Calvin or Luther or someone else?

[jmoneyideas]

I am new to the Lord. I go to a little Non Denominational Church that is more anti catholic than non denominational. My pastor is so against Catholicism even though he was raised Catholic. He ended up in the Pentecostal denomination where he became a Pastor. I am leaning toward the Catholic side in my religious life. The History and Christ seem to line up with the Roman Catholic Church in my opinion. Since doing more research about our Faith, I mean our Faith in Christ not the different forms of the Faith, who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else. I am so green in my walk that I am soaking everything in like a sponge. This weekend I am going to a mass and my church… Love the lord and love the history of the Church!

 

[Marie_Gregg]

I don’t want to dampen your zeal for understanding the history of Christianity. However, I encourage you to focus simply upon the Lord. He is, after all, the center. Explore your new-found identity as His child. Soak in the Scriptures. Dive into music that puts you in a worshipful attitude. I believe that He will be faithful to guide you to exactly where you need to be.

Oh - and welcome to the family! We might be dysfunctional, but we’re glad that you’re here.

 

[jmoneyideas]

Thanks for the reply. I am diving in and love the feeling I am having. It is always about Christ but the truth is Christ Church has been divided big time. Yes we know it is all for God and him yet there is so much division in the Church. Thats what the Question was in reference to.

 

[grandfather]

Thanks for the reply. I am diving in and love the feeling I am having. It is always about Christ but the truth is Christ Church has been divided big time. Yes we know it is all for God and him yet there is so much division in the Church. Thats what the Question was in reference to.

Jesus taught His apostles over a three year period and we can read much of what He said and did in the gospels. But if we read the things He said on the night before died it seems like He saved some of the most important things for last.

In the account of that passover supper, first Eucharist, He speaks a lot about unity. He commands His followers to be one, not divided, but one. Denominationalism, thousands of Protestant denominations is direct disobedience to Christ’s commands.

He made promises to His apostles. He said to them that there was much He wanted to tell them, but they could not “bear it yet”. We are finite beings with finite minds. There are mysteries of faith, things of God who is infinite, our finite minds can not hold. But He promised to send the Holy Spirit to them, to lead them into all truth. In other words, their doctrine, the things they believe and teach will be true. He promised He would be with them until the end of time, with this Church He commanded be one, unified, not ten, or ten thousand, but one.

If His promises are true then the things His Church believes in all ages past and all to come will be true.

The things the Church believed and taught about the Eucharist, for example, or baptism, or any doctrine in the year 200 or 2,000 are true. Truth does not change. It is consistent.

If some group comes along a thousand or two thousand years later and says the Church was wrong about her doctrine for so many centuries and they know the truth from how they interpret the Bible they are wrong, or Christ’s promises to lead us into all truth are false.

Again for example, if the Church has baptized babies from the beginning and a sect comes along 1800 years later and says only adults should be baptized, that Christians were wrong to do this from the beginning, either that sect is wrong or Christ’s promises are false.

Understanding can increase over time. He said there was much He wanted to tell the apostles, but they could not bear it YET. But if some new understanding contradicts what the Church has always taught, it must be wrong, or Christ’s promises to lead us into all truth are false.

All we can do to end the disobedience of disunity is pray for unity. The reason Christian civilization is so battered is disunity. Jesus taught that a house divided will fall. We are witnessing that happen. Our world today has become so confused that it no longer knows that men marry women. The reason for this is the division known as denominationalism.

God bless you on your personal journey in faith.

 

[JRKH]

I am new to the Lord. I go to a little Non Denominational Church that is more anti catholic than non denominational. My pastor is so against Catholicism even though he was raised Catholic. He ended up in the Pentecostal denomination where he became a Pastor.

It is a sad thing that some of the most vehement anti-Catholics are people who have left the Church. God have mercy on them.

