Calvin's police state - 'ORDINANCES FOR THE SUPERVISION OF CHURCHES IN THE COUNTRY', February 3, 1547.

[raumzeitmc2]

In a letter to a Mrs. Anna Locke, December 9, 1556, John Knox referred to Calvin’s Geneva as the “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst that ever was in the erth since the dayis of the Apostillis” (“the most perfect school of Christ that ever was on earth since the days of the Apostles”).

Quite a statement indeed! But you judge.

Here a sampling of life under Calvin’s “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst.” Would anyone here willfully want to be forced to live under the following rules, or to be punished for not heeding them?

ORDINANCES FOR THE SUPERVISION OF CHURCHES IN THE COUNTRY, February 3, 1547.

Ordinances for the Supervision of the Churches dependent on the Seigneury of Geneva, which is advised be put in force, subject to the complete discretion of their Lordships.

SERMONS.

I. Everyone … is to come on Sundays, unless it be necessary … to take care of children or animals, under penalty of 3 sous.

1. Everyone is to be present at Sermon when the prayer is begun, under penalty as above, unless he absent himself for legitimate reason.

PENALTIES.

I. Those who fail in their duty of coming are to be admonished by the Guardians…

1. If after intimation they continue to default, they are to be fined three groats, for each time…

1. If anyone come after Sermon has begun, he is to be admonished, and if after this is done he does not amend, for each fault he is to be fined three sous…

1. If during Sermon anyone make any disturbance…he is to be reported to their Lordships to be punished appropriately.

BY WHOM FINES ARE TO BE EXACTED.

I. The local lord, in conjunction with the Ministers and the Guardians, is to oblige the delinquents to pay the fines they have incurred… Legitimate excuses are to be admitted, but this is to be done without any formal procedure.

1. If there be any so rebellious that, despite the above fines, they do not at all amend, they are to be reported to the Consistory with advice to the effect that their Lordships punish them according to the seriousness of their obstinacy.

OF BAPTISM.

1. As to names … be careful both to avoid all superstition and idolatry and to remove from the Church of God everything foolish and indecent.

1. If midwives usurp the office of Baptism, they are to be reproved or chastised according to the measure of fault found … under penalty of being put on bread and water for three days and fined ten sous…

ON THE SUPPER.

I. No one is to be received at the Supper unless…

1. Those who wish to receive the Supper are to come at the beginning of the Service; those who come at the end are not to be received.

1. …

1. All are to remain until the end, unless there be a legitimate excuse which is recognized as above.

OF TIMES OF MEETING AT CHURCH.

Buildings are to remain shut for the rest of the time, in order that no one outside the hours may enter for superstitious reasons. If anyone be found making any particular devotion inside or nearby, he is to be admonished: if it appear to be a superstition which he will not amend, he is to be chastised.

FAULTS CONTRAVENING THE REFORMATION BESIDES THOSE ALREADY MENTIONED.

First, Superstitions.

I. Those who have blasphemed … ought to do reverence for the first time; for the second a penalty of five sous; for the third ten sous; and for the last time put in the pillory for an hour.

1. Anyone who abjures or renounces God or his Baptism is for the first time to be put for ten days on bread and water; for the second time his is to be punished with some more rigorous corporal punishment, at the discretion of the Lordships.

CONTRADICTION OF THE WORD.

I. … any who contradict the Word of God, let them brought before the Consistory to be admonished, or … receive chastisement according to the needs of the case.

1. If the contradiction or rebellion amount to scandal …

DRUNKENNESS.

I. There is to be no treating of one another to drinks, under the penalty of three sous.

1. The taverns are to be close during Service, under penalty that the taverner pay three sous and anyone entering them the same.

1. There are to be no carousals, under the penalty of ten souls.

SONGS AND DANCES.

In anyone sings songs that are unworthily, dissolute or outrageous, or spin wildly round in the dance, or the like, he is to be imprisoned for three days, and then sent to the Consistory.

Etc……

Calvin: Theological Treatises, 1954, J. K. S. Reid, Westminster John Knox Press, ISBN 0664223672 ISBN 9780664223670, pp. 77-81.

Seems Calvin took after, not the meek and humble Christ, but rather, the oppressive and self-righteous Pharisees whom Christ condemned!

“They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”**
Matthew 23:4

And surely Catholic historian William Thomas Walsh was right in saying:

“Calvinism quickly became an international movement, with a world capital at Geneva and with Calvin as a Pope ruling over a city with a regimentation uncomfortably suggestive of some totalitarian state of the future.” (Philip II, p. 249).

