Calling all Americans Catholics! I have questions for you!

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I think you like the idea of the managerial state because you presume that you will be a member of the ruling class or that those in charge will share your values.

But would you be as enthusiastic about a managerial state that imposed values opposite to yours?
Paul Gottfried argues that the United States is a “managerial state” too, but I prefer a managerial state modeled after Denmark or Sweden. Unlike the Danish and Swedish states, Gottfried argues that the managerial class in the United States is more interested in promoting diversity and destroying the institution of the family than in redistribution of income although it does attempt to do that. The Northern European states do not focus on diversity and destroying the family that much.

Gottfried argues that the managerial class suppresses free speech to a certain extent when it goes against its agenda of “diversity” by rebranding it as “hate crimes” and “prejudice.” For example, look what happened to James Watson when he said that controversial remark. But I do believe there are certain things that the general public should NOT know.

Charles Murray thinks the managerial class knows these perverse secrets:
But how many people know this? No one who hasn’t read the book. Everyone went nuts about genes, so much so that most people now believe that race and genes is the main topic of our book.
Why? The topic of race and genes is like the topic of sex in Victorian England. The intellectual elites are horrified if anyone talks about it, but behind the scenes they are fascinated. I will say it more baldly than [Richard Herrnstein] and I did in the book: In their heart of hearts, intellectual elites, especially liberal ones, have two nasty secrets regarding IQ. First, they really believe that IQ is the be-all and end-all of human excellence and that someone with a low IQ is inferior. Second, they are already sure that the black -white IQ difference is predominantly genetic and that this is a calamity – such a calamity indeed that it must not be spoken about, even to oneself. To raise these issues holds a mirror up to the elites’ most desperately denied inner thoughts.
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n23_v49/ai_20088593/pg_2
 
Ever heard of ribozyme?

I’ve waited tables, sold plasma, detasseled corn, whatever it took to earn money and yes, sometimes temporarily did without insurance, but I was proud to earn my own way, as well as I could. I hate taking assistance when I need to, but humility is a virtue (not my favorite, for sure) I knew then, just as I know Cheri knows now, that things won’t always be like that, and that difficult times give us strength that we appreciate later (though it thoroughly s***ks at the time). And having been fondled by my childhood pastor, I know that child molesters fool just about everyone, dear one.
that was very heartfelt. Thank you. And yes, I am anxiously waiting for the day that I will be able to do it all on my own, and contribute rather than be contributed to. I have contributed in the past, and God willing, soon I will be able to do so again. No, humility is sometimes a hard pill to swallow, but I would do anything for the welfare of my children. I have cleaned houses, run cash registers, worked all night at gas stations, waited tables and other jobs that society would look down on as employment. I was proud to be working and not sitting on my parents couch expecting them to do it all for me and my children. I am hurting now that I have to wait before getting another job…which will be a substitute teacher at my children’s school so as to only work when they are in school. And I will again be a contributor.
 
Did you read Pig Farm? Read and learn the lesson from it.
Are you referring to the play by Greg Kotis? Amazon.com doesn’t provide any information about its content, but I found a few reviews and the most concise of them said this:
Kotis, book writer for the hit musical Urinetown, may have something to say about the excesses of government oversight, but it would take a rabid Libertarian to find consistent anti-government meaning in this two-hour, two-act, one-joke farce. After all, Kotis portrays these farmers as such willful abusers of common sense and environmental care that they are the perfect examples of why we need government oversight. Since that makes the political dimension moot, we’re left to rely on the comedy.
blogcritics.org/archives/2007/01/25/065357.php
 
IMPORTANT POST !!! The name of the story I posted for Ribozym is WRONG!!! It is not Pig Farm, which was pointed out to me to be something I was not referring to.

The book I was referring to is a book about the horrors of Communism looked at from the point of an animal controled farm. I was attempting to refer him to the book ANIMAL FARM by George Orwell. I am very sincerely sorry for the mistake.

Please Ribozym, don’t include me in with those who should not be allowed to live my life the way I choose.
 
The book I was referring to is a book about the horrors of Communism looked at from the point of an animal controled farm. I was attempting to refer him to the book ANIMAL FARM by George Orwell. I am very sincerely sorry for the mistake.
I thought that might be the case. Excellent book. 👍
So is 1984, by the way.
Please Ribozym, don’t include me in with those who should not be allowed to live my life the way I choose.
Well since we don’t see things his way, we are obviously wrong and need our intellectual superiors to rescue us from our stupidity before we do something to hurt ourselves. 😉
 
I thought that might be the case. Excellent book. 👍
So is 1984, by the way.