I am leaning toward the Catholic side in my religious life. The History and Christ seem to line up with the Roman Catholic Church in my opinion. Since doing more research about our Faith, I mean our Faith in Christ not the different forms of the Faith, who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else. I am so green in my walk that I am soaking everything in like a sponge. This weekend I am going to a mass and my church… Love the lord and love the history of the Church!

Terminology can be difficult in these things.
There have been many reformations of the Church and some revolts. What occurred in the 16th century was a very sad episode and there is blame enough to go around.

That said, the greatest reformer is Jesus Christ Himself. He reformed the Church from the Old covenant to the New covenant.
After that there have been many reformers in the Church. Great men and women who have called the Church (members) back from poor practices to a renewed holiness.

Unfortunately I cannot really give you many names, but I know that St Francis was a reformer, as was St Teresa of Avila and St Catherine of Sienna. Our Late Pope John the XXIII also took steps to reform the Church by calling Vatican II.

Peace
James

 

[Denise1957]

Luther and Calvin are not considered reformers of the Catholic Church. Luther was a Catholic priest who left the Church. Calvin was not a priest, but he left the Catholic Church as well.

There have been reformers within the Catholic Church, as has already been mentioned on the thread.

I’d recommend a book called, ‘The Catholic Church and Conversion,’ by G.K. Chesterton. The book discusses the differences between Catholics and Protestants, but it doesn’t denigrate the Protestants. And there’s humor, too. It was helpful to me when I converted to Catholicism. Here’s a link to the book from the EWTN website:

ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/CONVERSI.TXT

I’m so glad to hear that you are interested in the Catholic Church, and that you’ll be attending Mass on Sunday.

God bless!

 

[hn160]

The Calvinist considered the Lutherans too Catholic and that Luther didn’t go far enough.

 

[BrianGular]

I am new to the Lord. I go to a little Non Denominational Church that is more anti catholic than non denominational. My pastor is so against Catholicism even though he was raised Catholic. He ended up in the Pentecostal denomination where he became a Pastor. I am leaning toward the Catholic side in my religious life. The History and Christ seem to line up with the Roman Catholic Church in my opinion. Since doing more research about our Faith, I mean our Faith in Christ not the different forms of the Faith, who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else. I am so green in my walk that I am soaking everything in like a sponge. This weekend I am going to a mass and my church… Love the lord and love the history of the Church!

Hey, Jmoney!

I agree with JRKH about your pastor’s attitude toward Catholicism. He’s probably so vehement because he was part of the church at one time. Quality control in Protestant churches is quite poor. You might consider trying other Protestant churches instead of judging them all by this one guy.

I think a study of church history is valuable. I am mid-way through a Historical Theology course at a local seminary. My view at this point is two-fold:

1. The more I learn the more complicated it gets
2. Most of church history is chain reactions. Church fathers reacted against heresy but then went too far. Welcoming relief from persecution, the church embraced the state but went to far when it committed its own persecution of heretics. The reformers reacted to the abuses of the church but went too far in rejecting tradition. The Roman church reacted against the reformers by hardening her positions.

In the early centuries, the beliefs of the church were defined by something called the Regula Fide–the things everyone believed. This tiny body of doctrine was expanded positively through the development of theology proper (the development of the doctrine of the Trinity is a good example of this) and negatively through alignment with the state and increasing levels of hierarchy. Until the 16th century, we managed to keep together one cathoic (little c = universal) church–although there were strong undercurrents of reform for many years prior to the Reformation. One can look at the Reformation as an event, but it was really a process that, frankly, is still going on today. I write all of this to demonstrate that Roman Catholics and Protestants share a considerable past, and both can claim to trace an unbroken line back to Jesus Christ himself.

