Calvinists, What Can I do to Assure My Election?

[flameburns623]

Calvinist understanding of predestination falls into two camps:

1. Those who believe that God chooses only an Elect from among the human race to go to Heaven, but does not actively condemn those who are not Elect to Hell. This position is very close the that of the Catholic Church and depending upon how it is formulated may not be heretical. It has been argued that if this were the position of Luther and Calvin, the disputes of the 16th century may have been more over words than over substance and the Reformation might have been avoided had all sides taken greater care to understand the other. What gets misunderstood in this position as it is formulated by Protestant thinkers is that God chooses the Elect NOT based upon their merits but according to His own good will and purpose, for reasons known only to Him. Those who are Elect are no more ‘deserving’ of that election than those who miss being Elect.
2. Those who believe that God actively–and not only permissively–elects at least some portion of the human race to Hell. This is the double-predestination position which was clearly rejected by Trent and which appears in at least some of the writings of Calvin and Luther to be the doctrine they were propounding. What gets misunderstood in this position is that Calvinists say that God condemns those who are predestined to Hell because in some way that He has not revealed to us, those who go to Hell are culpable for their own sinfulness. It is a mystery for Calvinists how one can be ‘culpable’ for one’s sins if one is not ‘free’.

So Calvinism does not really resolve the issue of the ‘mystery of salvation’–it simply shifts it around:

**For Catholics, the ‘mystery of salvation’ is that all who go to Heaven were ultimately predestined to go there–and yet they achieve Heavenly glory in some way that preserves their essential freedom. **

For Calvinists, all who go to Hell are truly responsible for the sins which send them there, even though they were not essentially free to choose other than to sin.

Hope that isn’t too mystical for folks.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Calvinist understanding of predestination falls into two camps:

1. Those who believe that God chooses only an Elect from among the human race to go to Heaven, but does not actively condemn those who are not Elect to Hell. This position is very close the that of the Catholic Church and depending upon how it is formulated may not be heretical. It has been argued that if this were the position of Luther and Calvin, the disputes of the 16th century may have been more over words than over substance and the Reformation might have been avoided had all sides taken greater care to understand the other. What gets misunderstood in this position as it is formulated by Protestant thinkers is that God chooses the Elect NOT based upon their merits but according to His own good will and purpose, for reasons known only to Him. Those who are Elect are no more ‘deserving’ of that election than those who miss being Elect.
2. Those who believe that God actively–and not only permissively–elects at least some portion of the human race to Hell. This is the double-predestination position which was clearly rejected by Trent and which appears in at least some of the writings of Calvin and Luther to be the doctrine they were propounding. What gets misunderstood in this position is that Calvinists say that God condemns those who are predestined to Hell because in some way that He has not revealed to us, those who go to Hell are culpable for their own sinfulness. It is a mystery for Calvinists how one can be ‘culpable’ for one’s sins if one is not ‘free’.

So Calvinism does not really resolve the issue of the ‘mystery of salvation’–it simply shifts it around:

**For Catholics, the ‘mystery of salvation’ is that all who go to Heaven were ultimately predestined to go there–and yet they achieve Heavenly glory in some way that preserves their essential freedom. **

For Calvinists, all who go to Hell are truly responsible for the sins which send them there, even though they were not essentially free to choose other than to sin.

Hope that isn’t too mystical for folks.

I think that is the most concise analysis of this complicated issue I’ve ever read!

Well done.

 

[severntofall]

That always trips them up.

Sometimes they respond that the predetermined unpreventable torture of millions of people is necessary to demonstate God’s glory and justice.

Hmmm… Not buying it!

Inevitably, predestination means that God is evil. They don’t like to be reminded that they worship the divine equivalent of Hitler.

 

[HankZ]

The best I’ve ever heard this debate is we have all sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Romans 3:23. Now the issue isn’t are we condemed Hell. That is a very positive, yes! For anyone who disagrees, here is a test;

1. Have you ever told a lie?
   
2. Have you in your whole life ever taken something that didn’t belong to you?
   
3. Have you ever used the precious name of your Lord in vain?
   
4. Jesus said if you even look at someone with lust, you have commited adultery in your heart. Have you ever looked with lust?
   