 

[TedDC]

In a letter to a Mrs. Anna Locke, December 9, 1556, John Knox referred to Calvin’s Geneva as the “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst that ever was in the erth since the dayis of the Apostillis” (“the most perfect school of Christ that ever was on earth since the days of the Apostles”).

Quite a statement indeed! But you judge.

Here a sampling of life under Calvin’s “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst.” Would anyone here willfully want to be forced to live under the following rules, or to be punished for not heeding them?

Seems Calvin took after, not the meek and humble Christ, but rather, the oppressive and self-righteous Pharisees whom Christ condemned!

“They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”**
Matthew 23:4

And surely Catholic historian William Thomas Walsh was right in saying:

“Calvinism quickly became an international movement, with a world capital at Geneva and with Calvin as a Pope ruling over a city with a regimentation uncomfortably suggestive of some totalitarian state of the future.” (Philip II, p. 249).

Actually those rules sound like things Traditionalists have advocated in this forum!

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Actually those rules sound like things Traditionalists have advocated in this forum!

Traditionalist *Calvinists * perhaps!

LOL!

 

[benidict]

In a letter to a Mrs. Anna Locke, December 9, 1556, John Knox referred to Calvin’s Geneva as the “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst that ever was in the erth since the dayis of the Apostillis” (“the most perfect school of Christ that ever was on earth since the days of the Apostles”).

Quite a statement indeed! But you judge.

Here a sampling of life under Calvin’s “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst.” Would anyone here willfully want to be forced to live under the following rules, or to be punished for not heeding them?

Seems Calvin took after, not the meek and humble Christ, but rather, the oppressive and self-righteous Pharisees whom Christ condemned!

“They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”**
Matthew 23:4

And surely Catholic historian William Thomas Walsh was right in saying:

“Calvinism quickly became an international movement, with a world capital at Geneva and with Calvin as a Pope ruling over a city with a regimentation uncomfortably suggestive of some totalitarian state of the future.” (Philip II, p. 249).

so i have to wonder… where in the bible, did calvin get all these punishments and madates. by whose authority did he come up with these dictatorial rules? after all, we are only going to go by the bible and throw off the man made traditions of Roman Catholocism…right? now i know why my parents were so opposed to dancing, singing anything other than a hymn, and not letting me ride my bicycle on sunday. and omg dont you dare go on a speed boat ride…work of the devil! thank you for this enlightening article. Peace

 

[raumzeitmc2]

so i have to wonder… where in the bible, did calvin get all these punishments and madates. by whose authority did he come up with these dictatorial rules?

Well, remember that ol’ Johnny Calvin, like the third century schismatic Novatian (as holy St. Cyprian tells us) “succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself” (St. Cyprian epistle 75:3). Way to go, Johnny!

But now having sprung from himself, ol’ bossy Calvin next proceeded set up a kind of * rival* Papacy - but one that was essentially a perverse version of an Old Testament theocracy with himself as the new pope!

See for example, The Theology of Calvin By Wilhelm Niesel and Harold Knight where we read:

“The evangelical nation state church and the Christian state as ideally pictured by the Reformed Christians both rest upon the basis of Old Testament theocracy.” p. 104

Calvin of course, had not the slightest authority whatsoever to set up anything - but God help the man or woman who dared oppose his freak show!

As for his teachings? Dear God!! The man was a theological nitwit - *par excellence *! Yet he’s been idolized as a “great reformer” and a “great theologian” by his adoring yet benighted disciples for centuries! Go figure.

But the sad truth is that Calvin was simply a deluded and petty dictator, as theological inept as he was dishonest ! Case in point: To Philip Melanchthon the “Great Preacher” wrote (November 11, 1552):

“Nor, in truth, is it of little importance to prevent the suspicion of any difference having arisen between us from being handed down in any way to our posterity; for it is worse than absurd that parties should be found disagreeing on the very principles, after we have been compelled to make our departure from the world.”

Letters of John Calvin, Jules Bonnet, ed., vol. 2, p. 361.

now i know why my parents were so opposed to dancing, singing anything other than a hymn, and not letting me ride my bicycle on sunday. and omg dont you dare go on a speed boat ride…work of the devil! thank you for this enlightening article. Peace

Well, as for the dancing, maybe they were just concerned that you might “spin wildly round” and get hurt!

What else to do really but just laugh at the abject lunacy of it all!

 

[benidict]

Well, remember that ol’ Johnny Calvin, like the third century schismatic Novatian (as holy St. Cyprian tells us) “succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself” (St. Cyprian epistle 75:3). Way to go, Johnny!