When I boil it down, the fundamental differences between Roman Catholics and orthodox Protestants are their views of scripture and the institution of the church. Both groups consider the scriptures to be the infallible revelation of God to man. The rub comes when we examine their views on the role of the church. Roman Catholics would say that the history and traditions of the church are also part of God’s infallible revelation and that the church is in a position of authority over scripture, faith and practice. If the church says marriage is a sacrament, even though it is not described as such in the Bible, it is a sacrament. Orthodox Protestants, on the other hand, recognize the importance of the history and traditions of the church and does not reject them, but it would teach that the Bible is the authority in matters of faith and practice. For them, the Bible holds authority over history and tradition. Therefore, much of the schism between the two groups is borne of their different views on the authority of the church.

This is the point at which you need to decide which best aligns with Jesus and history. Basing a decision on a man standing in a pulpit is shaky at best.

 

[pablope]

Hey, Jmoney!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I am new to the Lord. I go to a little Non Denominational Church that is more anti catholic than non denominational. My pastor is so against Catholicism even though he was raised Catholic. He ended up in the Pentecostal denomination where he became a Pastor. I am leaning toward the Catholic side in my religious life. The History and Christ seem to line up with the Roman Catholic Church in my opinion. Since doing more research about our Faith, I mean our Faith in Christ not the different forms of the Faith, who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else. I am so green in my walk that I am soaking everything in like a sponge. This weekend I am going to a mass and my church… Love the lord and love the history of the Church!

Blast …I had half a page typed up and now I’ve lost it…

Basically Martin Luther and his supporters started the Reformation as we call it, although there had long been calls to reform the corruption in the Church from within. Even Luther probably wanted to do so at the beginning, but after his “kidnap” by von Hutten and von Sickingen, he was spirited away to the Wartburg. From this time on it became as much political as much as spiritual, with wars and a death toll to match.

For example, William Shirer, the American journalist who wrote “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” claimed the German population decreased in a century from about 16 million to about 6 million, and that a “horrible torpor” descended on Germany for centuries. It was his opinion, and he made it clear he was a Protestant, that if there was a mad genius who laid the ground for Hitler, he would have to nominate Martin Luther.

For background on Shirer, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_L._Shirer

For a less pleasant look at Luther, the following link may help -

tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.html

However Luther gave direct rise to the Lutheran Church.

Calvin came a bit later.

From Wikipedia -

“John Calvin (French: Jean Calvin or Jehan Cauvin; 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564) was an influential French theologian and pastor during the Protestant Reformation. He was a principal figure in the development of the system of Christian theology later called Calvinism. Originally trained as a humanist lawyer, he broke from the Roman Catholic Church around 1530. After religious tensions provoked a violent uprising against Protestants in France, Calvin fled to Basel, Switzerland, where he published the first edition of his seminal work Institutes of the Christian Religion in 1536.”

For the full article, see the following - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

He gave rise to those churches known as “Reformed”, of which probably the best known in the English speaking world is the Presbyterian Church, which owes its origins to John Knox, a Scot, and it still has it’s world HO in Scotland. The Dutch Reformed Church is another, and it had a lot to do with the South African policy of aparthied in South Afriica, through the Boer settlers, who were originally Dutch.

The Reformed Churches generally follow Calvinistic theology. Wikipedia has a link on Reformed Churches -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Reformed_churches

For the Anglican Church (or Episcopal Church as they are called in the USA), you have to thank old Henry VIII, the king with the six wives, two of whom nagged him too much. In some ways it is very similar in liturgy and form to the Catholic Church.

Methodism under John Wesley was an attempt to reform the Anglican Church, but broke away. My “old pastor” whom I briefly refer to later was a Methodist by training, but joined the Presbyterian Church about a year after a local merger between Methodist, Congregationalist and some Presbyterian churches which became the Uniting Church of Australia. So I did not cop hardline Calvinism when I was a Presbyterian.

I’m not au fait with other churches eg. Baptists, Salvos, Pentecostals and so on, or the quasi-Christian sects such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc. I wold have no idea where your own church originated for example. You’ll have to do your own research on that.

I’ve made it clear that I didn’t get along with my own father in other posts, but I won’t go into that here. But I do remember him once saying about the protestants that “They can’t even agree between themselves what they believe.” And my “old protestant pastor” whom I sometimes quote in various posts and above, once made the sarcastic comment to me that “When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn’t agree how far to spit.”