If you have said yes to even one of those, you have sinned against a Holy, Rightous and Just God and will be found guilty on judgement day. Did God make you break His law? Can anyone now say they do not deserve Hell?
Absolutely not, we all have sinned and deserve Hell. Now what God did is He choose before the foundations of the earth, the elect whom He would save from damnation by sending His only begotten Son to suffer and die on the cross in order to pay the ransom of His elect. Paul sums it up best, " All have benefited from Jesus sacrifice on the cross, especially those whom He has choosen." Does that make God bad or does He have the right to choose to save those whom He chooses to save? Who are we to question God?

The question we should be asking is; How is it that our God is so loving and merciful that He will save some people from the eternal punishment they deserve?

I hope this helps.
HankZ

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The best I’ve ever heard this debate is we have all sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Romans 3:23. Now the issue isn’t are we condemed Hell. That is a very positive, yes! For anyone who disagrees, here is a test;

1. Have you ever told a lie?
   

We deserve hell for acting as God created us to act? Were any of us created without original sin?

Now what God did is He choose before the foundations of the earth, the elect whom He would save from damnation by sending His only begotten Son to suffer and die on the cross in order to pay the ransom of His elect. Paul sums it up best, " All have benefited from Jesus sacrifice on the cross, especially those whom He has choosen." Does that make God bad or does He have the right to choose to save those whom He chooses to save? Who are we to question God?

It makes him bad if he, by design, created billions of people for eternal suffering because they acted according to the nature they were created with.

The question we should be asking is; How is it that our God is so loving and merciful that He will save some people from the eternal punishment they deserve?

I hope this helps.
HankZ

It helps confirm my opinion of Calvinism, if that is what you mean.

What makes you think you aren’t destined for hell? What say do you have in the matter?/QUOTE]

 

[HankZ]

It helps confirm my opinion of Calvinism, if that is what you mean.
What makes you think you aren’t destined for hell? What say do you have in the matter?/

 

[CWBetts]

Hank, you can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint salvaition like that. Salvation is an ongoing process. You strive to do better, avoid sin, obtain grace throug the scarements. There is no “poof” moment. I used to believe as you did, but then I learned to take the Bible, not verse by verse, but as a whole, and I see that our salvation is a journey, not a trip in a teleporter.

 

[HankZ]

Hank, you can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint salvaition like that. Salvation is an ongoing process. You strive to do better, avoid sin, obtain grace throug the scarements. There is no “poof” moment. I used to believe as you did, but then I learned to take the Bible, not verse by verse, but as a whole, and I see that our salvation is a journey, not a trip in a teleporter.

For me, salvation was a “poof” moment. I was there and remember it very well. This is the reason I know that I am saved. Just as Peter was given the revolation from the Father of who Jesus was when He asked, “Whom do you say that I am?”
Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” Was this not a poof moment? How about Saul on Damascus road? Is that “Poof” not how God has worked or do we tell God how he can work? I think you were closer to the truth when you believed God could work in mysterious ways.
HankZ

 

[CWBetts]

For me, salvation was a “poof” moment. I was there and remember it very well. This is the reason I know that I am saved. Just as Peter was given the revolation from the Father of who Jesus was when He asked, “Whom do you say that I am?”
Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” Was this not a poof moment? How about Saul on Damascus road? Is that “Poof” not how God has worked or do we tell God how he can work? I think you were closer to the truth when you believed God could work in mysterious ways.
HankZ

The “once saved, always saved” instantaneous salvation is absolutely unscriptural. St. Paul did not speak of his intantaneous salvation but og his HOPE. He never once indicated he had eternal security, in fact he talked of falling and of his continual grawth and need for improvement. How many times did Jesus talk about what we must DO. The intantaneous salvation crowd needs to read to the end of John 3, and not just stop at verse 16.

 

[HankZ]

The “once saved, always saved” instantaneous salvation is absolutely unscriptural. St. Paul did not speak of his intantaneous salvation but og his HOPE. He never once indicated he had eternal security, in fact he talked of falling and of his continual grawth and need for improvement. How many times did Jesus talk about what we must DO. The intantaneous salvation crowd needs to read to the end of John 3, and not just stop at verse 16.

