Calling all Americans Catholics! I have questions for you!

[KenEOTE]

It is not the governments Jobs to look after the unfortunate. It is the Job of the Church.

You mention free health care and education. We have education that is free and affordable its up to the individual to take advantage of that.

The Health Care in Europe that you talk about is subpar. France is almost bankrupt from its free healthcare. People from around the world come to THE USA for Education and Healthcare when they see how horrible theres is.

Once again it is not the Governements Job to take care of the less fortunate. When the governement tries to it fails. It is the Job of the Church, sadly the Church isn’t doing it either.

 

[Kaninchen]

The Health Care in Europe that you talk about is subpar. France is almost bankrupt from its free healthcare. People from around the world come to THE USA for Education and Healthcare when they see how horrible theres is.

Yes, every day newspaper headlines throughout Europe reflect the demands of Europeans to have a health care system just like that of the US, or not. I’ve never come across even a Conservative European politician who has seriously suggested that the US system should be adopted in their country.

On the other hand, rather than both sides seeking to find the worst aspects of each other’s systems and characterizing entire systems as being the equivalent of the worst aspects, they might just consider that the differing systems reflect the different cultural and social outlooks of European and American societies.

It’s not some kind of macho competition.

 

[Contarini]

And, if you are honest about your own history-- the idea of government taking care of everyone comes out of socialism and communism, rooted in control and totalitarianism.

No, it comes from the Catholic concept of the common good.

Edwin

 

[Oscarthecat]

On the other hand, rather than both sides seeking to find the worst aspects of each other’s systems and characterizing entire systems as being the equivalent of the worst aspects, they might just consider that the differing systems reflect the different cultural and social outlooks of European and American societies.

This is one of the more sensible statements I’ve seen in this thread, and I agree with you completely.

It’s not some kind of macho competition.

I don’t think that machismo is involved here, but I do think that Americans resent the attitude of European primacy expressed by the OP and, for better or worse, we respond in kind.

I keep up with world affairs, but I don’t feel any particular compulsion to troll european discussion boards and chastise them for their internal policies, such as healthcare.

Yet, I frequently encounter people claiming to be europeans on this and other boards, as well as Americans with a “grass is greener” perspective about Europe, who have very strong opinions about how the US ought to pattern its internal affairs according to European models.

Personally, I think that European governments expend a lot of effort hiding their internal problems for the outside world. Anyone who has close family in Europe or has spent a significant amount of time outside of the tourist regions of any European country is perfectly aware that Europeans are struggling with issues of religious intolerance, class warfare, racial tension, unmitigated poverty, and, yes, lack of adequate healthcare. If you don’t believe me, then ask a few people from Ireland what they think about the impact of Polish immigration on preserving Irish culture, ask some people from France about their experience with race riots, or you could ask German, English, or French people to discuss their anxiety about Sharia Law.

In my opinion, the self-righteous and paternalistic attitude expressed by some Europeans in regard to America’s internal affairs masks a deep seated anxiety and denial of the problems they face within their own borders.

 

[Kaninchen]

In my opinion, the self-righteous and paternalistic attitude expressed by some Europeans in regard to America’s internal affairs masks a deep seated anxiety and denial of the problems they face within their own borders.

I’ve lived in the US twice in my life and always made it my business never to comment on internal US politics (or external politics for that matter) and I’ve done the same on message boards over the years, including here.

Would that it were that American contributors to message boards returned the favor - the balance between American posters commenting adversely about European countries as opposed to the other way around is about as lopsided as you can get.

 

[ribozyme]

You’re joking right?

Did you even read that wikipedia article you posted?
The term “managerial state” is used as a slur to discredit the concept of the welfare state, as if the very concept of the welfare state doesn’t do that on its own.

Here’s the description of the “managerial state” from that article…

it continues later…

You are calling for an elite ruling class to “manage” the huddled masses- that is nothing more than establishing a new nobility.

Anyone who could support such a system would have to have such a completely egotistical and self-righteous view of their own superiority over the rest of humanity, and such a dismally low opinion of the ability of other people to live their own lives, that they would be completely unable to understand why such a thing would be so wrong. Such a person would be completely unable to “manage” society effectively, much less fully appreciate the moral weight of their responsibilities.

Ever heard of the french revolution?

I know it is a slur and a pejorative term, but I like the managerial state.

And yes, I most certainly believe that many people are incapable of running their own life.

 

[Caesar517]

I know it is a slur and a pejorative term, but I like the managerial state.

And yes, I most certainly believe that many people are incapable of running their own life.

