Calling all Americans Catholics! I have questions for you!

[rlg94086]

Not a response … just information US and Europe …

Fair enough. As I’ve said, I’ve been to Europe and had the opportunity to talk about our differences from a government policy, taxation, etc. standpoint. If you are dealing with people who are honest about the good and bad of their country (not just out to bash the US, as many Europeans unfortunately seem to enjoy), you can learn a lot.

My educated guess regarding the personal charity on the part of our European counterparts is that 1) they are less religious, 2) they expect government to do it, 3) they are heavily taxed, so they have less disposable income.

I wouldn’t be surprised if their savings accounts are healthier than most Americans. There is still a cultural norm there that people save their money. We used to have that here as well, but it is no longer the case for most Americans. According to my former co-workers, it is also disappearing in Europe. However, as I explained, they do have forced retirement accounts - think of it as a 401k without the freedom of determining if you’ll participate and a minimum requirement for investment.

They used to have strong unemployment benefits and labor protection in Holland, but those are also disappearing. As I said, the programs were unsustainable. Their social security system for the future is also in jeopardy. Hopefully, their soon-to-be-seniors are in better shape with their retirement accounts than our soon-to-be-seniors. Otherwise, they may be in for a world of hurt.

 

[ribozyme]

Fair enough. As I’ve said, I’ve been to Europe and had the opportunity to talk about our differences from a government policy, taxation, etc. standpoint. If you are dealing with people who are honest about the good and bad of their country (not just out to bash the US, as many Europeans unfortunately seem to enjoy), you can learn a lot.

My educated guess regarding the personal charity on the part of our European counterparts is that 1) they are less religious, 2) they expect government to do it, 3) they are heavily taxed, so they have less disposable income.

So what could one person accomplish with charity if their last name isn’t Soros, Gates, or Buffett? Charity will only make me feel inadequate to deal with the enormous scale of the world’s problems.

 

[rlg94086]

So what could one person accomplish with charity if their last name isn’t Soros, Gates, or Buffett?

 

[ribozyme]

Seriously answer that question.

 

[vz71]

So what could one person accomplish with charity if their last name isn’t Soros, Gates, or Buffett? Charity will only make me feel inadequate to deal with the enormous scale of the world’s problems.

There is a rather large number of Saints that have done through charity more then any of those you mention.
Perhaps you should read up on them.

 

[rlg94086]

Seriously answer that question.

You are an “all or nothing” sort of thinker. Personal charity - giving whatever one can to someone else out of the goodness of your heart - accomplishes a lot. First of all, it is not required that one person use their charity to support a whole city. If someone gives even 1% of their income to a charitable cause, that cause (e.g. Catholic Charities) takes many such contributions and reaches out to others. If the same person gives of their time at a food bank, hospice, pregnancy center, etc., they physically, directly help many people.

Now, multiply that by millions of people. You don’t have to be a Soros or a Gates for your charity to be important.

You have previously argued that to insure money gets distributed, we need to do all of these activities through taxes and bureacracy. However, there are a couple of problems with such an approach.

1. It is extremely inefficient - look at where the money goes in a government program versus a private charity. The private charities are almost always more efficient. And, one of the reasons for that is…
2. You lose the volunteer aspect. People who are taking care of people out of love, rather than a jaded social worker who is getting paid is much better for all involved.

What we need to do is encourage more people to be charitable, rather than taking that gift of love away from them (and yes I am talking about the giver…not the recipient). Our society benefits tremendously when we become more connected, rather than alienating ourselves from each other by using a bureaucracy.

 

[RobbyS]

Fair enough. As I’ve said, I’ve been to Europe and had the opportunity to talk about our differences from a government policy, taxation, etc. standpoint. If you are dealing with people who are honest about the good and bad of their country (not just out to bash the US, as many Europeans unfortunately seem to enjoy), you can learn a lot.

My educated guess regarding the personal charity on the part of our European counterparts is that 1) they are less religious, 2) they expect government to do it, 3) they are heavily taxed, so they have less disposable income.