Well since we don’t see things his way, we are obviously wrong and need our intellectual superiors to rescue us from our stupidity before we do something to hurt ourselves. 😉
I do not want communism, I said I wanted a European social democracy.
 
Who are you or anyone else for that matter to allow them or not allow them to live the lives that they choose for themselves. If we let the government do it your way, poor people with a low IQ will be working in sweat houses being totally taken advantage of by “intelligent people”. That is a reason why the USA became independent of England. It wanted to leave the nobility, who thought that they were better or more intelligent than the lower class, behind. they wanted to be free to make their own way and fortune…which is what many did. Even the minorities have been able to succeed so much that we now have a man of color running for president of the United States of America. Minorities have become Supreme Court Judges, CEOs of major companies, and in every industry in the country. If minorities would listen to the likes of Clarence Thomas and Bill Cosby, they wouldn’t be minorities any longer. Heaven help them if people like you get hold of their lives. You’ll just tell them and others that they are too ignorant, that they haven’t the ability to learn…just like slave owners used to tell them…and exploit them for your own selfish desires.
America…especially the minorities who were thought to be too stupid to excel and take care of themselves have come much too far to have to backslide even 30 years.
And I am a conservative, pro life soul.

If we did it your way, who would decide who was too stupid to run their own lives? And on what would the decision be based. I’ll tell you how. Anyone who disagrees with you, is too stupid to make their own life decisions, and should then be forced to do as you say.
I do think that the ruling party should be able to leave positions of power by the will of the governed if they do not like their policies. Furthermore, the managerial state that I want isn’t based on exploiting the weak, but instead it seeks to provide social programs to ameliorate their economic vulnerability.

And I do not see how most people who are working service jobs are contributing. If they are, for example, discovering hits for tyrosine kinase inhibitors, I deem that a worthy contribution to society.
 
I do think that the ruling party should be able to leave positions of power by the will of the governed if they do not like their policies. Furthermore, the managerial state that I want isn’t based on exploiting the weak, but instead it seeks to provide social programs to ameliorate their economic vulnerability.

And I do not see how most people who are working service jobs are contributing. If they are, for example, discovering hits for tyrosine kinase inhibitors, I deem that a worthy contribution to society.
And where would we be without garbage men? In heaps of garbage like the 3rd world countries. Ever been to any? Where would we be without stock boys in stores? Without products on shelves to buy. Where would we be without bus or taxi drivers? Walking miles to school and grocery stores and back? Where would we be without ditch diggers? Up to our ears in water that has no way to flow in an organized way that keeps our home and property safe. Where would we be without store clerks…unable to buy items. Where would we be without delivery drivers…without our bought items that you will answer the previous question with the words “order them”. Where would we be without people who break their backs in farming if they have no high priced machinery? Without fruit and vegetable and bread to eat. Where would we be without nursing assistants…over flowing disease ridden waste from patients in hospitals or nursing homes.

The truth is, there are no such things as menial jobs. Every occupation except that of a bum who believes that the world owes him something because he can use big words…but refuses to earn a living…is a worth while job…unless it consists of murdering someone for pay.

This is why I am convinced that you are young and know nothing of the world. You fool yourself because you read books and speak with what seems to be an educated vocabulary. But in all actuality, you know nothing about life. All you do is scoff at it and all those who are actually living real lives. I feel sorry for you because you are so bitter, and have so much unwarranted pride that you cannot live. To protect your sense of pride, you refuse to earn your own way by actually being employed. But actually you know that you have nothing to be proud of yourself for, for you do nothing to contribute. All your last post indicated is that you have no respect for those of us who do. You deem anything we do as unworthy unless it is some magnificent invention of something. My jobs have all been worthy, and I am a mother…which is one of the 3 most worthy jobs in the world. The other two are a father and a priest.
 
