Calvinists Question

[Kei]

They are the children of Abraham with whom God formed a pact, a people who would adopt His Law and thus soften the hearts of the gentiles. Then, at the appropriate time, the Son of God came, born of a Jewish woman, and make Jew and gentile one.

 

[ATraveller]

Faith can only be given by God and faith without good works is no faith at all. Good works are outwardly signs of what’s happening inside. More or less along those lines. I’m not a Calvinist.

You don’t know if you’re the elect or not in Calvinism

That doesn’t seem too different than the Catholic view on the fate of individuals. You may get an idea based on external things but we have no way of truly knowing what’s going on in one’s heart, only God does.

 

[Kei]

Yes, in Catholicism we do not know. The author of what has been called the fifth Gospel, the Imitation of Christ, was a very saintly man but cannot be canonized because he was buried alive and we don’t know what happened afterwards as no one was there, for instance.

I was answering a question someone had on why they would do good works and what not.

 

[Darryl_B]

Those are the initial tenets, but as a consequence of those tenets, there are certain implications derived from them which have produced in varying degrees further inferences which have led to actions. The most significant is the separatist puritan, which has produced the splitting and splitting and splitting into smaller and smaller groups. Calvin is largely responsible for the individual church (when I say individual church I mean the individual is the church). When they claim 40000 denominations they are really just Calvinists who split from each other, they are all the same really, but they won’t talk among themselves, and we are seriously running out of names for their churches.

 

[jericho777]

That’s exactly the point. God chose them, they didn’t choose God. Because if His covenant with Abraham they were elect. None of the other nations in the world had a relationship with YHWH God.

 

[Kei]

Well, at least not in the same way. But doubtless God has made some truth leading to Him in the other faith; it is suspected the 3 wise men were Zoroastrians, for instance.
But, do you know the story of Abraham? Yes, it is all by God’s Grace, but Abraham had to agree to the covenant and allow the grace to work in him. Do you know what happened to Abraham? In Jewish tradition, Abraham was son of idol maker. One day, he smashed all the idols. His father was surprised. Abraham said the idols fought each other. His father said, they aren’t alive, they cannot fight each other. Abraham said, then why do you worship them?
He was taken eventually to a ruler of the land. He argued that there was only One God. The elements all defeated each other. Fire was defeated by water, for instance, but you shouldn’t worship the water, for it is also defeated.
Rather, only the One God should be worshipped.
A covenant kinda has to be between the two parties to be valid I would think.

 

[Vonsalza]

How then do you explain God’s love for Israel and rejecting every other people and nation?
Dt 7:6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

With respect, how is this Calvin’s election?

Are you arguing that all of the people in Israel were predestined to ultimate salvation and that none were damned? Because that’s not how I read that text.

 

[Vonsalza]

None of the other nations in the world had a relationship with YHWH God.

Whoa whoa whoa.

God chose Israel. With ya 100%.

But where does scripture state that God was absent elsewhere on the Earth? This sounds like an addition created to reinforce a particular belief and not something actually found in scripture.

But if I’m wrong on that, happy to say so.

 

[jericho777]

qqqqq

But, do you know the story of Abraham? Yes, it is all by God’s Grace, but Abraham had to agree to the covenant and allow the grace to work in him.

Remember God put Abraham to sleep and made the covenant with Himself because He could swear by no greater name than Himself. It was God who instituted it and will carry it out because man is not capable of upholding his end of the covenant. This is all to Glorify His Name.

 

[MichaelP3]

The idea is based on an elected part of humanity. And the question is there as to why Israel? Nobody knows but they were surely “chosen”.

 

[jericho777]

jericho777:

None of the other nations in the world had a relationship with YHWH God.

Whoa whoa whoa.

God chose Israel. With ya 100%.

But where does scripture state that God was absent elsewhere on the Earth? This sounds like an addition created to reinforce a particular belief and not something actually found in scripture.

But if I’m wrong on that, happy to say so.

God chose only Israel to be His people according to Dt 7:6 b The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, His treasured possession.

There are few examples in scripture of non Jews coming to faith in YHWH God prior to Jesus giving the great commission. If you know of more please show me as I too am willing to learn.

 

[Kei]

God chose the descendents of Abraham to be His chosen people from which the Son of God would come and take human flesh. They no longer are special as Christ has made Jew and Gentile one.
Abraham is the one He made the covenant with, after all.

But remember, God can make the children of Abraham come from rocks!

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

jericho777:

None of the other nations in the world had a relationship with YHWH God.

Whoa whoa whoa.

God chose Israel. With ya 100%.

But where does scripture state that God was absent elsewhere on the Earth? This sounds like an addition created to reinforce a particular belief and not something actually found in scripture.

But if I’m wrong on that, happy to say so.

God chose only Israel to be His people according to Dt 7:6 b The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, His treasured possession.

There are few examples in scripture of non Jews coming to faith in YHWH God prior to Jesus giving the great commission. If you know of more please show me as I too am willing to learn.

You and @MichaelP3 had a similar concern, so I’ll reply to both in one post.

Again, I have zero problem with the idea that Israel was chosen to be God’s people. None at all.

But to also say, essentially, “…and that means he was absent from the other peoples of the Earth.” doesn’t seem to enjoy a scriptural basis. Frankly, it seems like an off-the-cuff addition meant to reinforce a specific interpretation.

It’s no secret that I think that’s exactly what it is.

But you’re the guys trying to forward the idea of God’s exclusive attention. It’s up to you to prove “None of the other nations in the world had a relationship with YHWH God.” I don’t think there’s much in the way of scripture to help you do that though…

 

[MichaelP3]

Again, I have zero problem with the idea that Israel was chosen to be God’s people. None at all.

Oh no. I didn’t say anything else. If you are saying this we are in agreement.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Again, I have zero problem with the idea that Israel was chosen to be God’s people. None at all.

Oh no. I didn’t say anything else. If you are saying this we are in agreement.

Mea culpa!

I’ve just seen @jericho777 's idea tossed around since my Calvinist days. The notion that God would create wider humanity and then withhold his grace from everyone except Israel seems conflicted to me. Everyone else would be quite literally born damned, which most Calvinists seem to balk at.

But as a corporate entity (in the theological sense)? Yes, Israel was obviously preferred.

Devil’s in the details, I suppose.

 

[jericho777]

If God chose the Jews out of ALL the peoples on the face of the earth to be His people to me that’s pretty obvious they are not having a relationship with God. That’s what scripture says anyway.

 

[Vonsalza]

…to me that’s pretty obvious they are not having a relationship with God.

That’s what scripture says anyway.

Yeah that’s the problem. I can’t find where scripture actually says that.

 

[jericho777]

Everyone does not get the same amount of grace from God. This is evident from scripture. Some get first hand grace such as Abraham, Moses, St Paul and others. God appeared to them revealing His purpose to them.

And yes everyone is born damned because of the sin of Adam. That is the default unless God grants them repentance.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[Vonsalza]

Everyone does not get the same amount of grace from God. This is evident from scripture.

Sure. I’m just waiting on that scripture reference that indicates that non-Jews got none.

You seem to have difficulty finding it.

 

[jericho777]

And I don’t see a scripture that says non Jews got the same grace either. Just look at the world history and show me a nation or people that recognized, worshiped or were led by YHWH God as the Jews were before Jesus.