I wouldn’t be surprised if their savings accounts are healthier than most Americans. There is still a cultural norm there that people save their money. We used to have that here as well, but it is no longer the case for most Americans. According to my former co-workers, it is also disappearing in Europe. However, as I explained, they do have forced retirement accounts - think of it as a 401k without the freedom of determining if you’ll participate and a minimum requirement for investment.

They used to have strong unemployment benefits and labor protection in Holland, but those are also disappearing. As I said, the programs were unsustainable. Their social security system for the future is also in jeopardy. Hopefully, their soon-to-be-seniors are in better shape with their retirement accounts than our soon-to-be-seniors. Otherwise, they may be in for a world of hurt.

I lived in Germany for almost thirty years, and you are pretty much on the mark. After the war the Germans worked hard to reconstruct their country, and this was pretty much accomplished by 1970. The next generation was a little less hard-working, and took advanatge of the welfare state, under the military protection of the United States. The next generation tended more toward socialism; the unification of the country has increased this tendency. But whether Wesssies or Ossies, Germans pretty muck lack what we call voluntarism. Churches as well as political parties are in effect state institutions.

 

[YADA]

So what could one person accomplish with charity if their last name isn’t Soros, Gates, or Buffett? Charity will only make me feel inadequate to deal with the enormous scale of the world’s problems.

You’ve made this complaint on various threads and people answer you continually…

I suggest you stop worshiping George Soros and worship Christ … the True God.

then look at what Christ inspires people to do …

and study a few real saints like Maximillian Kolbe …you can start here ewtn.com/library/MARY/KOLBE.htm …

or here … jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Kolbe.html

or you could study about Father Damien, you could start here ewtn.com/library/MARY/DAMIEN.htm

or here sscc.org/pages/x_Damien/damien_bio.htm

 

[christcnection1]

What we need to do is encourage more people to be charitable, rather than taking that gift of love away from them (and yes I am talking about the giver…not the recipient). Our society benefits tremendously when we become more connected, rather than alienating ourselves from each other by using a bureaucracy.

And that does tend to be the case…

After working in a hospital environment for some time, it has become clear that the people’s motivations for being there are quite mixed. Indeed, there are many people who are very knowledgeable, “effective” at what they do, and help to bring people to health. However, many of those people don’t really care about the relational element of other’s well-being. The loneliness of many patients, particularly the elderly, is probably the greatest pain they have.

The hunger of loneliness, insecurity, feelings of abandonment are often greater sources of pain and poverty. I believe Mother Theresa said it herself. It’s not just about the number of people who have food in their mouth, as important as that is.

When we touch one person at a time with love, it frequently has a domino effect. A small spark can set the whole forest on fire. I am sure you are in agreement.

 

[rlg94086]

I lived in Germany for almost thirty years, and you are pretty much on the mark. After the war the Germans worked hard to reconstruct their country, and this was pretty much accomplished by 1970. The next generation was a little less hard-working, and took advanatge of the welfare state, under the military protection of the United States. The next generation tended more toward socialism; the unification of the country has increased this tendency. But whether Wesssies or Ossies, Germans pretty muck lack what we call voluntarism. Churches as well as political parties are in effect state institutions.

Personally, I think their societies are worse off because of it. As I explained to Ribozyme, volunteerism connects us as human beings. When you remove that aspect, there is no longer a giver - he is replaced by the state. The giver loses the gifts that come from charity (gifts of grace from God). The receiver loses some sense of self-reliance and looks to the state as a primary source rather than a safety net. There is no longer a direct interdependence between people. Everyone loses.

BTW…this doesn’t mean we are off the hook on this one. In America, we are headed down the same road. The same disconnectedness (is that a word? ) that is becoming the norm in neighborhoods (people barely know their neighbors anymore in many, many neighborhoods) leads to less charity, which leads to greater disconnection, which leads to less charity, etc., etc.