I think the Catholic Church is “closest to the truth”, and I am afraid I’m not being particularly original in that, as my old pastor turned up one night in a very brief vision, a few years after he’d died, and simply said, “The Catholic Church is closest to the truth.”

Anyway that’s my opinion, and I hope the above fills you in a bit.

 

[jmoneyideas]

WOW, thats some seriously good stuff everyone. Thanks alot for the comments. In my opinion it seems that you can find a Church to fit your life style and your own belief system which in its self seems wrong. We are called to be one in Christ. I think of it as like ordering a pizza you can have it your way, but it is supposed to be his way.

It seems to me that all the differnet translations, and interpitation of the word of God can really lead people astray amd confussed. Which is kind of scary to think that those who Pastor are going to be judged harsher by God, I would want to know if I was one that I was with God and his Glorious word!

I went and Got some books. One I am cracking open today is Rediscover Catholicism , which my Mother in Law got me and the other is Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. I have read through My Quest Study Bible NIV edition all the way through and many of its study notes. I am really Diving in as they say, and in the deep end too.

 

[jwright82]

As a Calvinist I would say Calvin. But remember there were many different “reformers” withen the “Reformed” movement. Calvin started something that Reformed christians have developed.

 

[grandfather]

As a Calvinist I would say Calvin. But remember there were many different “reformers” withen the “Reformed” movement. Calvin started something that Reformed christians have developed.

The key word there is started. Calvin started, he was the originator of a novel body of doctrine. His doctrine is not of the apostles, the men who were sent by Jesus into all the world to teach the nations what He taught them.

This is not a matter of theology. It is history.

Those who followed after him took his ideas and kept some, changed some and morphed them into various versions of what he started.

If Calvin’s ideas are correct, true, then the things the Church believed before Him, which his beliefs contradict, are false.

If the Church ever believed what is false, then Christ’s promises to lead her into all truth until the end of time are false. If Calvin’s novel doctrines are true, Christ’s promises to His Church found in scripture are false. The same is true of Luther, Zwingli and all that came after them in the Protestant sects.

 

[jmoneyideas]

Just watched a great clip form Father Barron on Protestantism and Authority of the church where he gives a great analogy. Take a look and tell me what you think.

youtu.be/RWYwBDqFsuE

Can we as Christians mold things to how we want to hear them so much that God and Jesus can be Lost in Translation. (which was one of the worst movies I ever saw). I really like the whole Authority that the Church has to clean up and steer its body back on path when we go astray.

At my church we have had guest Pastors come in and preach and you can hear the different interpretations be spoken and at the end next week comes and he is there correcting what was said by the other Pastor last week. It really can lead to confussion. Anyways thanks again for the comments which are very insightful.

 

[grandfather]

Mormons claim that the entire Church apostacized sometime early in Church history. They claim their first prophet came along in the 1800s and an angel revealed this to him.

There are two problems with this notion. The first is a problem with history. There were many theological controversies and disputes throughout history within the Church. THe historical record tells what they were. Who said and did what, when and where. History shows how all of these were settled and it is often not a pretty picture. People feel very strongly about matters that are most important to them.

In no instance does the historical record show that the Church at one time believed X doctrine and then repudiated it to embrace Y. If there was an apostacy history is silent about it. In order to maintain the idea that the Church was going down the right path and then took the wrong one it must be that there was a big historical cover up. History was rewritten. Anyone who looks at the detailed history of the Church has a difficult time showing any evidence of a coverup. The entire population would have had to go along with it, because no one in history makes the claim that history was falsified.

The second problem with the theory that there was an apostacy is that if that happened then Jesus made false promises to lead His Church into all truth until the end of time.

If the claims of Protestantism, either Luther’s original claims, Calvin’s, or any of them are true, that the ancient doctrines are false in any way, the same problem arises. It means Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not lead His Church into all truth as promised. There had to have either been an apostacy as Mormons claim, or God failed us.