If you think I have somehow learned from others what I know, you are sadly mistaken. I have found my beliefs in scripture. I do not trust anyone with my soul except for Christ, not even myself. I know that God will reveal Himself to those who are willing to search. What ever you think you know, give it over to God and seach for what He has to say.

John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; Whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

What could you possibly get from this that indicates a works form of salvation. If you believe in the Son, you are saved. Only after you are right with God by accepting Jesus payment for your sins, can you obey Jesus’ commands. I find nothing contrary to salvation by faith alone.
HankZ

 

[CWBetts]

If you think I have somehow learned from others what I know, you are sadly mistaken. I have found my beliefs in scripture. I do not trust anyone with my soul except for Christ, not even myself. I know that God will reveal Himself to those who are willing to search. What ever you think you know, give it over to God and seach for what He has to say.

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; Whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
What could you possibly get from this that indicates a works form of salvation. If you believe in the Son, you are saved. Only after you are right with God by accepting Jesus payment for your sins, can you obey Jesus’ commands. I find nothing contrary to salvation by faith alone.
HankZ

You miss that “obey” part. Simple belief is not enough. And self-interpretation of the scriptures is dangerous.

 

[CWBetts]

And furthermore, you are the second Protestant who has been so bold to make assumptions about my faith (or lack thereof) in a very short priod of time. You presume much.

 

[HankZ]

You miss that “obey” part. Simple belief is not enough. And self-interpretation of the scriptures is dangerous.

Without a right relationship, your good deeds are as filthy rags. How can someone throw filthy rags to God and say here you go, this is how good I’ve followed you. You can feed thousands, buy them all homes, and give everyone of them a job, but unless your Hope is in Christ as your personal savior, your adding to the wrath that God will dish out on the day of judgement. That means your attempted good deeds will be held against you on the day of judgement if you are not under God’s grace which can only be gotten through faith in Jesus.

I don’t think you are ubderstanding what is written. This verse is broken into 2 parts;

1. Who ever believes in the son has eternal life,
2. whoever does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
3. If you believe, then you will auotmatically want to please God from a heart of love for your savior.
4. You are an enemy of God and do not have the ability to obey Him.

You are right about self interpitation. That is one reason God sends His Holy Spirit so that He can lead us into all truths as the scripture says.
I don’t like to argue about things that seem so obvious to me. I’m sorry if I am not doing a good job at explaining myself. I hope you search the bible for what God has to tell you. Asking for God to give you the Holy Spirit to help you understand may be a good place to start.
May He reveal Himself to you,
HankZ

 

[HankZ]

And furthermore, you are the second Protestant who has been so bold to make assumptions about my faith (or lack thereof) in a very short priod of time. You presume much.

I intended no such insult and I am very sorry for doing so. You did however place me into a group of

The intantaneous salvation crowd needs to read to the end of John 3, and not just stop at verse 16.

of which I can understand your resentment of such a claim. I would like to tell you that this was an experience, not an idea or teaching. I have the assurance of salvation due to my experience and thank God that He gave that to me. Others may question me, but I know beyond anything.
HankZ

 

[CWBetts]

Without a right relationship, your good deeds are as filthy rags. How can someone throw filthy rags to God and say here you go, this is how good I’ve followed you. You can feed thousands, buy them all homes, and give everyone of them a job, but unless your Hope is in Christ as your personal savior, your adding to the wrath that God will dish out on the day of judgement. That means your attempted good deeds will be held against you on the day of judgement if you are not under God’s grace which can only be gotten through faith in Jesus.

I don’t think you are ubderstanding what is written. This verse is broken into 2 parts;

1. Who ever believes in the son has eternal life,
2. whoever does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
3. If you believe, then you will auotmatically want to please God from a heart of love for your savior.
4. You are an enemy of God and do not have the ability to obey Him.

You are right about self interpitation. That is one reason God sends His Holy Spirit so that He can lead us into all truths as the scripture says.
I don’t like to argue about things that seem so obvious to me. I’m sorry if I am not doing a good job at explaining myself. I hope you search the bible for what God has to tell you. Asking for God to give you the Holy Spirit to help you understand may be a good place to start.
May He reveal Himself to you,
HankZ

I think you have a misconception on what the Church teaches on salvation.