The best thing that we can do in our parishes is to encourage an increase in charitable acts. There is actually a great program started in the LaCrosse diocese in Wisconsin called Faith Alive. It integrates bible study with social action. Unfortunately, the author’s website (www.novomill.com) and the diocese website (dioceseoflacrosse.com/ ) are both down right now. I met the author, Christopher Ruff, at a conference at Franciscan University a few weeks ago. It has worked well for them in Wisconsin. The book is called As I Have Loved You.

 

[rlg94086]

And that does tend to be the case…

After working in a hospital environment for some time, it has become clear that the people’s motivations for being there are quite mixed. Indeed, there are many people who are very knowledgeable, “effective” at what they do, and help to bring people to health. However, many of those people don’t really care about the relational element of other’s well-being. The loneliness of many patients, particularly the elderly, is probably the greatest pain they have.

The hunger of loneliness, insecurity, feelings of abandonment are often greater sources of pain and poverty. I believe Mother Theresa said it herself. It’s not just about the number of people who have food in their mouth, as important as that is.

When we touch one person at a time with love, it frequently has a domino effect. A small spark can set the whole forest on fire.** I am sure you are in agreement.**

1000%

 

[Cathy]

And that does tend to be the case…

After working in a hospital environment for some time, it has become clear that the people’s motivations for being there are quite mixed. Indeed, there are many people who are very knowledgeable, “effective” at what they do, and help to bring people to health. However, many of those people don’t really care about the relational element of other’s well-being. The loneliness of many patients, particularly the elderly, is probably the greatest pain they have.

The hunger of loneliness, insecurity, feelings of abandonment are often greater sources of pain and poverty. I believe Mother Theresa said it herself. It’s not just about the number of people who have food in their mouth, as important as that is.

When we touch one person at a time with love, it frequently has a domino effect. A small spark can set the whole forest on fire. I am sure you are in agreement.

This is so, so true. My father was a doctor…one who practiced medicine as a calling and who loved his patients as extended family members. My father was not rich in money, but rich in love…he never turned a needy patient away, and about half of his patients were Medicare, which in the 1970’s paid him only half of his expenses for taking care of his Medicare patients. But we never went hungry under my father’s care. Once I was in the hospital to have my wisdom teeth out, and complications forced me to stay for several days. Nothing about my stay was as painful as the loneliness of having no visitors in several days (my father coming only after I was asleep, or after hours and being kicked out by the nurse), nor as soothing as having the little neighbor boy I used to babysit sneak in through the garden door (he was too young to visit officially).

 

[ribozyme]

I live in Michigan, which has the worst economy in all 50 States. I make about half what I should be making for my type of job; I have no health care insurance, which means I deal every day with a kinked back and a bad tooth, and have been for six months because I do not have money enough to see either a chiropracter or a dentist to get either one taken care of. My wife is unemployed and will remain so due to the fact that our second vehicle died, so she couldn’t go look for a job even if she wanted to, and her benefits ran out some time ago. No second vehicle also means she can’t go to the food pantries to pick up extra food, so we live on pretty short rations. My wages will pay the rent and the utilities----that’s it. There is no money left over for food, medical attention, prescriptions, or anything else.

Do you think that charity will help you remove the pain from your tooth or back? Will charity improve your standard of living and reduce your insecurity?

 

[thomfra]

He seems to think the government should do everything for everyone.

I would (as a tax payer) expect that I would get something for my money.

If you extend *your *argument to it’s logical conclusion, you might as well privatize everthing your taxes are spent on. Why should people without cars have to pay for roads on which they never drive?

Charaties have and will always have a role to play. But I think it’s a cop-out if governments just say “well, we are collecting all this tax, but lets let the charities look after the poor”.

 

[Dale_M]

ANd here is a paper on the charitable giving of countries and their private citizen donations, it is 40 pages but interesting … cgdev.org/doc/cdi/charitablegiving.pdf

I just skimmed it, but found a table on page 6 which looks relevant to assessing private giving as a percentage of GDP. The US does a respectable amount, coming in at #3, but Ireland and Norway give approximately twice as much. They rock!

