Calvinist and eternal security

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Well where, if ever, has this happened? You seem to be implying an almost birds eye view into the misterious eternal decrees of God, which a Calvinist would rule out as impossible to know, I can know that I am saved but I can never truely know if you are saved.

I don’t beleive it is a simple question so I will refrain from giving a simple yes or no. If the person is saved than yes if not than no. Many people die who live very godly lives and are not saved. We can never really know what is between a brother or sister and God, I find it troubling to even speculate in such a way. Again unless God has given you some inside knowledge to who made it and who didn’t and than you can compare their lives to a biblical one and make a decision, than fine ( but we are all not so luckly).

We also affirm that sanctification is progressive, so on that note one might assume that the answer would be no, they were at that point never one of the elect. Your question was framed withen Catholic presupositions, that is fine but in order to critique Calvinism from a reductio ad absurdeum type argument, assume Calvinism to be true and work the logical implications of it and show that it is absurd logically, than you must accept Calvinistic presupositions in your argument, not Catholic ones.

For a Catholic it is easy a mortal sin is a mortal is a mortal sin. So this person than lost their salvation, but for a Calvinist we view things as to whether or not they were ever saved to begin with. Also the Covenant of Grace plays in here because all elect will be part of the Covenant of Grace in some fashion. So In this sense did this person commit apostacy and leave the visible church? If so than they were never really onre of us. You see the question is much more complicated than you think it is.
it is not that complicated, when you look at the many verses, that state, a person can truly believe, be on the road to heaven, and fall away. that it is possible to be living for God, and and that it is possible to fall away and lose heaven in the end. its not that complicated when you read the Church fathers, who gave strong warnings. therefore, its not complicated to see that if a person dies in the midst of a serious sin, there is not much of a hope. Calvinist, would tell us, it does not matter. the person believed so he was “saved”. to say a person was not one of yours, or Gods, is more presumptious i would think. how can you know if that person was never right with God in the first place? come to think of it…How do you are one of the elect? thanks and peace 🙂
 
it is not that complicated, when you look at the many verses, that state, a person can truly believe, be on the road to heaven, and fall away. that it is possible to be living for God, and and that it is possible to fall away and lose heaven in the end. its not that complicated when you read the Church fathers, who gave strong warnings. therefore, its not complicated to see that if a person dies in the midst of a serious sin, there is not much of a hope. Calvinist, would tell us, it does not matter. the person believed so he was “saved”. to say a person was not one of yours, or Gods, is more presumptious i would think. how can you know if that person was never right with God in the first place? come to think of it…How do you are one of the elect? thanks and peace 🙂
I guess I should have emphasised probably. Yes many verse mention falling away but our future hope is in God’s sustaining grace, so if God wills it we will persevere. Your trying to push that once saved always saved, regardless of how one lives afterwards, too far into Calvinism. It is essentially a straw man argument. I would recomend this website for all Reformed theological matters monergism.com/. You see I beleive that both sides of this conflict will see better when we understand the other as they understand themselves, not straw man type arguments. I have labored very hard on this website to present the correct view of Calvinism.
 
I would refer you away from charachators of the Calvinist beleifs and toward what I have hoped to lay out as the correct Calvinist/Reformed view
And who is to say that you are not just another “charachator”?

I appreciate that you are trying to represent the Calvanist viewpoint. Many others have done the same here, and sometimes they see it differently.

Catholics do the same thing.😃
 
I guess I should have emphasised probably. Yes many verse mention falling away but our future hope is in God’s sustaining grace, so if God wills it we will persevere. Your trying to push that once saved always saved, regardless of how one lives afterwards, too far into Calvinism. It is essentially a straw man argument. I would recomend this website for all Reformed theological matters monergism.com/. You see I beleive that both sides of this conflict will see better when we understand the other as they understand themselves, not straw man type arguments. I have labored very hard on this website to present the correct view of Calvinism.
Does man in anyway cooperate with God’s grace for salvation?
 