But now having sprung from himself, ol’ bossy Calvin next proceeded set up a kind of * rival* Papacy - but one that was essentially a perverse version of an Old Testament theocracy with himself as the new pope!

See for example, The Theology of Calvin By Wilhelm Niesel and Harold Knight where we read:

“The evangelical nation state church and the Christian state as ideally pictured by the Reformed Christians both rest upon the basis of Old Testament theocracy.” p. 104

Calvin of course, had not the slightest authority whatsoever to set up anything - but God help the man or woman who dared oppose his freak show!

As for his teachings? Dear God!! The man was a theological nitwit - *par excellence *! Yet he’s been idolized as a “great reformer” and a “great theologian” by his adoring yet benighted disciples for centuries! Go figure.

But the sad truth is that Calvin was simply a deluded and petty dictator, as theological inept as he was dishonest ! Case in point: To Philip Melanchthon the “Great Preacher” wrote (November 11, 1552):

“Nor, in truth, is it of little importance to prevent the suspicion of any difference having arisen between us from being handed down in any way to our posterity; for it is worse than absurd that parties should be found disagreeing on the very principles, after we have been compelled to make our departure from the world.”

Letters of John Calvin, Jules Bonnet, ed., vol. 2, p. 361.

Well, as for the dancing, maybe they were just concerned that you might “spin wildly round” and get hurt!

What else to do really but just laugh at the abject lunacy of it all!

yes, you are correct. i can laugh now. but growing up under some of these rules was certainly a drag. good thing they never found my iron maiden poster on the back of my bedroom door. who knows what would have happend… peace

 

[raumzeitmc2]

yes, you are correct. i can laugh now. but growing up under some of these rules was certainly a drag. good thing they never found my iron maiden poster on the back of my bedroom door. who knows what would have happend… peace

Iron Maiden? Why, that’s nothing! I mean, it not like it’s poison or something!

 

[Contarini]

In a letter to a Mrs. Anna Locke, December 9, 1556, John Knox referred to Calvin’s Geneva as the “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst that ever was in the erth since the dayis of the Apostillis” (“the most perfect school of Christ that ever was on earth since the days of the Apostles”).

Quite a statement indeed! But you judge.

Here a sampling of life under Calvin’s “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst.” Would anyone here willfully want to be forced to live under the following rules, or to be punished for not heeding them?

Could you name the early modern society in which you would like to live?

Specifically, how do these rules compare to those advocated by Catholic Reformers such as St. Charles Borromeo?

Edwin

 

[Soldier_X]

Agreed. I think we should all praise God that we do not live in any state or society of that era.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Could you name the early modern society in which you would like to live?
Edwin

No, because I’m too enamored of technology to want to go back to a former time. However, I suppose if I had to go back it would be anywhere but a police state!

Soldier X said:

Agreed. I think we should all praise God that we do not live in any state or society of that era.

On the other hand, when one thinks of all the terrible wars and atrocities of the 20 century, maybe certain former periods might not have been so bad after all ( as long as one keeps well away from those “universal persecutors” known as Protestants that is!).

But now, according to James Joseph Walsh, the thirteenth century was the greatest of centuries!

Contarini said:

Specifically, how do these rules compare to those advocated by Catholic Reformers such as St. Charles Borromeo?

I don’t know which rules you are referring to. Could you be more specific?

 

[Contarini]

No, because I’m too enamored of technology to want to go back to a former time. However, I suppose if I had to go back it would be anywhere but a police state!

I don’t think “police state” is the best term. More like a very conservative small town.

But now, according to James Joseph Walsh, the thirteenth century was the greatest of centuries!

It all depends on your criteria. There are certainly many things to love about the thirteenth century.

I don’t know which rules you are referring to. Could you be more specific?

I’m challenging *you *to be specific and give some comparison between Geneva and other sixteenth-century societies, particularly Catholic societies also consumed by the zeal for moral reform. Borromeo’s Milan seems like a good parallel. I know that Borromeo was concerned about many of the same things Calvin was, like dancing and other “frivolous amusements.” And I know that like Calvin, he wanted the Church to be involved in enforcing a moral code.

It may be that the code at Milan was much less draconian than at Geneva. I’d just like to see some sort of comparison. Otherwise you aren’t saying anything distinctive about Protestantism, are you?

“Reform” in the sixteenth century usually meant a very authoritarian approach with plenty of coercion involved.

Edwin

 

[benidict]

I don’t think “police state” is the best term. More like a very conservative small town.

It all depends on your criteria. There are certainly many things to love about the thirteenth century.

