Calling in sick to work when you're not sick is no different from murdering 6 million people? Catholics, Protestants, Muslims.. what say you?

[manualman]

Publisher, I HAVE learned just enough to avoid all-encompassing statements. That’s why I started my post with “Some” protestants.

You may not know them, but I’ve lived with them in depth for YEARS during college. They DO get uncomfortable when you repeat their logic as “sin is irrelevant”, but many DO believe that grace through faith eradicates the guilt of all believers so that NO sin can be mortal after one is “saved.” They call it “assurance of salvation”, but the way they explain it inherently requires that one’s sins after being saved don’t matter. In this theology, the sins are ‘covered’ by the perfect righteousness of Christ, not actually scrubbed out of us via Grace.

You are correct to point out that such thinking is NOT universal in protestantism.

 

[Publisher]

Well then you must not know enough of them… It didn’t take me long to find one that didn’t believe this… as a kid she was raised in the same house as me.

SD

As Catholics are so fond of saying…“Perhaps they weren’t adequately catechized.”

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, I HAVE learned just enough to avoid all-encompassing statements. That’s why I started my post with “Some” protestants.

You may not know them, but I’ve lived with them in depth for YEARS during college. They DO get uncomfortable when you repeat their logic as “sin is irrelevant”, but many DO believe that grace through faith eradicates the guilt of all believers so that NO sin can be mortal after one is “saved.” They call it “assurance of salvation”, but the way they explain it inherently requires that one’s sins after being saved don’t matter. In this theology, the sins are ‘covered’ by the perfect righteousness of Christ, not actually scrubbed out of us via Grace.

You are correct to point out that such thinking is NOT universal in protestantism.

We do move in different circles no doubt…“they” may get uncomfortable “sin” after redemption does matter…it impacts our sanctification…that “some Protestants” claim it doesn’t matter doesn’t necessarily mean they grasp their own theology no more than Catholics can be brought to task because some Catholics think the only thing they have to do is go to confession and they can do what they want…confession takes care of all of it…if “some” Protestants have difficulty conveying what it is they believe in “Catholic speak”…just think how difficult it is for Catholics to grasp “Protestant speak”.

I have no doubt at all that the gist of what you are saying was made by some “poorly catechized” Calvinist Protestants…this is not an indictment against you…it is mean to be an explanation…we are discussing faith issues that “loose something in the translation” between Arminians and Calvinists…just think how difficult it is to “translate” to Catholic.

Faith in Christ does eradicate our sin and we are “cleansed from all unrighteousness”… we are filled with the Holy Spirit to live a godly life…the “new man” does not “live in sin”…if he does…he is in peril…both Arminians and Calvinists believe that…the “degree” that grace is applied is what is misunderstood between our different traditions…and what exactly the Work of Christ has done for us…no wonder we speak past one another at times…we come from different starting points and use different expressions that may be difficult to explain to one another.

 

[SD_Catholic]

As Catholics are so fond of saying…“Perhaps they weren’t adequately catechized.”

You just aint a kiddin’… it’s obvious by their misunderstandings of Church teachings… but then again neither was I… but logic and common sense tell me sins aren’t all equal

SD

 

[manualman]

I’ll freely admit that I couldn’t explain the difference betweena Calvinist and an Arminian (though I learned the hard way that they are different than Armenians! ). Thing is that in protestantism, there is no body with interpreting authority, right? Catholicism has at least our share of chaos and ignorance in the ranks, but at least there is a hierachy that can issue clarifications and resolve disputes (at least when an answer is known).

In protestantism, on the other hand, all you need is a group of people with their own interpretation of Scripture and they aren’t “wrong” by protestant terms, they are just yet another protestant denomination. Right?

In current evangelical circles, the term “assurance of salvation” has a very specific and literal meaning. If you’ve had the ‘born again’ experience, you are are absolutely, positively going to heaven, regardless of what happens or what you DO after that experience. I can’t tell you how many times that has been ‘explained’ to me by these folks.

 

[jastor]

You just aint a kiddin’… it’s obvious by their misunderstandings of Church teachings… but then again neither was I… but logic and common sense tell me sins aren’t all equal

SD

Only God knows if they are equal.
So all your common sense wont work.

Where in the bible does it give weight of sin?

I think yellow bird and her friend are fighting over a issue only the Almighty can answer, not us sinners.

