin air. Nothing more credible than those witnessed Joseph Smiths golden tablets.

Incredible claims require much more than plain old OBSCURE witnesses, heard from the friend of a friend of a friend of somebody.

For example I remember you had a thread that was kind of making fun about the passage of the old testament about a person getting closer to the ark of the covenant and that he died becuase of being near to it.

The problems is that you rush to laugh about it thinking it was a “literal true event” and you undermine the fact that the passage could have been writen as a mere “lesson” that was used in that time in order to depict the greateness of God, that the writer wanted to include along with the bible story. besides the writers of the bible have some liberty in order to write things on their own or lessons.

At that time you must think that what u read was a fact but you misunderstand it because it was a lessons or a fictious story. I think that is why you dont find any meaning nor reason for the God that is in the bible.

 

[FatherofHubriss]

The vast majority of scientists agree on the concept of entropy, the gradual degeneration of order and matter in the universe, such as seen in the extinction of stars and the expansion of the universe. It is seen on earth in such examples as the erosion of the seashore, the oxidation of organic matter (such as decomposition and fire) and the rusting and corrosion of metals. Yet, so many of them also accept evolution, which is counter to entropy, and holds that living things have some capacity to adapt in and of themselves, thus sidestepping the process. Why inanimate objects are exempt is beyond me, since anything with a chemical structure could conceivably be possesed of the same tendency. Unless there is an overriding outside force acting upon it. Hmmmm…

Yea…Hmmm…?

 

[FatherofHubriss]

nah, life is all about change. the ultimate goal is survival. and survival depends on change.

religion is just a reflection of the human need to survive.

because there is much we have to learn. but dont worry, humanity is getting there. the fountain of youth.

I would think that by an organism surviving this is the ultimate in no change!

For example Mr. Human learns how to live forever - where’s the “change” there?

 

[FatherofHubriss]

OK you guys, put on your thinking caps. What do proponents of Darwinian evolution say that is an animals most important goal in its life cycle. Isn’t it at its base to send its genetic information on into the the next generation? The ultimate goal would be to send it into the future unchanged - correct? Do you think for one minute that if we humans had the ability to extend our lives indefinitely that we would hesitate one second to do it? Then what happens to resources for the next generation. Who cares - maybe we will decide to severely limit the population by banning procreation. Let’s just take for instance geriatrics. If we could avoid getting old would that solve the problem? Is it possible that we will never be able to have immortality here on earth because our genetic makeup is such that there is a higher purpose built into our genetics for death - being true to the theory of Darwinian evolution’s ultimate goal? In other words our genetics are such that we are programmed to die so that we can experience our “higher purpose” and send our genetics into a higher more complete reality. Just think about that a bit.

I may someday eat crow but I don’t think we will ever figure out how to extend our lives indefinitely because biochemistry will never allow us. Is it possible - you bet! Did you know that there are lines of cancer cells that can live indefinitely with the proper care. Why can’t we convert our living cells into similar immortal cells and turn off programmed death. To me it doesn’t seem that it would be that hard to do but it seems to continue to elude the ability of science to do so - why is that?

I like it! Hmmmm…

 

[FatherofHubriss]

I bet the pattern evolved more recently than eyes evolved. The butterflies might have existed without that pattern for some time, then evolved it later.

Yes, but being smart humans we may someday approximate immortality artificially save some catastrophe as in being squished by a rock or hit by a car or dying of some incurable disease.

If you correctly put the right amount of energy into any system you can over-come entropy, especially if that system has in place a way of regenerateing and repairing itself - like say humans and other animals do.

 

[FatherofHubriss]

Entropy sucks. That’s the short answer. You just can’t beat thermodynamics.

As for evolution, no, immortality is actually contrary to the natural process. Immortals don’t adapt. The idea behind natural selection is that whatever is unfit for the environment gets weeded out to make room for those creatures that fit it better – and when the environment changes (say, a new ice age), the criteria for ‘fit’ change as well. An immortal creature won’t meet those new criteria; it’s a finger in Nature’s eye.

