Calvinists Question

[TheLegend]

There is a scriptural basis for the Jews being the only people lead by God .
There is a scriptural reference for what happens when God allowed His grace upon non Jews.
Jonas chapter 3.

 

[Vonsalza]

And I don’t see a scripture that says non Jews got the same grace either. Just look at the world history and show me a nation or people that recognized, worshiped or were led by YHWH God as the Jews were before Jesus.

Excellent.

Then the conclusion we must draw is that any grace or lack of grace shown non-Jews isn’t covered in scripture and is thus speculative conjecture at very very best.

Now, it would fit awesome with your theological system if non-Jews were withheld grace, but as we’ve pointed out here in abundance - such a notion is totally absent from the scripture record.

 

[jericho777]

There is a scriptural basis for the Jews being the only people lead by God .
There is a scriptural reference for what happens when God allowed His grace upon non Jews.
Jonas chapter 3.

God’s grace was evident in Jonah. There are few examples in scripture of this.

 

[jericho777]

jericho777:

And I don’t see a scripture that says non Jews got the same grace either. Just look at the world history and show me a nation or people that recognized, worshiped or were led by YHWH God as the Jews were before Jesus.

Excellent.

Then the conclusion we must draw is that any grace or lack of grace shown non-Jews isn’t covered in scripture and is thus speculative conjecture at very very best.

Now, it would fit awesome with your theological system if non-Jews were withheld grace, but as we’ve pointed out here in abundance - such a notion is totally absent from the scripture record.

I’m not trying to withhold grace or create a some theological system.

What does God’s grace provide to people? A knowledge of Him, a changed life and salvation. The world has none of that. The scripture verse that proves this is the bible itself. Does any other people on the face have the word of God? Has He prophesied good over them? Did He deliver Egypt from bondage? Did He deliver Goliath from David? No, no and no! You have created a false premise which contradicts scripture itself.

 

[Vonsalza]

The scripture verse that proves this is the bible itself.

This argument is used by virtually everyone in defense of some aspect of their theological systems.

As such, it’s a useless argument for a unique truth claim.

 

[jericho777]

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The scripture verse that proves this is the bible itself.

This argument is used by virtually everyone in defense of some aspect of their theological systems.

As such, it’s a useless argument for a unique truth claim.

I have used the facts at hand and the bible itself is a valid evidence. Also world history and reasoning through the evidences at hand. You have presented zero scripture or facts to support you position. Never mind you dismissed out of hand my arguments without a single countering point. It is clear to anyone who is intellectually honest your position is untenable.

 

[Vonsalza]

@Jericho777 My position is merely that we do not know whether God’s grace was present outside Israel in the OT.

As we learned from statistics, Aristotelian Logic, and the scientific method, “uncertainty” is the default truth claim. Always.

In order to move from that, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. And they never “get to be right unless proven wrong”.

You have simply not met your burden of proof. As such, any theological system attached to your claim becomes less tenable as matter of fact.

 

[jericho777]

You are certain it is unknowable whether God’s grace was present out side of Israel? What do you require as a burden of proof? Merely compare the facts of history and what the bible says about the nations surrounding Israel. That would be a good place to start. It is clear the surrounding nations totally rejected YHWH God and were constantly trying to destroy God’s chosen people.

I feel we have exhausted our conversation on this subject.

 

[Vonsalza]

You are certain it is unknowable whether God’s grace was present out side of Israel?

No, I’m not certain it’s unknowable. Just that it’s presently unknown and we can’t make a credible claim either way.

What do you require as a burden of proof?

Biblical text explicitly saying so, as it pertains to any Protestant claim. And as we pointed out, there isn’t any.

It is clear the surrounding nations totally rejected YHWH God and were constantly trying to destroy God’s chosen people.

It’s also clear that God used non-Jews and other nations in the execution of his will.

I feel we have exhausted our conversation on this subject.

Had fun!

 

[Darryl_B]

Jonah. Why would God care about Ninevah? A city so large, full of souls, and so Gentile, spit, and why would Jonah not care?