Once again, Carl, spot on.
Jon
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Jon
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
I do not know much of how Calvin and Zwingli or even Wesley for that matter stood on quite a lot of things. As for Martin Luther I have come to the conclusion That in his heart he was Catholic till the day he died. Not said to offend our Lutheran Friends here. It is my beleif that the schism of with the Lutherans was more from what those close to Luther were saying and doing than what Luther himself said and did. Most of Luther’s objection were address at the the Council of Trent and if I am correct the council found in what could be seen in Luther’s Favor. It is a shame that it took war and blood shed for Christ Church to listen to the man.
Exactly how much of what was going on was the Pope aware of is up for debate I have a feeling that he may have been kept in the dark about quite a bit. Keep in mind that the internet was not around then so information traveled at a much slow pace.
I also believe that the want for power by the German Princes that came to embrace Luther and there people that came to be close associate of his had quite a negative influence on him and as time continued, they long with hurt feeling of being betrayed by the Church he loved took him to say and right thing that he may not have other wise done. ( Just my opinion. I could be wrong) The Problem is the farther you get from the (again not to offend the non Catholic here) the Catholic Church the easier it is to deny many truths and teach other things. That is why if you Look at those Christian communities that were founded around 500 years ago many and most still hold to the really presence in the Eucharist and follow a liturgical form of services and do not make bitter false statements about Catholics. Were as those that were founded in the last 150 years to 250 years or more recent very little can be found and they are quite bitter about the Catholic Church and really see Lutherans and Anglicans and such as catholic lite.
I have met a lot of Lutherans for example that the only reason they are not Catholic is that they were brought up Lutheran and to Change could cause undo family stress or because of being Lutheran there whole life there remains the tiny shred of doubt about the Catholic Church. Or there are those that were Catholic but do to a bad decision married, divorced, and have remarried so they have chose to become Lutheran as they cannot give up being in full commion with a Christian community.
Now I guess I should address the OP as for Devotion to the Blessed Mother. I do not understand not having some sort of devotion to Her. And I can sit and listen to those have serious issues with the Church without getting upset, until they start on Devotions to Mary. I then tend to lose my cool.
Exactly how much of what was going on was the Pope aware of is up for debate I have a feeling that he may have been kept in the dark about quite a bit. Keep in mind that the internet was not around then so information traveled at a much slow pace.
I also believe that the want for power by the German Princes that came to embrace Luther and there people that came to be close associate of his had quite a negative influence on him and as time continued, they long with hurt feeling of being betrayed by the Church he loved took him to say and right thing that he may not have other wise done. ( Just my opinion. I could be wrong) The Problem is the farther you get from the (again not to offend the non Catholic here) the Catholic Church the easier it is to deny many truths and teach other things. That is why if you Look at those Christian communities that were founded around 500 years ago many and most still hold to the really presence in the Eucharist and follow a liturgical form of services and do not make bitter false statements about Catholics. Were as those that were founded in the last 150 years to 250 years or more recent very little can be found and they are quite bitter about the Catholic Church and really see Lutherans and Anglicans and such as catholic lite.
I have met a lot of Lutherans for example that the only reason they are not Catholic is that they were brought up Lutheran and to Change could cause undo family stress or because of being Lutheran there whole life there remains the tiny shred of doubt about the Catholic Church. Or there are those that were Catholic but do to a bad decision married, divorced, and have remarried so they have chose to become Lutheran as they cannot give up being in full commion with a Christian community.
Now I guess I should address the OP as for Devotion to the Blessed Mother. I do not understand not having some sort of devotion to Her. And I can sit and listen to those have serious issues with the Church without getting upset, until they start on Devotions to Mary. I then tend to lose my cool.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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HI Jon
Hope today finds you well. I glad you address the post from johndeerefan. you did it in a much more charitable manor than I could have.
Peace
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Mariology (the doctrine of Mary) is a sub-set of Christology. Marian devotion flows from devotion to Christ.
Both actually are really about who JESUS is.
You believe what you want to believe. I’ll believe our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ and His holy Word.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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Amen
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ScottishColleen
Guest
Thank you. I didn’t have time to read the entire thread yet. Calvin and Zwingli believed that Mary was a sinner in need of a saviour just as we are AND held to her perpetual virginity. There are still Calvinists that believe this way; my husband is one of them. I’m a bit more on the fence as I see the plausibility for both side, but lack of evidence that either is absolutely correct. (before you stone me, this is a big step from where I stood years ago where I did not believe there was any plausibility for perpetual virginity)
And peace to you, Scott.HI Jon
Hope today finds you well. I glad you address the post from johndeerefan. you did it in a much more charitable manor than I could have.