No one has the authority to start a church today based on his personal reading of scripture. Jesus founded a Church on men, His apostles, not scripture. They and their successors wrote scripture. Two of the gospels were written by disciples of apostles who passed on their teaching authority to them, Mark and Luke.

The dividing of the Church into thousands of denominations is nothing but disastrous for Christian civilization. Any Christian who thinks this was a good thing is blind.

 

[JRKH]

Just watched a great clip form Father Barron on Protestantism and Authority of the church where he gives a great analogy. Take a look and tell me what you think.

youtu.be/RWYwBDqFsuE

Good link.
I like the analogy of the Umpire/Referee and I even think that where he says it breaks down (because umpires can be wrong), might not be wholly true.
Consider. A bishop in a single diocese makes a “call” (like an umpire in a game). The faithful in the diocese is obligated to accept the Bishop’s teaching (again like an umpire in the game). But this might not be the end of the matter. It might be that the bishop’s “call” might be reviewed (replay) and correction made.
However, even if a correction is made, the faithful are in good stead with the Lord for being faithful to the Bishop.

Can we as Christians mold things to how we want to hear them so much that God and Jesus can be Lost in Translation. (which was one of the worst movies I ever saw). I really like the whole Authority that the Church has to clean up and steer its body back on path when we go astray.

Indeed.
During the time that I was away from any church, I read the Gospels on my own and came away with some pretty weird ideas along with some pretty good ones. They were all mixed up together.
The great and good function of the Church is to listen to all of the voices, both learned and unlearned, check things against historical teaching and discern what is correct for all of the faithful. We participate in this by prayer, by speaking, by studying but always by being obedient to Church teachings.

At my church we have had guest Pastors come in and preach and you can hear the different interpretations be spoken and at the end next week comes and he is there correcting what was said by the other Pastor last week. It really can lead to confussion. Anyways thanks again for the comments which are very insightful.

You are welcome…
Are you still planning on attending mass in tomorrow?
I’ll be interested in your impressions.

Peace
James

 

[AmateurPianist]

I am new to the Lord. I go to a little Non Denominational Church that is more anti catholic than non denominational. My pastor is so against Catholicism even though he was raised Catholic. He ended up in the Pentecostal denomination where he became a Pastor. I am leaning toward the Catholic side in my religious life. The History and Christ seem to line up with the Roman Catholic Church in my opinion. Since doing more research about our Faith, I mean our Faith in Christ not the different forms of the Faith, who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else. I am so green in my walk that I am soaking everything in like a sponge. This weekend I am going to a mass and my church… Love the lord and love the history of the Church!

Hi:
Congratulations on the start of your journey with Jesus Christ. Some random comments,

• God will guide you to where he would have you. I have no interest either way. He could lead you back to Catholicism maybe onle because that was how you were raised. But then again maybe not.
• There are Pentecostal churches/groups that are not antiCatholic. I attend one of them
• The study of history is subjective and open to interpretation. Just as much if not more so than the study of the Bible. People more smart and educated than either you or I disagree on church history and its interpretation.
• Can’t answer about the reformers. More of a John Wesley man myself.
• The big issue with Catholicism you have to answer (IMHO) is whether God today sees His church existing in one organization or whether God today sees His church in multiple organizations. This is a separate issue than whether the church existing in multiple organizations is a part of God’s design. I suggest praying over this one question.

 

[BrianGular]

WOW, thats some seriously good stuff everyone. Thanks alot for the comments. In my opinion it seems that you can find a Church to fit your life style and your own belief system which in its self seems wrong. We are called to be one in Christ. I think of it as like ordering a pizza you can have it your way, but it is supposed to be his way.

It seems to me that all the differnet translations, and interpitation of the word of God can really lead people astray amd confussed. Which is kind of scary to think that those who Pastor are going to be judged harsher by God, I would want to know if I was one that I was with God and his Glorious word!