=JRKH;7501492]Regardless of any specific scenerios (which in my experience will be constantly changed as the conversation goes on), the basic difference between the Calvinist and the Catholic boils down to the single issue OSAS…or Predestination…or whatever other term they might want to apply to it. It is a question of whether a person can lose their salvation after they have “received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior”.
A secondary aspect is that most protestants do not differentiate gravity of sin where the Catholic Church does. This difference makes the proposed scenerio in the OP kind of strange and perhaps that is what needs to be addressed.
There is no need to lay this at the feet of the CC; please read the Bible; even in the KJB…

1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 5: 16-17 [applies precisely to this comment] and John 10:19-23.
In the the basic scenerio is this:
“If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven?”
Receiving Christ “as a persoanl savior” BUT that alone will not get anyone into heaven. See the above bible references. Also were this true, there would be no need for the Commandments, right?

Matt.5: 19 [Jesus speaking] “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matt.19: 17 "And he [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

No-one, with no exceptions will attain heaven without obeying the Commandments. That friend is what Jesus Teaches. Ignoring it does makw it go away or become an invalid teaching of Christ.
How can a person who is, “in a state of unrepentant gross sin”, be seen has having accepted Christ? The OP scenerio attempts to clarify thus - “in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin”. So the sin was committed in a moment of weakness of an otherwise Christian life? ?QUOTE]
**1 John 5:16-17 **and **John 20:19-23 **affirm this fact. Die in Mortal sin; unconfesed nd unrepented and send yourself to hell. It is We, you and me who choose heaven or hell; God only affirms our personal choice.
Which brings us to the definition of mortal sin. Full knowledge and Full consent.
If full knowledge and full consent are present, and the person chooses to commit the sin, in defiance of the Will fo God, I suspect that you rcalvinist friends would agree taht he is not going to heaven because, in their theology, he was never truly saved in the first place…
Peace
James
I would add to this that one’s personal opinion is ONLY VALID, if such a person was never exposed to the truth; or for some strange reason unable to discover the truth for themselves. In America and in this hi-tech generation we are part of; I suspect this is extremely rare. Even if one listens to false teachers; one cannot shif the blame totally; as the truh can be had; can be learned. It of course can also be denined; which is the same as denying God Himself.

Choseing NOT to accept truth still makes one cupable and guilty in God’s view.

PRAY about it.

Pat
 
=bettyg51;7509835]I wonder what they would think about these verses?
Matt 5:17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.
1 John 5:16 “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.”
1 Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, * 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Heb 6:4 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.”
VERY WELL DONE! Thanks
 
And who is to say that you are not just another “charachator”?

I appreciate that you are trying to represent the Calvanist viewpoint. Many others have done the same here, and sometimes they see it differently.

Catholics do the same thing.😃
Here is the Canon of Dordt on the issue. This document is where the whole 5 points of Calvinism came from, they dealt with 5 different doctrinal errors committed by the Arminians.
Canon of Dordt: Fifth Main Point of Doctrine:
The Perseverance of the Saints
Article 1: The Regenerate Not Entirely Free from Sin

Those people whom God according to his purpose calls into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he also sets free from the reign and slavery of sin, though in this life not entirely from the flesh and from the body of sin.

Article 2: The Believer’s Reaction to Sins of Weakness

Hence daily sins of weakness arise, and blemishes cling to even the best works of God’s people, giving them continual cause to humble themselves before God, to flee for refuge to Christ crucified, to put the flesh to death more and more by the Spirit of supplication and by holy exercises of godliness, and to strain toward the goal of perfection, until they are freed from this body of death and reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.

Article 3: God’s Preservation of the Converted

Because of these remnants of sin dwelling in them and also because of the temptations of the world and Satan, those who have been converted could not remain standing in this grace if left to their own resources. But God is faithful, mercifully strengthening them in the grace once conferred on them and powerfully preserving them in it to the end.

Article 4: The Danger of True Believers’ Falling into Serious Sins

Although that power of God strengthening and preserving true believers in grace is more than a match for the flesh, yet those converted are not always so activated and motivated by God that in certain specific actions they cannot by their own fault depart from the leading of grace, be led astray by the desires of the flesh, and give in to them. For this reason they must constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptations. When they fail to do this, not onlycan they be carried away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into sins, even serious and outrageous ones, but also by God’s just permission they sometimesare so carried away–witness the sad cases, described in Scripture, of David, Peter, and other saints falling into sins.

Article 5: The Effects of Such Serious Sins

By such monstrous sins, however, they greatly offend God, deserve the sentence of death, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, severely wound the conscience, and sometimes lose the awareness of grace for a time–until, after they have returned to the way by genuine repentance, God’s fatherly face again shines upon them.