Peace
The day finds me quite well, as I hope it does you.
I have a completely different mindset about Marion devotion than some other “Protestants”, in that it is such an old practice, both east and west, and seems to bring comfort to so many, and I find no contradiction to it in scripture or the confessions, except for intercessory prayer. And even that I’m not willing to condemn. But clearly a disagreement over what type of emphasis each communion places on St. Mary should not be a cause of condemnation or hurtful speech. It doesn’t add to attempts at unity.
Jon
You won’t be stoned by me, since I’m not one without sin.
While we may differ in our views regarding her, I think we can agree that, 1) she is a wonderful, exceptional example of obedience and dedication to Christ, 2) that our children should know about her for this reason, not just during Christmas, and 3) we should respect Catholic devotion to her as a sign of their faith in Christ.Jon
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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The peace of our Lord be with you also.
You are very correct in your statements. I just get a little defensiveness, as Catholics are the minority in my family and even though they do it in jest, there are those in the family that like to make statements much like the ones he did. I guess my skin has worn thin on that subject and I tend to get defensiveness of our Blessed Mother.
I understand, Scott. I don’t see where statements like the ones made by johndeerfan show a Christ-like attitude.
When something is said in jest, but the words hurts another, it is no longer a jest. I am happy my words here were hwlpful to you.
Jon
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ScottishColleen
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Yes, we agree and my husband has helped me understand this better. One of our oldest friends has told me how “Mother Mary is watching over me”. Though we slightly differ in our views, I understand where he is coming from and cannot totally disagree (if that makes sense…I don’t know how “aware” the saints are of us in the presence of the Lord, but Scripture does state they pray for us in general).You won’t be stoned by me, since I’m not one without sin.
Jon
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rinnie
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I think that the more we understand and discuss Mary on this site the more informed people get. I think that just because she was not mentioned alot in the bible she was not discussed enough. I think the big reason the CC was more devoted to her because it had alot to do with tradition. And what has happend through the years is that she was never questioned before like today. It was just a teaching that has been believed by all until later in years. But I have seen a big change just in the last 2 years of more and more Christians turning to her.
I have also seen that like you stated that intercession is a big part of Catholic faith, and other protestants are beginning to see why. I see it as a good thing.
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PerryJ
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I believe that perhaps it is that Catholics are not just bound by the Bible. As we believe in Apostolic succession we can read the early Church Fathers that met and wrote about Mary. As a former Protestant I can attest to the fact that to be Protestant one has to reject a very significant amount of historical records. Sola Scriptura is like a self fulfilling prophecy. If one reads the Bible from just a personal perspective one will find the answers one wants. If one reads the people taught by Peter, Paul etc it is very clear from day one that Mary was held to be a virgin and that she did not have other children.
Just as the Catholic Church was defined by Ignatius in the year 107 and the Bible wasn’t defined for Catholics until after the persecutions subsided, for Protestants add another 1,200 years, we have scores of support for our beliefs. Every ealry Church Father taught by the Apostles support the Catholic view of Mary. Just as our mass is the same today as it was in the year 33 AD our teachings are essentially the same.
Sadly, Luther was a tormented man. He was fearful, bigoted and self centered. Unfortunatley as a Protestant I was given a herioic image of this poor soul. If one reads his own writings one will find a man that is less than heroic. He founded his religion by reading Romans 1:17 backwards. His fear of God resulted in him attending confession constantly. He never felt that God forgave him and would often abuse himself for penance. (Even during this day his penance was excessive.)
This poor soul only became a Priest because his terrorfying fear of a thunderstorm. He prayed to St Anne that if he lived he would become a preist. His own father on the day he became a preist stated that the Devil had to have had something to do with it.
He never professed anything against the Church about indulgences even though he went to Rome several times. He rejected indulgences, that were being used to build a Church, when the Church declared his teachings to be in error. The German Princes then used him as a pawn in revolting against the Church. It was a political situation much more than a rejection of the Church. By this time Christendom was not ruled by the Church and Muslims were invading most of Europe.
Luther was anti-semtic, supported the murder of 100,000 of his own followers and supported the Muslims butchering of Catholics for years. It was only when the Muslims began to press close to Germany that he supported Christians protecting themselves.
This poor soul needs to be prayed for as his life was scandalous and depraved. Please read his own writings. They can be found in books and on-line. It will prove that my statements are not in error. Pray for this poor man’s soul.
