H
- Status
R
reteeks21
Guest
Run for office
. Sorry cause I know I’m gonna get it for that one.
. Sorry cause I know I’m gonna get it for that one.
H
HankZ
Guest
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
[/QUOTE]
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
C
Contarini
Guest
H
HankZ
Guest
I will try to do this another way,
God told Noah to come into the Ark. God shut the door. Did Noah have problems while on the Ark? I’m certain he did, how ever hard he fell while in the Ark, he never fell out of the Ark. God sealed him in. Once saved always saved does not mean that we are perfect and no longer struggle with sin. Yes, I ask God for forgiveness when I sin. Not because I’m afraid of Him taking away my salvation, but because I love Him and do not want to sin against my Savior. I would argue this all day that Christians do sin. We are not released from our flesh until death, but we are saved dispite our flesh by God’s grace, which is our Hope.
Please figure out your motive in your line of questioning, are you trying to catch me somehow contraticting myself or are you wanting to know why I believe in election and salvation by faith apart from works. I do not have all the answers, I only have one answer and His name is Jesus Christ. Everything else is so much less important. Unless you can say that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, you are without excuse and are under God’s wrath.
Serving Him,
HankZ
God told Noah to come into the Ark. God shut the door. Did Noah have problems while on the Ark? I’m certain he did, how ever hard he fell while in the Ark, he never fell out of the Ark. God sealed him in. Once saved always saved does not mean that we are perfect and no longer struggle with sin. Yes, I ask God for forgiveness when I sin. Not because I’m afraid of Him taking away my salvation, but because I love Him and do not want to sin against my Savior. I would argue this all day that Christians do sin. We are not released from our flesh until death, but we are saved dispite our flesh by God’s grace, which is our Hope.
Please figure out your motive in your line of questioning, are you trying to catch me somehow contraticting myself or are you wanting to know why I believe in election and salvation by faith apart from works. I do not have all the answers, I only have one answer and His name is Jesus Christ. Everything else is so much less important. Unless you can say that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, you are without excuse and are under God’s wrath.
Serving Him,
HankZ
H
HankZ
Guest
Are you serious?
C
CWBetts
Guest
Actually yes we are. Where does St. Paul ever refer to this as an irrevocable salvation experience?
C
CWBetts
Guest
How is this for a typology: Noah was a type of Christ, as it was through his righteousness that mankind was saved. So if Noah was Christ, then the Ark, the vessel that brought him into a new world is a type of Mary, for it was Mary that was the vessel for Christ.
As to the works issue, we are called to good works, distinct from works of righteousness. Works of righeousness refers to compliance under Mosaic Law. How do you explain Judas Iscariot? He was one of the 12. He healed the sick, cast out demons, etc, but he betrayed Jesus to the Sanhedrin. Once saved, always saved starrts to unravel doesn’t it?
S
severntofall
Guest
It makes more sense when you put it this way. If I understand what you are saying it’s that God holds us to an impossibly high standard and then condemns us to hell when we fail to meet it. Seems fair. We aren’t born deserving of hell, it’s just that none of us could ever earn heaven without God’s direct assistence, and if you don’t go to heaven you go to hell. Hmmmm…still seems pretty twisted to me.The best I’ve ever heard this debate is we have all sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Romans 3:23. Now the issue isn’t are we condemed Hell. That is a very positive, yes! For anyone who disagrees, here is a test;
If you have said yes to even one of those, you have sinned against a Holy, Rightous and Just God and will be found guilty on judgement day. Did God make you break His law? Can anyone now say they do not deserve Hell?
- Have you ever told a lie?
- Have you in your whole life ever taken something that didn’t belong to you?
- Have you ever used the precious name of your Lord in vain?
- Jesus said if you even look at someone with lust, you have commited adultery in your heart. Have you ever looked with lust?
What you describe as rightous and just is sickening to the rest of us (Christians and non-christian alike). BTW, I know most will disagree with this, but I can say that none of us deserve eternal suffering…not a one of us. There is nothing any of us could do to make such a punishment justifiable. Do some of us deserve some degree of punishment…sure, but eternal suffering? Just because a God would condemn us to such a fate does not make it just.
Listen Hank, I’m not saying you’re wrong, I don’t know you could be right. What I am saying is, if you are right, God is evil. To create a species that deserves damnation from the moment it is born and then condemn most of us while saving a select few…it’s sick. If you are right, then God is sick. Now, if there is a God, I pray that he would be merciful enough not to create a system in which we all deserve eternal pain and suffering. The mass majority of humans are at least that decent, why do we assume that God is not?
C
CWBetts
Guest
Some notable exceptions:The best I’ve ever heard this debate is we have all sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Romans 3:23. Now the issue isn’t are we condemed Hell. That is a very positive, yes! For anyone who disagrees, here is a test;
If you have said yes to even one of those, you have sinned against a Holy, Rightous and Just God and will be found guilty on judgement day. Did God make you break His law? Can anyone now say they do not deserve Hell?
- Have you ever told a lie?
- Have you in your whole life ever taken something that didn’t belong to you?
- Have you ever used the precious name of your Lord in vain?
- Jesus said if you even look at someone with lust, you have commited adultery in your heart. Have you ever looked with lust?