Table 2. Weighted DAC country NGO grants to developing countries (most recent year)
CountryGiving per capita (US$)Giving/GDP(%)
Australia$16.95 0.07%
Austria$10.26 0.03%
Belgium$15.90 0.05%
Canada$17.86 0.07%
Denmark$3.34 0.01%
Finland$2.49 0.01%
France$4.69 0.02%
Germany$13.41 0.05%
Greece$0.63 0.00%
Ireland$70.86 0.19%
Italy$0.47 0.00%
Japan$2.63 0.01%
Luxembourg$15.04 0.03%
Netherlands$23.36 0.07%
New Zealand$4.49 0.02%
Norway$98.86 0.20%
Portugal$0.29 0.00%
Spain$3.21 0.02%
Sweden$2.57 0.01%
Switzerland$39.59 0.09%
United Kingdom$6.62 0.02%
United States$36.38 0.10%
Source: OECD/DAC (2005a).
(please excuse the poor formatting)

But this table addresses only aid to developing countries. If we are talking about aid to our fellow citizens, then we need a different measure.

 

[Wolseley]

Do you think that charity will help you remove the pain from your tooth or back? Will charity improve your standard of living and reduce your insecurity?

You misunderstand me. I’m not asking for charity, all I want is the means to make a decent living at decent pay to support myself and my family, and I’ll be happy to pay for health care.

Unfortunately, the policy in this country for the last thrity years has been, “Oh, my God, we just HAVE to have global free trade!!!”, with the result that every worthwhile job in America (certainly in Michigan) has gone to Mexico or Communist China. At present trends, by 2010 the major industry in Michigan is going to consist of sugar beets and sweet cherries.

We have gotten too big, and too global. If you’re a little guy, you’re caught in the grip of forces that are way beyond your control----and if those forces end up leaving you behind, well, you end up in the situation I’m in, and a lot of us out here are in the same fix. If you go to school, study hard, get good grades, then find a good-paying job, apply yourself, save your money, and work hard, you will end up flat broke when your company closes its American operations and goes to China and your CEO runs off with the company retirement money, and you will die penniless in a homeless shelter and be buried in pauper’s grave by the county.

So much for the Calvinist work ethic.

Eventually it’ll reach a point where we won’t be able to pay taxes to Our Benevolent Government any more, and they’ll start screaming about it because members of Congress won’t be able to take junkets to Aruba on their private yachts any more.

Too bad. Here, Senator, turn up your coat collar and get in the bread line along with everybody else, and learn how real people have to live.

 

[ribozyme]

You misunderstand me. I’m not asking for charity, all I want is the means to make a decent living at decent pay to support myself and my family, and I’ll be happy to pay for health care.

Unfortunately, the policy in this country for the last thrity years has been, “Oh, my God, we just HAVE to have global free trade!!!”, with the result that every worthwhile job in America (certainly in Michigan) has gone to Mexico or Communist China. At present trends, by 2010 the major industry in Michigan is going to consist of sugar beets and sweet cherries.

We have gotten too big, and too global. If you’re a little guy, you’re caught in the grip of forces that are way beyond your control----and if those forces end up leaving you behind, well, you end up in the situation I’m in, and a lot of us out here are in the same fix. If you go to school, study hard, get good grades, then find a good-paying job, apply yourself, save your money, and work hard, you will end up flat broke when your company closes its American operations and goes to China and your CEO runs off with the company retirement money, and you will die penniless in a homeless shelter and be buried in pauper’s grave by the county.

So much for the Calvinist work ethic.

Eventually it’ll reach a point where we won’t be able to pay taxes to Our Benevolent Government any more, and they’ll start screaming about it because members of Congress won’t be able to take junkets to Aruba on their private yachts any more.

Too bad. Here, Senator, turn up your coat collar and get in the bread line along with everybody else, and learn how real people have to live.

Yes the Calvinist work ethic is a failed paradigm now elevated to the status of a dogma. The point of the welfare state is to protect people from economic adversity such as losing the means of supporting themselves.

But why do you care about income inequality? (Especially with your remarks regarding private yachts.) I thought only bleeding heart lib-buh-rals such as myself should care about.