Article 6: God’s Saving Intervention

For God, who is rich in mercy, according to his unchangeable purpose of election does not take his Holy Spirit from his own completely, even when they fall grievously. Neither does he let them fall down so far that they forfeit the grace of adoption and the state of justification, or commit the sin which leads to death (the sin against the Holy Spirit), and plunge themselves, entirely forsaken by him, into eternal ruin.

Article 7: Renewal to Repentance

For, in the first place, God preserves in those saints when they fall his imperishable seed from which they have been born again, lest it perish or be dislodged. Secondly, by his Word and Spirit he certainly and effectively renews them to repentance so that they have a heartfelt and godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; seek and obtain, through faith and with a contrite heart, forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; experience again the grace of a reconciled God; through faith adore his mercies; and from then on more eagerly work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
Originally Posted by Third Day
Does man in anyway cooperate with God’s grace for salvation?
**The Reply **
Finaly an easy question to answer, no.
Actually WE DO!

Catholic Catechism:
CCC # 1993 "Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion**, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, ***man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; ***and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight. "

We ought to keep in mind that Grace is a FREE Gift from God; gien to whom itmplease Him, and in the amount that Pleases Him.

AS A Gift it can be accepted or rejected. [applying our Spiritual gifts of Mins, Intellect and Freewill.] GOD NEVER FORCES Grace on one; only makes i available to us.

God Bless,
Pat
 
Christ “as a persoanl savior” BUT that alone will not get anyone into heaven. See the above bible references. Also were this true, there would be no need for the Commandments, right?

Matt.5: 19 [Jesus speaking] “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matt.19: 17 "And he [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

No-one, with no exceptions will attain heaven without obeying the Commandments. That friend is what Jesus Teaches. Ignoring it does makw it go away or become an invalid teaching of Christ.
Actually, most Reformed Christians are dispensationalist, which means taht they don’t believe these teachings apply to them at all. They were given by Christ to the Jews prior to the cross. They were instructions only for those Jews, and all that applies to Christians is the teachings “after” the cross - grace only.
How can a person who is, “in a state of unrepentant gross sin”, be seen has having accepted Christ?
Because they believe that, once a person has accepted Christ as saviour, it can never be “undone”. Even if a person is found in unrepentant gross sin, they have still been permanently adopted by God, and God will ultimately cause them to persevere into heaven.
The OP scenerio attempts to clarify thus - “in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin”. So the sin was committed in a moment of weakness of an otherwise Christian life? ?QUOTE]

Yes, but even if a person got saved then strayed away, if they are one of the “elect” they will eventually return.
PJM;7522796:
Choseing NOT to accept truth still makes one cupable and guilty in God’s view.
Indeed.
 
**The Reply **

Actually WE DO!

Catholic Catechism:
CCC # 1993 "Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion**, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, ***man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; ***and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight. "

We ought to keep in mind that Grace is a FREE Gift from God; gien to whom itmplease Him, and in the amount that Pleases Him.

AS A Gift it can be accepted or rejected. [applying our Spiritual gifts of Mins, Intellect and Freewill.] GOD NEVER FORCES Grace on one; only makes i available to us.

God Bless,
Pat
👍 :blessyou:
 
=guanophore;7527804]Actually, most Reformed Christians are dispensationalist, which means taht they don’t believe these teachings apply to them at all. They were given by Christ to the Jews prior to the cross. They were instructions only for those Jews, and all that applies to Christians is the teachings “after” the cross - grace only.
Because they believe that, once a person has accepted Christ as saviour, it can never be “undone”. Even if a person is found in unrepentant gross sin, they have still been permanently adopted by God, and God will ultimately cause them to persevere into heaven.
The OP scenerio attempts to clarify thus - "in a moment of weakness

, this person died while commiting a greivious sin". So the sin was committed in a moment of weakness of an otherwise Christian life? ?QUOTE]

I am always intriquied by those who are able to justify to thmselves that one can attain heaven by acccepting ONLY what one likes in the Bible:o

What about th FIVE references to h absolute need "to take up your cross daily and folow me? [SEE lk. 14:7] And what about this very clear and very specific mandate by Christ:

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “
Yes, but even if a person got saved then strayed away, if they are one of the “elect” they will eventually return.

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

One wonders if it’s a matter of NOT being aware of what the Bible say’s, or an issue of “knowing more, and knowing better” than Christ and the NT authors?

I can’t conceive 😊 of anyone reading these and not at least questioning there positon.