I went and Got some books. One I am cracking open today is Rediscover Catholicism , which my Mother in Law got me and the other is Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. I have read through My Quest Study Bible NIV edition all the way through and many of its study notes. I am really Diving in as they say, and in the deep end too.

Hey, Jmoney!

You are very wise. You are taking your pursuit of the truth seriously. You are exploring options. And, best of all, you realize the fallacy of following something that merely fits one’s lifestyle. One of the characteristics of God’s revelation to us is that it cuts across culture, time, and “comfort.” It convicts us where we are wrong. Signing up for what “suits our lifestyle” often means signing up for a religion of our own creation. Much better to follow Christ!

Best wishes as you explore.

 

[JRKH]

Hi:
Congratulations on the start of your journey with Jesus Christ. Some random comments,

• God will guide you to where he would have you. I have no interest either way. He could lead you back to Catholicism maybe onle because that was how you were raised. But then again maybe not.
• There are Pentecostal churches/groups that are not antiCatholic. I attend one of them
• The study of history is subjective and open to interpretation. Just as much if not more so than the study of the Bible. People more smart and educated than either you or I disagree on church history and its interpretation.
• Can’t answer about the reformers. More of a John Wesley man myself.
  *** The big issue with Catholicism you have to answer (IMHO) is whether God today sees His church existing in one organization or whether God today sees His church in multiple organizations. This is a separate issue than whether the church existing in multiple organizations is a part of God’s design. I suggest praying over this one question.**

AP,
You bring out some really good points above.
I bolded the last simply because, in my experience, there can be a real disconnect and misunderstanding between various Christian groups over the term “Church” and “Church organization”.
For instance - I have been in conversations with people who believe in the “invisible church of the saved” and believe that this “church” consists of people in every “church organization” who are truly among the saved. Then when talking about church authority as presented in - say - Mt 18:15-18 (“tell it to the Church”) they claim that this refers to the local visible church which will inevitably contain both saved and unsaved and is different from the invisible “church of the saved”.
I’m sure that you can see how such conversations can quickly become quite confused and difficult…:hypno:
I’m not saying that you fit this category but rather I bring it up for the benefit of the OP.

This is not just a “big issue with Catholicism” but a big issue with becoming a disciple of Christ and understanding and following Christ based on the teachings of the bible.

What did Christ intend for His “Church” to be - organizationally?

Organizationally I have found nothing in scripture to support the idea of a group of independent organizations. What I see is first a single family/tribe headed up by patriarchs. Later, a single nation of twelve tribes, all tied to the central Law and the Temple in Jerusalem…10 of those tribes are lost after a time as they distanced themselves from the temple. The two tribes that survived remained tied to the central temple and to the Law. Finally we have the Coming of Christ and the beginnings of Christ’s Church and the new covenant. So what can we see in the NT?
The NT is peppered with calls from Christ and the Apostles to be one, to praise with one voice, to be in agreement, to be one as Christ and the Father are one…Then there is the instruction in Mt 18:15-18 about “tell it to the Church” and that the Church has the authority to “bind and loose…whatever”. Plus there is the famous council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 that demonstrates this authority. None of these things points to a group of structurally and doctrinally independent organizations.

Sorry for getting off on this rambling bit…
I know that non-Catholic Christians have a different slant on many of these things and I don’t really intend to start another discussion about this (unless the OP would find such of help).

The Catholic Church accepts as true brothers and sisters in Christ, all who have been baptized using the trinitarian form. So all who are thus baptized are considered “in the church”, even those who are not currently in full communion with her.

Peace
James

 

[bz5]

To the OP: you might also enjoy Alex Jones’s story of how he went from being a Pentecostal pastor to Catholic, bringing much of his congregation with him. What brought him home? As with so many, it was the question of authority and reading the church fathers. If you google “alex jones pentecostal catholic,” you’ll see a few youtube postings of him, to start with.