If people are incapable of running their own lives, what makes you think a government (comprised of people) can run other people’s lives?

 

[ribozyme]

If people are incapable of running their own lives, what makes you think a government (comprised of people) can run other people’s lives?

This is why I believe that many people are incapable of running their own lives.

udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatters.pdf

Read it unless that task is too “g-loaded” for you.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

It is not the governments Jobs to look after the unfortunate. It is the Job of the Church.

You mention free health care and education. We have education that is free and affordable its up to the individual to take advantage of that.

The Health Care in Europe that you talk about is subpar. France is almost bankrupt from its free healthcare. People from around the world come to THE USA for Education and Healthcare when they see how horrible theres is.

Once again it is not the Governements Job to take care of the less fortunate. When the governement tries to it fails. It is the Job of the Church, sadly the Church isn’t doing it either.

:clapping: :yup:

 

[Caesar517]

This is why I believe that many people are incapable of running their own lives.

udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatters.pdf

Read it unless that task is too “g-loaded” for you.

I don’t have time for the whole thing, I just read the abstract. It seems to be saying that intelligence and performance are directly related, and that people with a low IQ are in danger of being left behind in our “increasingly complex postindustrial economy”.

I largely agree with the first part of that, but I don’t see how anyone is in danger of being “left behind”.

What does that have to do with a person’s ability to run their own life and make their own decisions? You didn’t answer my previous question.

 

[rlg94086]

I don’t have time for the whole thing, I just read the abstract. It seems to be saying that intelligence and performance are directly related, and that people with a low IQ are in danger of being left behind in our “increasingly complex postindustrial economy”.

I largely agree with the first part of that, but I don’t see how anyone is in danger of being “left behind”.

What does that have to do with a person’s ability to run their own life and make their own decisions? You didn’t answer my previous question.

Good choice. I printed and read the whole thing the first time Ribozyme posted it. It worked very well for lining my puppy’s crate during housetraining.

 

[Caesar517]

Good choice. I printed and read the whole thing the first time Ribozyme posted it. It worked very well for lining my puppy’s crate during housetraining.

If I read all the links rybozyme posted, I wouldn’t have time for anything else.

 

[ribozyme]

I don’t have time for the whole thing, I just read the abstract. It seems to be saying that intelligence and performance are directly related, and that people with a low IQ are in danger of being left behind in our “increasingly complex postindustrial economy”.

I largely agree with the first part of that, but I don’t see how anyone is in danger of being “left behind”.

What does that have to do with a person’s ability to run their own life and make their own decisions? You didn’t answer my previous question.

They are more likely to fail in life and not have the ability to acquire gainful employment. I am simply saying that they need the therapeutic managerial state to protect them from their own inability to acquire resources for themselves through the labor market. Those people should not be allowed to live miserably.

I read it like about a year ago, I didn’t read that link recently.

 

[Caesar517]

They are more likely to fail in life and not have the ability to acquire gainful employment. I am simply saying that they need the managerial state to protect them from their own inability to acquire resources for themselves.

I need you to define “failing at life” and “gainful employment”. I think those vary from person to person.

I’ll define liberty and even offer a definition of freedom. Don’t you see the value in those at all?

Those people should not be allowed to live miserably.

Who says they’re miserable? I believe that every person has the right to pursue happiness according to thier own definition and their own means. Does a politician know what will make someone happy better than that person himself does?

 

[Oscarthecat]

I know it is a slur and a pejorative term, but I like the managerial state.

And yes, I most certainly believe that many people are incapable of running their own life.

I think you like the idea of the managerial state because you presume that you will be a member of the ruling class or that those in charge will share your values.

But would you be as enthusiastic about a managerial state that imposed values opposite to yours?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

This is one of the more sensible statements I’ve seen in this thread, and I agree with you completely.

I don’t think that machismo is involved here, but I do think that Americans resent the attitude of European primacy expressed by the OP and, for better or worse, we respond in kind.

I keep up with world affairs, but I don’t feel any particular compulsion to troll european discussion boards and chastise them for their internal policies, such as healthcare.

Yet, I frequently encounter people claiming to be europeans on this and other boards, as well as Americans with a “grass is greener” perspective about Europe, who have very strong opinions about how the US ought to pattern its internal affairs according to European models.

Personally, I think that European governments expend a lot of effort hiding their internal problems for the outside world. Anyone who has close family in Europe or has spent a significant amount of time outside of the tourist regions of any European country is perfectly aware that Europeans are struggling with issues of religious intolerance, class warfare, racial tension, unmitigated poverty, and, yes, lack of adequate healthcare. If you don’t believe me, then ask a few people from Ireland what they think about the impact of Polish immigration on preserving Irish culture, ask some people from France about their experience with race riots, or you could ask German, English, or French people to discuss their anxiety about Sharia Law.