The goal of life, in strictly biological terms, is to procreate and get out of the way – in other words, die.

Yes, but being smart humans we may someday approximate immortality artificially save some catastrophe as in being squished by a rock or hit by a car or dying of some incurable disease.

If you correctly put the right amount of energy into any system you can over-come entropy, especially if that system has in place a way of regenerateing and repairing itself - like say humans and other animals do.

 

[Mirdath]

If you correctly put the right amount of energy into any system you can over-come entropy, especially if that system has in place a way of regenerateing and repairing itself - like say humans and other animals do.

And where are you going to get that energy from?

Thermodynamics: you can’t win, you can’t break even, and you can’t get out of the game.

 

[AgnosTheist]

perhaps that applies only for things that lack reason and thus they lack spirituality.

well it worked long enough to produce reasonable animals. now we can use our nature-given reasoning powers to control our evolution by defeating aging, and possibly death. BWAHAHAHA!

 

[AgnosTheist]

you seem to read the bible very literaly.

The problems is that you rush to laugh about it thinking it was a “literal true event”

jews believe its literal. they are the authority on the old testament, not you christians.

and you undermine the fact that the passage could have been writen as a mere “lesson” that was used in that time in order to depict the greateness of God

for me it both depicts the greatness, cruelty & inconsideration of your god. how else can you make sense of somebody being zapped for instinctively trying to help?

it is more logical to think about God as a God that interfere in our history, rather than a God that abandoned us here so we can kill each other or do whatever we want wthout any reason nor hope for justice not even in the afterlife.

there is no logic in your “God that interfere in our history” since we are succeeding in killing each other anyway. like where is your god when 6 million jews were gassed? where is your god when catholics massacred the protestants? where is your god when muslims massacred the catholics?

instead try to look for God by reason and love n u will find that the real God has to be undoubtly somehow near his cretuares. and he wont neglecte them.

did that. been there. nada.

without an afterlife nor a divine justice. life sudenly would appear more meanigless, and unreasonable.

its meaningful & reasonable for us.

 

[Keikiolu]

And where are you going to get that energy from?

Thermodynamics: you can’t win, you can’t break even, and you can’t get out of the game.

That’s the point Mir…!

Why does the matter of the universe BOTHER to organize itself into more and more negentropic forms?

The reason is that it “knows”, has been created to strive toward, what “makes it happy” (whatever “happy” means in it’s own particular way of course) and it moves toward the “most good”.

Only man can “rationalize” this goal of all the entities of the universe, of all of the forms formed during all the finite time of our universe, away.

And those who do descend ultimately into despair, because no creature created by God can either respect or understand such simple negation of the obvious.

When you are utterly swimming against the stream, and everything is screaming at you that you’re doing yourself damage in your frustration yet refuse to hear them, we can only hope that you’ll get real and figure out that there is a good reason for your frustration, and change your ways.

But,… some people ARE masochists. Those who believe in hope can simply hope that hope comes into the lives of the hopeless.

Best to you poor frustrated and desparate atheists in improving your hearing.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jimmy85]

for me it both depicts the greatness, cruelty & inconsideration of your god. how else can you make sense of somebody being zapped for instinctively trying to help?.

that just confirm waht I said above about you missing the whole point.

there is no logic in your “God that interfere in our history” since we are succeeding in killing each other anyway. like where is your god when 6 million jews were gassed? where is your god when catholics massacred the protestants? where is your god when muslims massacred the catholics?

the same feeling is reciprocal for your deist God.

There is something call free will, peopel make the world the way they want. God respect that, and we have free will, this misfortunes happening only back up the fact that there must be divine justice otherwise what is the meaning of life for the people in those situation that you mentioned above? to evolve to change for some weird stuff for improvement, I dont get it ?

If you put aside the concept of an afterlife or the concept of a soul you wont find a meaning for this misfortunes or for death ever.
the misfortunes above mentioned only make sense when you approve the concept of an afterlife, therefore the concept of justice after this life must be true, otherwise we, death, or anything dosent make any sense.
Without a true justice everything lacks a true reason and meaning.