And some lib-buh-rals do not support “free-trade.” The issue was pushed in the 1990s because it seemed so good to economists who perpetually invoke Ricardo’s principle of comparative advantage, absolute advantage, and Pareto efficiency. Supporting free-trade during the political epoch seemed to be “progressive.” Centrist groups such as the Democratic Leadership Council support it along with the Clinton Adminstration (this was also part of the soi-dissant “Rubinomics”). However, some such as the leftist labor-oriented think tank Economic Policy Institute knew that this would lead to outsourcing and a loss of high paying jobs.

That’s how I see it. Anyone want to offer any objections.

 

[RobHom]

I have two questions:

1. Why is America like this?
2. How do Catholic Americans feel about how the average American citizen is looked after when things don’t go so well (those who are broke, sick, unemployed etc).

First…beyond the fact that “European’s” do not actually get free health care…they pay for it in their income taxes…I will answer your questions.

1. America is not like that. It is only some American’s who are like that. The political structure, and the people who are in politics are driven by money…and they respond to who has the most bucks ($$) to influence them. The politicians give lip service to voters…thats truth and reality. Its a sick system that needs to be fixed.
2. I believe that the average Catholic American stood shocked and aghast at what has happened after Katrina…and other incidents…like the response to the devastation in my home area after Hurricane Charley came ashore in SW FL. Frankly, I, both as a citizen and Catholic, am disgusted…as are many others of many faiths, by the lack of concern by governmental agencies and others at the plight of the poor, homeless, sick and disenfranchised. The “haves” are only concerned about themselves and squeezing another penny of profits…and they really don’t care who’s backs they make it on.

But, when you see news reports…anywhere in the world…take them with a grain of salt. “Good news” does not sell…only bad news sells. So, what you will be fed by the media outlets is only the downside of the news…they will not tell you about the levels of superior response by various different charities and individuals who donated millions of dollars and untold hours of service to help people get their lives back on track.

There is still work being done to help people… and I’m sure it will continue…but at the same time…many people, myself included, wonder about the sanity of rebuilding a city that actually lies below sea level surrounded by dikes…in an area that is prone to hurricanes…

 

[vz71]

Do you think that charity will help you remove the pain from your tooth or back? Will charity improve your standard of living and reduce your insecurity?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[thomfra]

First…beyond the fact that “European’s” do not actually get free health care…they pay for it in their income taxes…I will answer your questions.

1. America is not like that. It is only some American’s who are like that. The political structure, and the people who are in politics are driven by money…and they respond to who has the most bucks ($$) to influence them. The politicians give lip service to voters…thats truth and reality. Its a sick system that needs to be fixed.
2. I believe that the average Catholic American stood shocked and aghast at what has happened after Katrina…and other incidents…like the response to the devastation in my home area after Hurricane Charley came ashore in SW FL. Frankly, I, both as a citizen and Catholic, am disgusted…as are many others of many faiths, by the lack of concern by governmental agencies and others at the plight of the poor, homeless, sick and disenfranchised. The “haves” are only concerned about themselves and squeezing another penny of profits…and they really don’t care who’s backs they make it on.

But, when you see news reports…anywhere in the world…take them with a grain of salt. “Good news” does not sell…only bad news sells. So, what you will be fed by the media outlets is only the downside of the news…they will not tell you about the levels of superior response by various different charities and individuals who donated millions of dollars and untold hours of service to help people get their lives back on track.

There is still work being done to help people… and I’m sure it will continue…but at the same time…many people, myself included, wonder about the sanity of rebuilding a city that actually lies below sea level surrounded by dikes…in an area that is prone to hurricanes…

1. Yes - the fundamental difference is that even the poor who don’t earn enough to pay any tax get the same treatment as those who have money. For them it is of course free. The more well off pay for them through tax - yes. This seems fair no?

Again, I don’t doubt the generosity of the individual in the US, or of the good work done by charities. But surely if you live in a democracy which is described by many Americans to be “the greatest in the world” then your government should be marginally representative of the people no? Or am I missing something?