In my opinion, the self-righteous and paternalistic attitude expressed by some Europeans in regard to America’s internal affairs masks a deep seated anxiety and denial of the problems they face within their own borders.

Yes. And I believe that some of the people (liberal) are wanting to believe anything good that anyone says about socialism, and deny anything that is the actual truth about how detrimental it is for the healthcare systems in those socialist countries. Sure, if you get a broken arm…which is easy to fix in an Emergency Room…(in America too) you will be taken care of well. But if you have cancer or some terminal illness, you are likely to be given the alternative of no treatment or the government will provide you with assisted suicide options.

The government programs in the US are messed up way too much for me to want to trust all healthcare to them. Insurance companies now run the healthcare industry in this country. When a person with insurance needs an operation or needs to see a specialist, it is up to the insurance company to allow them to do so if the insurance company is expected to pay for it. My parents can’t always get the perscriptions that their doctors prescribe, because the insurance company over rules the doctors educated treatment plan. As though the insurance company knows what will benefit my parents best.
Imagine having some beauracrat in a federal office deciding what the doctors are allowed or not allowed to do for a patient. That is government run healthcare. We would be fools to want something like that.

Liberals tend not to accept that it is the truth of what will happen if we go with a government run healthcare. God have mercy on us if we vote into office people who will pass it into law.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I know it is a slur and a pejorative term, but I like the managerial state.

And yes, I most certainly believe that many people are incapable of running their own life.

But they have the right to do so, irregardless of what you believe. You are young. You have no idea how horrible communism really is to the people. It’s only good looking at it on paper. When applied, it is horrible for the common people. Did you read Pig Farm? Read and learn the lesson from it.

 

[JKS]

You are calling for an elite ruling class to “manage” the huddled masses- that is nothing more than establishing a new nobility.

Anyone who could support such a system would have to have such a completely egotistical and self-righteous view of their own superiority over the rest of humanity, and such a dismally low opinion of the ability of other people to live their own lives, that they would be completely unable to understand why such a thing would be so wrong. Such a person would be completely unable to “manage” society effectively, much less fully appreciate the moral weight of their responsibilities.

Ever heard of the french revolution?

Ever heard of ribozyme?

I’ve waited tables, sold plasma, detasseled corn, whatever it took to earn money and yes, sometimes temporarily did without insurance, but I was proud to earn my own way, as well as I could. I hate taking assistance when I need to, but humility is a virtue (not my favorite, for sure) I knew then, just as I know Cheri knows now, that things won’t always be like that, and that difficult times give us strength that we appreciate later (though it thoroughly s***ks at the time). And having been fondled by my childhood pastor, I know that child molesters fool just about everyone, dear one.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

They are more likely to fail in life and not have the ability to acquire gainful employment. I am simply saying that they need the therapeutic managerial state to protect them from their own inability to acquire resources for themselves through the labor market. Those people should not be allowed to live miserably.

I read it like about a year ago, I didn’t read that link recently.

Who are you or anyone else for that matter to allow them or not allow them to live the lives that they choose for themselves. If we let the government do it your way, poor people with a low IQ will be working in sweat houses being totally taken advantage of by “intelligent people”. That is a reason why the USA became independent of England. It wanted to leave the nobility, who thought that they were better or more intelligent than the lower class, behind. they wanted to be free to make their own way and fortune…which is what many did. Even the minorities have been able to succeed so much that we now have a man of color running for president of the United States of America. Minorities have become Supreme Court Judges, CEOs of major companies, and in every industry in the country. If minorities would listen to the likes of Clarence Thomas and Bill Cosby, they wouldn’t be minorities any longer. Heaven help them if people like you get hold of their lives. You’ll just tell them and others that they are too ignorant, that they haven’t the ability to learn…just like slave owners used to tell them…and exploit them for your own selfish desires.
America…especially the minorities who were thought to be too stupid to excel and take care of themselves have come much too far to have to backslide even 30 years.
And I am a conservative, pro life soul.

If we did it your way, who would decide who was too stupid to run their own lives? And on what would the decision be based. I’ll tell you how. Anyone who disagrees with you, is too stupid to make their own life decisions, and should then be forced to do as you say.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I think you like the idea of the managerial state because you presume that you will be a member of the ruling class or that those in charge will share your values.

But would you be as enthusiastic about a managerial state that imposed values opposite to yours?

Great post. Thanks