Just as the Catholic Church was defined by Ignatius in the year 107 and the Bible wasn’t defined for Catholics until after the persecutions subsided, for Protestants add another 1,200 years, we have scores of support for our beliefs. Every ealry Church Father taught by the Apostles support the Catholic view of Mary. Just as our mass is the same today as it was in the year 33 AD our teachings are essentially the same.
Sadly, Luther was a tormented man. He was fearful, bigoted and self centered. Unfortunatley as a Protestant I was given a herioic image of this poor soul. If one reads his own writings one will find a man that is less than heroic. He founded his religion by reading Romans 1:17 backwards. His fear of God resulted in him attending confession constantly. He never felt that God forgave him and would often abuse himself for penance. (Even during this day his penance was excessive.)
This poor soul only became a Priest because his terrorfying fear of a thunderstorm. He prayed to St Anne that if he lived he would become a preist. His own father on the day he became a preist stated that the Devil had to have had something to do with it.
He never professed anything against the Church about indulgences even though he went to Rome several times. He rejected indulgences, that were being used to build a Church, when the Church declared his teachings to be in error. The German Princes then used him as a pawn in revolting against the Church. It was a political situation much more than a rejection of the Church. By this time Christendom was not ruled by the Church and Muslims were invading most of Europe.
Luther was anti-semtic, supported the murder of 100,000 of his own followers and supported the Muslims butchering of Catholics for years. It was only when the Muslims began to press close to Germany that he supported Christians protecting themselves.
This poor soul needs to be prayed for as his life was scandalous and depraved. Please read his own writings. They can be found in books and on-line. It will prove that my statements are not in error. Pray for this poor man’s soul.
And what on earth does this have to do with the OP’s question? 
You are correct, Luther was not heroic, neither was Leo X, or Tetzel.
ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews%20(Web).htm
Jon
So do we.
Don’t know what brand of Protestant you were, we don’t.
This isn’t what sola scriptura means. You certainly weren’t Lutheran.
Coming up, you will bash Luther, even though he agreed with you here.
So did Luther, for the most part, but here it comes.
Site your source for this.
And you have read Luther’s Works? or Father O’Hare?
You are correct, Luther was not heroic, neither was Leo X, or Tetzel.
Sort of like Paul on the road to Damascus? Comparing the event, not the men, I’m not willing to limit how God calls men to His service, as you seem to be. His own father wanted him to be a lawyer, and I personally would not use him as a reliable source in determining the efforts of God or the devil.
The 95 Theses, October 31, 1517, long before Worms.
Which made him very much like the Church in his day. See Johann Eck, who at one time accused Luther of being a Judaizer.
ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews%20(Web).htm
Source.
Jon
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PerryJ
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JonNC
Here are just a couple of sources. I can prove everything I stated to be true. These books are not pro-Catholic and have his writings in them.
The concise History of the Catholic Church Page 210: As he (Luther) continued with his study of theology, he fell prey to moods of general depression; he suffered terrible trials of anguish of spirit, with sudden spasms of terror and despair gripping his heart, a torment so shattering, he said, that had it lasted even the tenth part of an hour, his bones would have crumbled into ashes. Deeply conscious of his sinfulness and guilt, he felt that any moment he might be **struck down by the living God and cast into Hell. ** Craving certainty, he confessed frequently, even daily fasted and prayed; but he found little relief. And then in the extremes of his agony he even cried out his hatred of God, which in turn exacerbated his feelings of guilt. “For I hoped I might find peace of conscience with fasts, prayer, vigils with which I miserably afflicted my body, but the more I sweated it out like this, the less peace and tranquility I knew,” he wrote … “The crisis was resolved…when I juxtaposed the phrase “justice of God” with “the just man shall live by faith’ in Romans 1:17. It was the starting point and remained the key to his distinctive theology and as such the basis of all subsequent reformation theology. **It is clear that in essentials this theology was completed before the beginning of his great struggle in 1517”. **
1517 was the time when he became aware of and starting to attack the Churches use of indulgences.
**The Reformation a History; Diarmaid MacCullcoh Page 116: **“After all his frequent anxious visits to the confessional to seek forgiveness for his sins, he still felt righteous God’s fury against his sin. Reminiscing later, **he said that he had come to hate this God **who had given laws in the Old Testament that could not be kept. The answer was to discover that God put aside his wrath as judge for human beings whom he chose as his elect. They received a gift of faith that had nothing to do with their own sinful actions. It was entirely in the will of God to grant this gift…Luther clung to this sense of release through his later career, when the powers of the Church and commonwealth, and worse still the contradictions of his theology within his own mind.