 

[Publisher]

I’ll freely admit that I couldn’t explain the difference betweena Calvinist and an Arminian (though I learned the hard way that they are different than Armenians! ). Thing is that in protestantism, there is no body with interpreting authority, right? Catholicism has at least our share of chaos and ignorance in the ranks, but at least there is a hierachy that can issue clarifications and resolve disputes (at least when an answer is known).

In protestantism, on the other hand, all you need is a group of people with their own interpretation of Scripture and they aren’t “wrong” by protestant terms, they are just yet another protestant denomination. Right?

In current evangelical circles, the term “assurance of salvation” has a very specific and literal meaning. If you’ve had the ‘born again’ experience, you are are absolutely, positively going to heaven, regardless of what happens or what you DO after that experience. I can’t tell you how many times that has been ‘explained’ to me by these folks.

Perhpas in some certain Calvinistic groups…you won’t find this idea in the “holiness/pentacostal” groups…nor in most of the “mainline groups”…it does matter most definitely what one does after our lives are “hidden in Christ”…it is a process of sanctifcation…of becoming like him…of “putting off the old man” of sin…

I too have sat with them trying to “explain” it to me…it boggles my mind…Christians don’t live in sin, we are not slaves to sin BUT if we sin we have an Advocate with the Father…the man Jesus…it is against the new nature we take on when we become new creations in Christ…

 

[Mark77]

This is exactly why Jesus never intended for each individual to definitively interpret Sacred Scripture.

Individual interpretations are fine if they eventually lead each person on their path to the fullness of the Truth.

If we let the ‘average Joe’ interpret Holy Scripture, we come up with idiotic statements like “calling in sick to work is the same as murdering 6 million people.”

As the Catechism says “Sin is an offense against God” (CCC 1850). So in the broadest of terms, all sin is bad, but not all sin is equal.

“Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.” (CCC 1854).

“Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.” (CCC 1855).

"For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” (CCC1857)

“Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” (MK 10:19) The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.” (CCC1858).

The Truth of Jesus Christ is pure, perfect and eternal. Most of the time, I do not want to listen to it because it means I must give up some harmful, selfish desire, but it is still true and complete.

We can try to simplify it by saying “all sin is the same” or we can try to dilute it by saying “abortion is permitted to save the life of the mother”. Neither is true!

Why do we always act like the spoiled, bratty 3 year old who throws a tantrum when he can’t get his way?

Common sense tells us that eating a whole bag of Oreo cookies will make us sick.

Common sense tells us that calling in sick to work is not the same as murdering 6 million people.

Common sense tells us that murdering innocent babies is always wrong!

Common sense tells us that Jesus would not have left it up to each individual to define what is right and wrong!

Jesus gave us His Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit through Peter and his Successors, to lead us to the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark

 

[deb1]

Publisher, I HAVE learned just enough to avoid all-encompassing statements. That’s why I started my post with “Some” protestants.

You may not know them, but I’ve lived with them in depth for YEARS during college. They DO get uncomfortable when you repeat their logic as “sin is irrelevant”, but many DO believe that grace through faith eradicates the guilt of all believers so that NO sin can be mortal after one is “saved.” They call it “assurance of salvation”, but the way they explain it inherently requires that one’s sins after being saved don’t matter. In this theology, the sins are ‘covered’ by the perfect righteousness of Christ, not actually scrubbed out of us via Grace.

You are correct to point out that such thinking is NOT universal in protestantism.

I attended a children service at my SIL Baptist Church. The adult leader brought out a drawing of children commiting different bad acts. He said that before being saved, God sees all a child’s sin, but once they are saved(he covered the pictures with tokens) God can not see those same sins. That struck me as very odd.

I grew up Baptist and had never heard anything so strange before.

.

 

[Publisher]

I attended a children service at my SIL Baptist Church. The adult leader brought out a drawing of children commiting different bad acts. He said that before being saved, God sees all a child’s sin, but once they are saved(he covered the pictures with tokens) God can not see those same sins. That struck me as very odd.

I grew up Baptist and had never heard anything so strange before.

.

I’ve heard it many times from my Baptist friends…God 'imputes righteousness" to us…instead of seeing us, He sees Jesus standing before us in our stead…He imputes Jesus righteousness and is “blind” to our sin. My response to them is “God doesn’t pretend we are righteousness. He makes us righteous…not only is the righteousness of Christ ‘imparted’ to us…but it is “imputed” to us as well…the Holy Spirit indwells us and through our good works demonstrates His sanctifying grace at work in us so that we become holy…actually holy…at least as holy as man in our present state can become…to “be like Christ”…God doesn’t pretend…He knows our sin, He knows our hearts…He sees us through love and grace not only 'imputed” to us…but He imparts His Nature to us…we become new creations…it is a blend of both…not one or the other.