1. We are saved by grace through faith
2. We are awarded grace, though this grace is never merited throgh the seven sacrements: Baptism, Reconciilliation and Penance, Holy Communion, Confirmation, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Holy Matrimony.
3. Salvation is not based on an experience but is a journey of growth.

That is the abridged version, mostly because tu type all of our doctrines and dogmas would be problematic.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4509428:

What I’m seeing is that God made you lie, steal, lust, use His name in vain, right?

That’s what you see in Calvinism, yes. Catholics believe that we are inclined to sin in our fallen state, but that we can overcome this inclination through grace and be forgiven when we fail.

How very sad that you blaim God for your sin. God does not tempt nor is God tempted, so how is it you blaim Him for your rebelious behavior? Do you not see He gave you a way to be saved from your sins? Are you going to refuse His offer of forgiveness of your sins?

Why does God forgive your sins? What do you do for forgiveness?

Does God forgive your sins if you don’t confess them?

Does God forgive your sins if you plan to keep repeating them?

 

[HankZ]

I think you have a misconception on what the Church teaches on salvation.

1. We are saved by grace through faith
2. We are awarded grace, though this grace is never merited throgh the seven sacrements: Baptism, Reconciilliation and Penance, Holy Communion, Confirmation, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Holy Matrimony.
3. Salvation is not based on an experience but is a journey of growth.

That is the abridged version, mostly because tu type all of our doctrines and dogmas would be problematic.

Where can you find these claims?

Does that make Paul’s salvation false? That was unquestionably an experience. He wanted nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. He was on that road with the sole purpose of his mission to kill and/or arrest anyone who professed faith in Christ. Paul was saved by God’s election. After he was saved, he wanted to do obey God by going into the world to proclaim the Gospel of Christ. Christ died once for all so that some could be saved, not so some could work out their own salvation. This teaching is not found in scripture. Seach the scriptures to prove your points as did the Barians that Paul spoke so eloquently about. He did not comend them for following him whole heartedly with no regard to truth, he spoke of how proud of them he was because they after hearing him, would search the scriptures for God’s word to agree or disagree with Paul’s claims. That is what we are called to do today as well.

Anything I say, I would hope you also would search in the scriptures where it is found and test me or anyone who tells you anything pertaining to God, Jesus, the Kingdom, Sacraments or any other teaching whether true or false. Since Paul gave the Barians praise for checking his teaching for truth, shouldn’t you too?

HankZ

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Where can you find these claims?

Does that make Paul’s salvation false? That was unquestionably an experience. He wanted nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. He was on that road with the sole purpose of his mission to kill and/or arrest anyone who professed faith in Christ. Paul was saved by God’s election.

 

[HankZ]

HankZ;4509541:

CHESTERTONRULES;4509428:

That’s what you see in Calvinism, yes. Catholics believe that we are inclined to sin in our fallen state, but that we can overcome this inclination through grace and be forgiven when we fail.

Why does God forgive your sins? What do you do for forgiveness?

Does God forgive your sins if you don’t confess them?

Does God forgive your sins if you plan to keep repeating them?

Do not be so presumtous as to tell me my opinion or thoughts. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we all have a choice. Until God saves us, we do chose to always sin. The devil choses to lie because that is his nature, he is a liar and the father of all lies. You and I are sinners and sin comes natural. It’s what we chose to do. The difference we seem to be having is that you believe God made man only to destroy him and I believe that God made man to whorship and glorify Himself. Adam chose to sin against the God who gave him life, breath, a wife, food and a purpose. Adam spit it in God’s face with the idea that he knew better than God and CHOSE to sin against Him by his disobedience.

God offers forgiveness of sin because He wants to. John 3:16. He loved us so much that He became a man only to suffer for your sins and mine. He knew we were doomed without His intervention in our lives.

You accept His free gift of forgiveness.

I think “if” questions are a waist of time.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4510496:

HankZ;4509541:

I think “if” questions are a waist of time.

Perhaps you just don’t want to think about the implications.

I’ll try again:

Why does God forgive your sins? What do you do for forgiveness?

Does God forgive your sins if you don’t confess them?

Does God forgive your sins if you plan to keep repeating them?