I do think that the ruling party should be able to leave positions of power by the will of the governed if they do not like their policies. Furthermore, the managerial state that I want isn’t based on exploiting the weak, but instead it seeks to provide social programs to ameliorate their economic vulnerability.
Unless, of course, the ruling party declares that the will of the governed is irrelevant. After all, the ruling party should have the moral authority to override the will of the people when the people are so obviously unable to act in their own best interests.
And I do not see how most people who are working service jobs are contributing. If they are, for example, discovering hits for tyrosine kinase inhibitors, I deem that a worthy contribution to society.
I’m sure the ruling class in your managerial utopia would agree to keep a small contingent of service workers around to pick up after the valued contributors- after all, those making “worthy contributions” shouldn’t be bothered with menial tasks, better to leaves those to the ones who fall on the other side of the bell curve. As for the rest, well- it would be unkind to allow them to continue on with their dismal little lives.

After all, everyone in your ideal society would be equal, but we all know that some people would be more equal than others, right?
 
Unless, of course, the ruling party declares that the will of the governed is irrelevant. After all, the ruling party should have the moral authority to override the will of the people when the people are so obviously unable to act in their own best interests.

I’m sure the ruling class in your managerial utopia would agree to keep a small contingent of service workers around to pick up after the valued contributors- after all, those making “worthy contributions” shouldn’t be bothered with menial tasks, better to leaves those to the ones who fall on the other side of the bell curve. As for the rest, well- it would be unkind to allow them to continue on with their dismal little lives.

After all, everyone in your ideal society would be equal, but we all know that some people would be more equal than others, right?
Maybe this managerial scheme would not work, although I thought it would be a good idea. I just feel disappointed that I could not relieve human suffering in the way that Soros and Gates can. So many problems in the world… it just seems so overwhelming for one person (even if they were a person with George Soros’ resources) to deal with effectively. It just leaves me dejected.
 
Maybe this managerial scheme would not work, although I thought it would be a good idea. I just feel disappointed that I could not relieve human suffering in the say that Soros and Gates can. So many problems in the world… it just seems so overwhelming for one person (even if they were a person with George Soros’ resources) to deal with effectively. It just leaves me dejected.
That is the most humane thing I have read in your writings on this and other threads. Way to go, Ribozym, way to go. I am proud of you for admitting this. Utopia is always something that looks good on paper, but in reality, it is only a means of desolation for man. Thank you for this post. My hope is restored.

I mean none of the above paragraph to be condescending in any way. I am totally sincere. You are in my prayers.
 
That is the most humane thing I have read in your writings on this and other threads. Way to go, Ribozym, way to go. I am proud of you for admitting this. Utopia is always something that looks good on paper, but in reality, it is only a means of desolation for man. Thank you for this post. My hope is restored.

I mean none of the above paragraph to be condescending in any way. I am totally sincere. You are in my prayers.
I do not know what I want to be, I thought recently that working in a think tank would put me in an adequate position to protect the vulnerable as I was inspired by this video:

cbpp.org/video.htm

I also admire the work of the Economic Policy Institute and the Brookings Institution too. Maybe my love for the managerial state is based on my adulation of left-wing think tanks.
 
I do not know what I want to be, I thought recently that working in a think tank would put me in an adequate position to protect the vulnerable as I was inspired by this video:

cbpp.org/video.htm

I also admire the work of the Economic Policy Institute and the Brookings Institution too. Maybe my love for the managerial state is based on my adulation of left-wing think tanks.
Here is a sample of some well known quotes from 3 historical figures who have expressed some of your same views.

I’m not posting these to be divisive, I just think it might help you to realize how some of the positions you espouse have played out in history…

Don’t try to figure out who I am quoting just yet-I’ll post their names in a little while. Just read through them and compare them to some of the things you have said…
I think you’ll really like leader #3…

Leader 1:

“There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word ‘council’ must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man.”

“Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.”

“The spark of a genius exists in the brain of the truly creative man from the hour of his birth. True genius is always inborn and never cultivated, let alone learned.”

“For there is one thing we must never forget… the majority can never replace the man. And no more than a hundred empty heads make one wise man will an heroic decision arise from a hundred cowards.”