 

[LilyM]

John himself distinguishes in scripture between ‘sin which is unto death’ (mortal) and ‘sin which is not unto death’ (venial) - and suggest different approaches to each type. So it is not particularly scriptural to say ‘sin is sin is sin’

 

[deb1]

I’ve heard it many times from my Baptist friends…God 'imputes righteousness" to us…instead of seeing us, He sees Jesus standing before us in our stead…He imputes Jesus righteousness and is “blind” to our sin. My response to them is “God doesn’t pretend we are righteousness. He makes us righteous…not only is the righteousness of Christ ‘imparted’ to us…but it is “imputed” to us as well…the Holy Spirit indwells us and through our good works demonstrates His sanctifying grace at work in us so that we become holy…actually holy…at least as holy as man in our present state can become…to “be like Christ”…God doesn’t pretend…He knows our sin, He knows our hearts…He sees us through love and grace not only 'imputed” to us…but He imparts His Nature to us…we become new creations…it is a blend of both…not one or the other.

Hey, you almost sound Catholic.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

…I’m not asking if God could forgive all of those things… of course the answer is yes.

In Islam , there are major & minor sins. The most major sin is to take deity besides God/ to associate partner with Him. If one dies without repentance , then only punishment is eternal fire.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I am Catholic. My friend is Protestant. We’re talking about people who do horrible things… like abortion providers and the Nazis who murdered all those people and piled them in heaps like it was no big deal. She said that while those things are certainly terrible, the sins of those men are NO DIFFERENT from the sins she and I commit. So I gave her the example of gossip… let’s say that’s the sin I struggle with most. Is that sin the same as performing abortions or torturing and murdering people? She says yes. No different.

She believes:

sin = sin, therefore in God’s eyes: calling in sick to work when you’re not = sex before marriage = greed = raping a child = killing 6 million Jews. No difference.

I’m not asking if God could forgive all of those things… of course the answer is yes. I’m asking if YOU believe all sin is the same?

What say you?

Lets see what Our Lord had to say,"Our Lord said to Pilate (John 19:11): ‘He that hath delivered me to thee, hath the greater sin,’ and yet it is evident that Pilate was guilty of some sin. Therefore one sin is greater than another.

 

[mmmcounts]

This link should deal with the issue pretty well. scriptureandmusic.com/Topics/Text_Files/Sin_Degrees_Commentary.pdf

And this is my contribution. As far as the question “Who deserves hell?” goes, it is anyone who has sinned. This is expressed in the statement that anyone who breaks the law in even one point has broken the whole law.

However, there are degrees of punishment for people who go to hell. They are judged by a righteous and just judge, and the ones who commit a greater number of more heinous sins will be punished accordingly. People who commit less heinous sins will also be punished accordingly. Both types of people go to hell, but they are punished accordingly.

For people who go to heaven, Protestants continue to believe there are degrees of sin in terms of a gradient of severity. They do not, however, create a dichotomy where mortal sin causes you to lose your salvation and venial sins (unless there’s a lot of them) do not. It is certainly quite possible for a Protestant to recognize the gradient without being forced to agree to the dichotomy, and that is what your Protestant friend probably hasn’t realized.

In order to facilitate the discussion with your friend a little more, this link might be useful.
theopedia.com/Nicolaitans
If you use this, though, you have to provide this link as well.
theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

The purpose of the first link is to assist your friend in avoiding heresy. The second link provides information about the best Protestant route for doing so. I do not want you to misuse the first link by supporting the notion that Protestantism is inherently heretical. This must be avoided. Your current pope even says so.

Hope that gives you enough to play with.

 

[yellowbird]

Thanks so much for all of your replies, they were very helpful, especially the Protestant ones who tried to explain her viewpoint.

Truth be told, the discussion with my friend really rattled me because she was basically sayaing that in God’s eyes, I am no different than a Nazi guard. I just can’t wrap my brain around that. I try to be a good person… I try to obey… and when I fail, I feel guilty and I ask for His forgiveness. I realize my hope of Heaven is only through the grace of God in Christ Jesus, but I do believe that God is, for the most part, pleased with me. And I can’t imgine he felt the same about the Nazis… so how could we be similar at all? Aren’t we all hoping to hear, “Well done, my good and faithful servant?”