Absolutely not, we all have sinned and deserve Hell. Now what God did is He choose before the foundations of the earth, the elect whom He would save from damnation by sending His only begotten Son to suffer and die on the cross in order to pay the ransom of His elect. Paul sums it up best, " All have benefited from Jesus sacrifice on the cross, especially those whom He has choosen." Does that make God bad or does He have the right to choose to save those whom He chooses to save? Who are we to question God?
The question we should be asking is; How is it that our God is so loving and merciful that He will save some people from the eternal punishment they deserve?
I hope this helps.
HankZ
Enoch
Elijah
Mary
H
HankZ
Guest
What you are doing here is creating a God to fit you. That is idolatry. God wrote it with His own finger, “you shall not make for yourself any graven image.” You disagree with God so you creat one that you like better.
Who’s standard are you using, yours or God? Who standard will be used on judgement day, your or God’s?
It all boils down to this, admit you are a sinner in need of a Savior, repent of your sins and Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ alone to save you. You can’t save yourself no matter how much you argue with God.
HankZ
H
HankZ
Guest
God told Anias that He has chosen Saul.
HankZ
S
severntofall
Guest
I’m saying that if God condemns creatures to hell that have no ability to avoid this fate on their own; if he condemns humans to hell merely for being human then that God is evil. I’m not saying this God doesn’t exist, I’m just saying that he’s evil if he does. I think that these are fairly objective standards.
Now, what you have just described is not the predestination that I am familar with. If you can actually affect your salvation by praying to God for salvation that’s somewhat different than salvation being random and predestined.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
That’s a poor analogy. Sorry. You can argue with scripture if you like, but you won’t win!
2 Chronicles 15:2 “If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you”.
Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”
2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.
2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”
1 Timothy 1:19 “Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked”.
Hebrews 2:1 “Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away”.
H
HankZ
Guest
Don’t stop now!.:bounce:
This is what I wanted to accomplish.
Read that bible everyday. You will never regret it. No one has ever said on their death bed, I spent too much time in the bible.HankZ
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Addrees what I posted or admit that your dogma is unscriptural.Don’t stop now!.:bounce:
This is what I wanted to accomplish.
HankZ
You know the truth, don’t fight it!
B
brkn1
Guest
That is terrible typology. Mary did not save Christ. Christ saved Mary. Christ did not need salvation.
Judas Iscariot was chosen by God even though God knew that he was a “devil”. Doing “good works” to merit salvation is disproven by your example of Judas Iscariot, instead of disproving the OSAS position. A “devil”, as Judas was described by Jesus, could never be considered saved in the first place.
F
flameburns623
Guest
One of the points that ‘hard’ predestinarianism tries to make is that God is truly God–He is wholly ‘Other’ in a sense that puts Him beyond our ability to judge Him in any way except to accept Him for what He reveals to us about Himself. Since He has revealed that He is good, therefore, this is what He is–good–even if His goodness includes the decision to create a world where he knows that none of the human beings He creates deserve to ever experience His presence, and where He will have to pick-and-choose some among those humans if any of them are to experience Heaven. We are culpable for our sins, say the Calvinists, and it is impossible for God to ever be counted as wicked for ‘making us evil’. Even if we do not understand how this can be true.
Part of the clue to how this is so can be apprehended, if not comprehended, if you put aside the notion that God arbitrarily picks some, at random, to be Elect. God does not choose ‘randomly’ or willy-nilly. He does not choose the Elect based upon the innate goodness of some human beings or based on the greater intrinsic evil of some others. His choice is for reasons and purposes outside of the relative merits or demerits of those whom He chooses. But He does have reasons–his choices are not random or arbitrary. He simply does not reveal to us the reasons for His choices.
The “Jesus prayer” arrangement of petitioning God for salvation never originally envisioned that one was actually being saved through that prayer. In the days of the “mourner’s bench” and of “praying through” to one’ salvation, the idea really was that one was seeking an inward testimony from God that one was already one of His Elect. That one already had within one the Holy Ghost bearing testimony within one’s soul. One started with an abject awareness of one’s own wretchedness and unworthiness–sermons such as “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” were designed to awaken such an awareness in people–and based on one’s grief and sorrow over this, one presented oneself to the congregation and prayed, week-after-week for God’s Spirit to reveal Himself in one’s life. The testimony of one’s salvation, if it ever came, did not represent the moment one was actually saved–the Elect were elect from before all time–but was only the moment which God revealed Himself to a particular member of the Elect.
Even if some never experienced this sense of one’s own election, they might nonetheless be a member of the Elect; and it was understood that some who professed to have received revelation of such Election might be mistaken, might be self-deluded, etcetera. One still was expected to show forth ‘fruits meet for repentance’–outward sign of spiritual growth in obedience and conformity to God’s will. And even these two things together–the inner testimony which was the result of a successful “praying through”, together with outward evidence of a Godly lifestyle–are only ‘evidences’ of election. Those evidences could be counterfeited or mistaken in some cases.
Over time, the whole idea of ‘praying through’ got whittled down into something simpler and less elaborate: the simple acceptance that God’s Word is true and that anyone who sincerely appropriates that Word to themselves is showing forth firstfruits of salvation. If they go on to persevere, this would be strong probabilistic evidence that they were indeed members of the Elect. Hence the evolution of the “Jesus prayer”.
- Status