God Bless,
Pat
 
**The Reply **

Actually WE DO!

Catholic Catechism:
CCC # 1993 "Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion**, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, ***man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; ***and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight. "

We ought to keep in mind that Grace is a FREE Gift from God; gien to whom itmplease Him, and in the amount that Pleases Him.

AS A Gift it can be accepted or rejected. [applying our Spiritual gifts of Mins, Intellect and Freewill.] GOD NEVER FORCES Grace on one; only makes i available to us.

God Bless,
Pat
Fair enough but we can argue over which view is right but the original question was over what Reformed christians beleive.
Actually, most Reformed Christians are dispensationalist, which means taht they don’t believe these teachings apply to them at all. They were given by Christ to the Jews prior to the cross. They were instructions only for those Jews, and all that applies to Christians is the teachings “after” the cross - grace only.
Actually we are not dispensationalists at all, we practice their chief theological antagonism covenant theology. Two totally different theologies.
 
=jwright82;7547066]Fair enough but we can argue over which view is right but the original question was over what Reformed christians beleive.
Actually we are not dispensationalists at all, we practice their chief theological antagonism covenant theology. Two totally different theologies.
My dear friend in Christ,

It seems to me that what is missing from this conversation is perhaps ?] an honest effort to find the single truth.?

The Fact is that Christ intended to acomplish precisly what HE DID ACCOMPLISH.

One new Church, based on One new Faith [Christ defined], and One New Covennt.

The NT has over 100 references to these FACTS. Here are but a few of them.

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”.

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,*** Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,*** in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular[/COLOR]] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

Eph. 4: 4 -8 “There is one body Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs[/COLOR]] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.":

So friends, if you claim to be a “bible church” then you ought to accept what the Bible actually say’s and teaches. Is this not logical? And can any theology or philosophy not mirroring that which Christ taught “I Am TheWAy and the TRUTH…” [Jn. 14:6], have real merit as a “Christian Faith?”

This certainly warants serious reflective and prayerful thought.

God Bless,
Pat
 
My dear friend in Christ,

It seems to me that what is missing from this conversation is perhaps ?] an honest effort to find the single truth.?

The Fact is that Christ intended to acomplish precisly what HE DID ACCOMPLISH.

One new Church, based on One new Faith [Christ defined], and One New Covennt.

The NT has over 100 references to these FACTS. Here are but a few of them.

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”.

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,*** Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,*** in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular[/COLOR]] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

Eph. 4: 4 -8 “There is one body Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs[/COLOR]] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.":

So friends, if you claim to be a “bible church” then you ought to accept what the Bible actually say’s and teaches. Is this not logical? And can any theology or philosophy not mirroring that which Christ taught “I Am TheWAy and the TRUTH…” [Jn. 14:6], have real merit as a “Christian Faith?”

This certainly warants serious reflective and prayerful thought.

God Bless,
Pat

Your point is well taken but on the issue of euchumenicalism, if that is what you are refering too, I feel that there is one serious stumbling block and that is the magesterium. If I understand it correctly than it states that where the church is decided on a doctrinal issue it cannot err. That says to me that the RCC cannot in theory be wrong. So the RCC cannot go back on the teachings of Trent that condemed any Reformed view of things. Now in practice the Reformed church and the RCC are very similer in this regard. We have our own confessions that are binding and that we believe are the correct biblical teachings in these matters and we have a historical (tradition if you will) understanding of things (that is that Reformed teachers have thought of things in similer ways). But we in theory can be wrong.

Our ecclesiologies are too different as well to merit reconciliation. But you are right that all Christians should seek and pray for unity. As a postmillianalist I beleive that the bible teachs that one day all Christian churchs will unite in a single visible way but it will take time.
 
Your point is well taken but on the issue of euchumenicalism, if that is what you are refering too, I feel that there is one serious stumbling block and that is the magesterium. If I understand it correctly than it states that where the church is decided on a doctrinal issue it cannot err. That says to me that the RCC cannot in theory be wrong. So the RCC cannot go back on the teachings of Trent that condemed any Reformed view of things. Now in practice the Reformed church and the RCC are very similer in this regard. We have our own confessions that are binding and that we believe are the correct biblical teachings in these matters and we have a historical (tradition if you will) understanding of things (that is that Reformed teachers have thought of things in similer ways). But we in theory can be wrong.