I just don’t get it.

This is another thing I don’t understand: At youth group, her daughter (13) was asked: Are you a Christian? Her daughter said, “Yes.” When asked how she knew she was a Christian, her daughter said, “Well, I love Jesus… I believe in Him… and I try to do what’s right.” They said that was the WRONG answer. The “trying to do what’s right” apparently killed it for her.

Huh? Since when is trying to do what’s right something a Christian SHOULDN’T do?

My Protestant friends… what say you?

 

[SD_Catholic]

Only God knows if they are equal.
So all your common sense wont work.

Where in the bible does it give weight of sin?

Well for one the Church says so… and my common sense happens to agree with her.

For Biblical references please refer to some of the earlier posts… there is plenty of info in the Bible that can lead to logical reasoning that various sins hold different weights of sinfullness… God does know and wanted us to know… so he revealed it through his written word and his Church.

SD

 

[deb1]

This is another thing I don’t understand: At youth group, her daughter (13) was asked: Are you a Christian? Her daughter said, “Yes.” When asked how she knew she was a Christian, her daughter said, “Well, I love Jesus… I believe in Him… and I try to do what’s right.” They said that was the WRONG answer. The “trying to do what’s right” apparently killed it for her.

Huh? Since when is trying to do what’s right something a Christian SHOULDN’T do?

My Protestant friends… what say you?

I used to be a Protestant so I guess I can answer.

This tactic used to annoy me when I was a Protestant and it angers me now.

Basically some Protestants believe that they can judge who is a ‘real’ Christian and who is not. They base this on their belief that if someone is ‘actually’ a Christian then they won’t have to try and do good, the Holy Spirit will automatically keep them from doing big sins(like a robot) So, if you try to do good you aren’t a ‘real’ Christian. These types of Protestant(not the majority but a vocal minority) believe in giving other Christians quizzes to ferret out those that they deem not ‘real’ Christians. If you say you answer in a way that they decide is incorrect then they will witness to you.

Because the young lady referred to trying to do good, they saw her as depending on her own ability and not Christ’s.

Such Protestants don’t just annoy Catholics but do tend to be judgemental of ALL Christians.

 

[kalt]

All sin IS NOT the same. Calling in sick to work when you are not, is dishonest, but you do not deprieve another being of it’s life. MURDER must be the ultimate sin.

Please view the *You Tube *video *Animals You Eat: Bad Meat! *and explain to me how Catholics can be a part of this. This planet and all creatures in it are gifts from God. When we abuse animals, when we partake in pollution, when we degrade the planet/environment, we disrespect God. My Catholic Church speaks of Respect for Life–but we must respect ALL of life, ALL of God’s gifts, ALL of God’s creation. Catholics must stand up for the Repect of ALL of life, ALL that God has created–we are the STEWARDS of the planet. Watch this video and you will not feel like a steward–you will feel the tarnish, you will feel God’s disapproval.

And what about those poor tubers we rip from the ground prematurely. They aren’t dead yet, but we rip them up and sell them. It’s horrible.

I like how vegans get on everyone’s back for eating meat, but they think nothing of killing vegetables. They say, “Well, we have to eat something.” If they’re all about respecting life, then life is life. ALL life, is all life. Correct?

I didn’t look at your link, but will say that mistreating animals is wrong. There’s nothing wrong with eating meat, though.

Jesus served fish, so I figure he’s OK with at least that.

 

[Marfran]

Kalt: Your comments about tubbers make no sense at all. Plants do not have a central nervous system. You must view the video to comment, or the comments can not correlate to the topic. We must respect ALL of life. God designed this planet perfectly–there is a perfect balance that we humans disrupt, malign, abuse and tarnish. Please view the video–I would appreciate your well thought out response to it. I don’t think this is what God intended for our planet, for us. The behavior in this video is disrespectful to God–I think it is** Sin **with a capital S. Kalt, please view the video and and I would love to hear your reaction and commentary on if you think this IS God’s way.

P.S. You say that you think it is wrong to abuse animals, but that it is OK to eat meat. Please view the video and explain how you can eat meat from animals that are abused. The vast majority of meat, dairy, and eggs are produced with great suffering. Is that OK? There are small farms where animals are free range and live a more natural existence, and those products can be bought in a store (e.g. your local co-op or a progressive market like Whole Foods). Is this all irrelevant to God? If you see the video, tell me how you think God feels about what we are allowing to happen by looking the other way and pretending that this is not happening?