Luther was not a great martyr or theologian. He was just a man that misunderstood the doctrine of faith and works and felt inadequate. I do not have a source with me about his support for the murder of 100,000 peasants; however it is very easily found. He did it to support the politics of the German princes.
Here are just a couple of sources. I can prove everything I stated to be true. These books are not pro-Catholic and have his writings in them.
The concise History of the Catholic Church Page 210: As he (Luther) continued with his study of theology, he fell prey to moods of general depression; he suffered terrible trials of anguish of spirit, with sudden spasms of terror and despair gripping his heart, a torment so shattering, he said, that had it lasted even the tenth part of an hour, his bones would have crumbled into ashes. Deeply conscious of his sinfulness and guilt, he felt that any moment he might be **struck down by the living God and cast into Hell. ** Craving certainty, he confessed frequently, even daily fasted and prayed; but he found little relief. And then in the extremes of his agony he even cried out his hatred of God, which in turn exacerbated his feelings of guilt. “For I hoped I might find peace of conscience with fasts, prayer, vigils with which I miserably afflicted my body, but the more I sweated it out like this, the less peace and tranquility I knew,” he wrote … “The crisis was resolved…when I juxtaposed the phrase “justice of God” with “the just man shall live by faith’ in Romans 1:17. It was the starting point and remained the key to his distinctive theology and as such the basis of all subsequent reformation theology. **It is clear that in essentials this theology was completed before the beginning of his great struggle in 1517”. **
1517 was the time when he became aware of and starting to attack the Churches use of indulgences.
**The Reformation a History; Diarmaid MacCullcoh Page 116: **“After all his frequent anxious visits to the confessional to seek forgiveness for his sins, he still felt righteous God’s fury against his sin. Reminiscing later, **he said that he had come to hate this God **who had given laws in the Old Testament that could not be kept. The answer was to discover that God put aside his wrath as judge for human beings whom he chose as his elect. They received a gift of faith that had nothing to do with their own sinful actions. It was entirely in the will of God to grant this gift…Luther clung to this sense of release through his later career, when the powers of the Church and commonwealth, and worse still the contradictions of his theology within his own mind.
Luther was not a great martyr or theologian. He was just a man that misunderstood the doctrine of faith and works and felt inadequate. I do not have a source with me about his support for the murder of 100,000 peasants; however it is very easily found. He did it to support the politics of the German princes.
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PerryJ
Guest
Well, I’m not completely sure of that, but I’ll take you at your word, and none taken anyway. Your view of Luther, I would suggest, is not in step even with the Catholic Church. The old bash-him-personally approach of O’Hare and others is from an old era, aside from being apologetically disingenuous. It doesn’t fit the ecumenism and good will that is occurring today between our communions, anymore than the old Lutheran “papacy as anti-christ” polemics do, which I reject as well.
I would also suggest that your initial diatribe, and my previously admitted less-than-charitable response here have added nothing to this thread about the early reformers’ views on Mariology. The irony is that you and I probably share somewhat similar views on the Blessed Virgin. Perhaps our next conversation will be about some things our faiths share in common.
My personal apology to the OP.
Blessings,
Jon
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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Why did I get very uncomfortable reading the last few Post? To make Judgment calls on Luther’s state of mind or sanity, or even whether or not he was bigoted some 500 years after his death is a Little far bit of a stretch. On top of not being the topic of the thread. I will say that if he had not fallen in with the German Princes that he would not have left the Church do see that he became a pawn of the Political powers and that It may have influenced a lot of his later writings. That does not take away from the fact that he made some valid points, or that he had some valid criticisms. Many if not all were addressed and corrected by the council of Trent.
We need to stop reliving these old arguments and look at what we share and how we can Come together back to one Faith. 100 years ago there was a mighty river between the Catholic Church and Lutherans, now days there is but a rolling creek. There are few major points that separate these days and I pray that forums like this we can discover that they are not as major as we think and that the Bishops of the Catholic church and Lutheran Leaders ( sorry I don’t know the structure of Lutheranism above parish Pastor) can work toward unity.
We need to stop reliving these old arguments and look at what we share and how we can Come together back to one Faith. 100 years ago there was a mighty river between the Catholic Church and Lutherans, now days there is but a rolling creek. There are few major points that separate these days and I pray that forums like this we can discover that they are not as major as we think and that the Bishops of the Catholic church and Lutheran Leaders ( sorry I don’t know the structure of Lutheranism above parish Pastor) can work toward unity.
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