Our ecclesiologies are too different as well to merit reconciliation. But you are right that all Christians should seek and pray for unity. As a postmillianalist I beleive that the bible teachs that one day all Christian churchs will unite in a single visible way but it will take time.
I agree. we should pray for the day all Christians will once again unite in a single visible way. May the Lord hasten it even in our lifte time. Peace and prayers for you. I may disagree with you on many things, but that does not mean we are not family in the broader sense. 👍
 
=jwright82;7552600]Your point is well taken but on the issue of euchumenicalism, if that is what you are refering too, I feel that there is one serious stumbling block and that is the magesterium. If I understand it correctly than it states that where the church is decided on a doctrinal issue it cannot err. That says to me that the RCC cannot in theory be wrong. So the RCC cannot go back on the teachings of Trent that condemed any Reformed view of things. Now in practice the Reformed church and the RCC are very similer in this regard. We have our own confessions that are binding and that we believe are the correct biblical teachings in these matters and we have a historical (tradition if you will) understanding of things (that is that Reformed teachers have thought of things in similer ways). But we in theory can be wrong.
Our ecclesiologies are too different as well to merit reconciliation. But you are right that all Christians should seek and pray for unity. As a postmillianalist I beleive that the bible teachs that one day all Christian churchs will unite in a single visible way but it will take time.
Perhaps I can clarify your understanding?

The Magisterium consist of all the Bishops in the World- wide CC who support and take direction from the Pope. ONLY If a Teaching is on the topics of Faith and or Morals, then that Teaching MUST be held and accepted. Even IF NOT PROCLAIMED AS INFALLIBLE.

Canon law specifies that ALL “Infallible pronouncements” must be expressly articulated as such, and again ONLY on Faith and Moral issues.

The Magistriums authority steems from UNITY with the Pope; however the Pope can also make an infalible proclaimation on his own authorty. God Himself warrants the TRUTH of these teaching. [John14: 16-17 and John 17:15-19].

Let us pray for unity:

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.”

God Bless,
Pat
 
I agree. we should pray for the day all Christians will once again unite in a single visible way. May the Lord hasten it even in our lifte time. Peace and prayers for you. I may disagree with you on many things, but that does not mean we are not family in the broader sense. 👍
I really couldn’t agree more!
 
Perhaps I can clarify your understanding?

The Magisterium consist of all the Bishops in the World- wide CC who support and take direction from the Pope. ONLY If a Teaching is on the topics of Faith and or Morals, then that Teaching MUST be held and accepted. Even IF NOT PROCLAIMED AS INFALLIBLE.

Canon law specifies that ALL “Infallible pronouncements” must be expressly articulated as such, and again ONLY on Faith and Moral issues.

The Magistriums authority steems from UNITY with the Pope; however the Pope can also make an infalible proclaimation on his own authorty. God Himself warrants the TRUTH of these teaching. [John14: 16-17 and John 17:15-19].

Let us pray for unity:

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.”

God Bless,
Pat
You really only prove my point. Unless a church conforms to the teaching of the Pope on matters of faith or morals they are not teaching the truth. That implies that the Catholic church cannot be wrong on these issues in principle.
 
=jwright82;7569246]You really only prove my point. Unless a church conforms to the teaching of the Pope on matters of faith or morals they are not teaching the truth. That implies that the Catholic church cannot be wrong on these issues in principle.
My friend, if my previous only “implied” that the CC cannot [absolute impossibility], then I failed to make my point strongly enough.

Here is BOTH “How and Why” this is true:

**Eph.3: 9 to 12 ** “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: THEE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him. “

** 2nd. Tim. 3:16** ***All scripture is inspired by God ***and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work"

**2 Cor. 4: 2 **“We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing."

**2 Peter 3: 14 –17 14 **“Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures”

**John 16:12 **"Jesus speaking to the Apostles] "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth;”

**John 14: 16-17 ** " And I [Jesus] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

John 17: 14-19 “" I [Jesus] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. ***And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” ***

These last two passages give clear and spcific verification to my pontification; AND apply ONLY to Christ Catholic Church, which is evident because while there were Synaogs for Jews, Temples for heathens, there was ONLY today’s CC for Christians, whn these promises were made by God himself; regarding TRUTH of ALL Teachings on Faith and Morals.

My friend, either the Bible is COMPLETELY TRUE; or it has no value in teaching the Christian Faith.

God Bless you,
Pat
 
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