Leader 2:

"It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission and welds them into unity. "

"The keystone of (our) doctrine is its conception of the State, of its essence, its functions, and its aims. For (us) the State is absolute, individuals and groups relative. "

And I saved the best for last- I think you’ll really like these…

Leader #3

"Capitalists are no more capable of self-sacrifice than a man is capable of lifting himself up by his own bootstraps. "

"Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners. "

"If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years. "

"It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed. "

"No amount of political freedom will satisfy the hungry masses. "

"There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. "
 
I do not know what I want to be, I thought recently that working in a think tank would put me in an adequate position to protect the vulnerable as I was inspired by this video:

cbpp.org/video.htm

I also admire the work of the Economic Policy Institute and the Brookings Institution too. Maybe my love for the managerial state is based on my faith in left-wing think tanks.
I would say that this may be correct. An example of this is research on the topics of what these left wing think tanks do…not just what they say. this could belong on another tank, but I believe it important to be said right now. Many people…I won’t speak names…say that they are for civil rights, and for pulling people in the African American community out of the “ghetto”. But if you truly listen to what they say behind the charisma with which they speak, you can realize that what they say is WRONG!!! That it takes a community full of intelligent and bright individuals that are capable of going extremely far in their lives to be whatever they want to be, and it pulls them into mode of thought that takes that ambition away. It makes them feel like victims who can not pull themselves out of the cycle of poverty. It makes them believe that there needs to be more government programs, that the government needs to pour out more money to them.
Yet, what has this done for the poor inner city people of America? It has kept them dependent on government programs who penalize their efforts to rise above poverty. It keeps them unemployed, becuase they are denied most benefits if they make more than $250 per month. When you are sick, or when your children are hungry, or when you are in need of the shelter that the government is providing for you at the moment, and the government tells you that if you get a job making $250 per month you will lose all of that, you weigh everything, and you refuse to get a job. After all, your children are hungry, need shelter and you have medical problems that you need taken care of. And you won’t be able to find a good job immediatly to pay for all of those things, so you need help. Only, with a job, even one that won’t pay enough to cover all of your bills, you will lose all benefits.
The politicians and activists say that they care about the poor, inner city people. But they do nothing to fix the department of education. The one thing that they have done is lower the standards for these kids, so that the kids feel better about themselves. But what does lowering the standards do for these kids in reality? It sends them into the world totally unprepared to get gainful employment, because they cannot even speak or write well.
Bill Cosby is a good person to listen to when he talks to inner city kids. He tells them to go to school, learn all they can…and use resources to learn even more than they teach in school. He tells them to make good choices so that they will not fall into dependence (by getting pregnant as a teenager), or into addictions. Stay out of trouble. He tells them to create goals for themselves, and then map out what has to be done in order to reach those goals. And he tells them to do those things. He tells them essentially to forget that they are black men, and see themselves as MEN. The color of a persons skin should not stop him from reaching his high goals. He tells them to take responsibility of their lives, and stop depending on the government to take care of them.
He gives them hope, because he believes in them.
The liberal activists hate Bill Cosby. The reason is that they need poor inner city people to stay dependent on the government, because if they succeed in life, the activists will stop getting rich on their poverty. If they succeed, there will be no more need for the activists. It is a matter of job security for themselves…on the backs of their followers.

My point is, do the research. You have to look farther than what they are saying. Look at what they are doing, and then look with a magnifying glass at what the outcome of their actions are. Jesus talks about knowing a tree from its fruit. It applies in this as well.

I believe that the Church should take care of social problems in the world. For the Church doesn’t have anything to gain or lose by making people well in mind, body and soul. They are just wanting to lead people to Christ, and treat all people with the dignity of life.

I am rambling on again. Maybe someone else can do a better job than myself, as I tend to ramble.
May Christ Jesus bless you, Ribozym, with an awareness of TRUTH and discernment. You are still in my prayers.
 
I know who said those quotes given I could simply use a search engine.

Also, some of my views were inspired by Charles Murray. BTW, he isn’t a liberal as he works at the American Enterprise Institute (often thought as a neoconservative think tank). Read what he says here:

opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009531
Now suppose the boy sitting behind her is getting a D, but his IQ is a bit below 100, at the 49th percentile.
We can hope to raise his grade. But teaching him more vocabulary words or drilling him on the parts of speech will not open up new vistas for him. It is not within his power to learn to follow an exposition written beyond a limited level of complexity, any more than it is within my power to follow a proof in the American Journal of Mathematics. In both cases, the problem is not that we have not been taught enough, but that we are not smart enough.
Now take the girl sitting across the aisle who is getting an F. She is at the 20th percentile of intelligence, which means she has an IQ of 88. If the grading is honest, it may not be possible to do more than give her an E for effort. Even if she is taught to read every bit as well as her intelligence permits, she still will be able to comprehend only simple written material. It is a good thing that she becomes functionally literate, and it will have an effect on the range of jobs she can hold. But still she will be confined to jobs that require minimal reading skills. She is just not smart enough to do more than that.
How about raising intelligence? It would be nice if we knew how, but we do not. It has been shown that some intensive interventions temporarily raise IQ scores by amounts ranging up to seven or eight points. Investigated psychometrically, these increases are a mix of test effects and increases in the underlying general factor of intellectual ability–“g.” In any case, the increases fade to insignificance within a few years after the intervention. Richard Herrnstein and I reviewed the technical literature on this topic in “The Bell Curve” (1994), and studies since then have told the same story.
 
One thing that has always seemed strange to me is how dog-eat-dog life seems to be in the US, compared to the rest of the developed world.

From an outsider’s perspective, it seems to be that USA doesn’t have the same attitudes as the rest of the developed Christian world when it comes to looking after its own citizens. Something which I thought would have been a fairly Christian thing to do.

There was absolute shock in Europe as to how badly things went after hurricane Katrina. That sheer poverty in which people lived, and the fact that it was majority poor blacks that were left homeless was also widely reported. “Why don’t they look after their own people?”…is what many in Europe were saying.
  • Things like public health care (completely free), and an essentially free university education as standard in pretty much all of Europe. It’s not seen as something “given to us”, but more as “a right”. And yet in the US this is unlikely to happen.
People seem obsessed with paying too much tax, and how much it is all going to cost, how it may affect the economy.

And I often read posts here on the Catholic answers forum where people seem petrified that somebody else may get something for nothing, without “working for it”.

I have two questions:
  1. Why is America like this?
  2. How do Catholic Americans feel about how the average American citizen is looked after when things don’t go so well (those who are broke, sick, unemployed etc).
I don’t know. Maybe they are more interested in meddling in the internal affairs of other countries and telling everyone else how to live instead of taking care of their own problems?
 
I know who said those quotes given I could simply use a search engine.
I knew you could easily google them- I just wanted you to take the quotes at face value first.
In any event, you may want to seriously consider what differentiates your political and social aspirations from those of Hitler, Mussolini, or Lenin.
Also, some of my views were inspired by Charles Murray. BTW, he isn’t a liberal as he works at the American Enterprise Institute (often thought as a neoconservative think tank). Read what he says here:
Not sure where you’re going with this.

I agree that our society has placed an inordinate emphasis on formal education over learning trades and marketable skills- to the point that children are taught to measure their self-worth almost exclusively by their grades or IQ scores. Some of your comments have even reflected this- didn’t you disparage the value of menial laborers not too long ago?

Of course, everyone has limited talents, but there is a difference between helping an individual to aspire to their fullest potential, even when their fullest potential might be to perform menial tasks, and telling a person that they have limited potential, and relegating them to a menial task.

Wouldn’t you agree that individuals should be free to aspire toward their own goals-even if everyone else believes they lack prerequisite talent, ability, or intelligence? This country is full of stories about people who worked hard and overcame their limitations.

What would you say if I told you that your 5th grade aptitude tests prohibit you from pursuing a career in political science?
 
I don’t know. Maybe they are more interested in meddling in the internal affairs of other countries and telling everyone else how to live instead of taking care of their own problems?
he he he.
 
I’ve lived in the US twice in my life and always made it my business never to comment on internal US politics (or external politics for that matter) and I’ve done the same on message boards over the years, including here.
Why not? This is cyberspace. If you can’t comment here where can you comment? I always thought American’s valued “free speech”. I didn’t certainly didn’t realise Americans were so sensitive. Having said that **most **of the people on this board have been able to discuss these issues without getting offended.

My experience of Germany/Germans is that open debate is something to be valued. The level of “television debate” is certainly superior to most other countries. Maybe you are the exception??
 
Of course, everyone has limited talents, but there is a difference between helping an individual to aspire to their fullest potential, even when their fullest potential might be to perform menial tasks, and telling a person that they have limited potential, and relegating them to a menial task.
I do not see any difference between the two. And will that person earn enough on their own for health care, housing, food, and water? If not, the welfare state must help them.
 
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