I’m challenging *you *to be specific and give some comparison between Geneva and other sixteenth-century societies, particularly Catholic societies also consumed by the zeal for moral reform. Borromeo’s Milan seems like a good parallel. I know that Borromeo was concerned about many of the same things Calvin was, like dancing and other “frivolous amusements.” And I know that like Calvin, he wanted the Church to be involved in enforcing a moral code.

It may be that the code at Milan was much less draconian than at Geneva. I’d just like to see some sort of comparison. Otherwise you aren’t saying anything distinctive about Protestantism, are you?

“Reform” in the sixteenth century usually meant a very authoritarian approach with plenty of coercion involved.

Edwin

you raise an excellent point contarini. was not the advent of the romance novel considered a sign of the end in this era? i dimmly remember hearing about Catholic priest condemning this type of reading material. i could be a few centuries off tho. im just glad we did not have to live in one of these societies. dont care much for technology too awful much. but people really did not know how to leave other people alone back then.lol! Peace

 

[raumzeitmc2]

I don’t think “police state” is the best term. More like a very conservative small town.

Well, perhaps you can point to a small town in Catholic countries in any century where people were “burned for singing indecent songs” or, being made to “kneel down in the public square, holding an inverted torch” for making fun of the buffoonish and incompetent preacher! But you might want to see my post here.

Also, Contrast Calvin’s pride and violence with the humility and gentle sanctity of two Counter-reformation saints, St. Philip Neri and St. Charles Borromeo. See my post here.

And here’s more on Calvin, the Psychopath.

 

[benidict]

Well, perhaps you can point to a small town in Catholic countries in any century where people were “burned for singing indecent songs” or, being made to “kneel down in the public square, holding an inverted torch” for making fun of the buffoonish and incompetent preacher! But you might want to see my post here.

Also, Contrast Calvin’s pride and violence with the humility and gentle sanctity of two Counter-reformation saints, St. Philip Neri and St. Charles Borromeo. See my post here.

And here’s more on Calvin, the Psychopath.

im beginning to think hangings, and burnings were a form of entertainment back in ye olde country. they didnt have football, or you tube back then.

 

[Contarini]

Well, perhaps you can point to a small town in Catholic countries in any century where people were “burned for singing indecent songs”

I seriously doubt that this happened. And yes, I know that Ranke is the source. Doesn’t mean it happened. Even Ranke can make mistakes. I’m sure if he said something nasty about Catholics you’d be quick to point this out

or, being made to “kneel down in the public square, holding an inverted torch” for making fun of the buffoonish and incompetent preacher!

Judging from the texts of Calvin’s sermons, he was anything but buffoonish and incompetent. You can hate him all you want, but he was one of the great rhetoricians of the sixteenth century, which was a period that valued rhetoric as few have before or since.

Not that that really has anything to do with it.

I would be extremely surprised if people in Counter-Reformation Catholicism could publicly jeer at priests and get away without at least this level of punishment. But I could be wrong.

I’ll grant you that the Catholics never seem to have implemented the death penalty for adultery, though one of the sources you link to says that the Pope seriously considered it.

Edwin

 

[raumzeitmc2]

I seriously doubt that this happened

Why?

Judging from the texts of Calvin’s sermons, he was anything but buffoonish and incompetent. You can hate him all you want, but he was one of the great rhetoricians of the sixteenth century, which was a period that valued rhetoric as few have before or since.

Simply pointing out what an abusive and unchristian despot he was doesn’t mean I hate the man! As for his being a great rhetorician, I am reminded of the words of Cardinal Newman:

The Services of religion, day by day, obedience to God in our calling and in ordinary matters, endeavours to imitate our Saviour Christ in word and deed constant prayer to Him, and dependence on Him, these are the due preparation for receiving and profiting by His revelations; whereas many a man can write and talk beautifully about them, who is not at all better or nearer heaven for all his excellent words.

Parochial and plain sermons, Volume 2, p. 367.

Now listen to the words of Calvin. You tell me who is the one who hates:

Here, Calvin, “sounding a bit like the Luther of the Table Talk,” compares idolaters to latrine cleaners:

“Just as a ‘maistre Fifi’ mocks those who hold their noses [in his presence], because he has handled filth for so long that he can no longer smell his own foulness; so likewise do idolaters make light of those who are offended by a stench they cannot themselves recognize. Hardened by habit, they sit in their own excrement, and yet believe they are surrounded by roses.”

War Against the Idols: The Reformation of Worship from Erasmus to Calvin, Carlos M. N. Eire, p. 220.

Elsewhere he says:

I declare that I am not at war with the ancient fathers – only Pighius with and those like him, whether dogs or pigs, who some of the time befoul the sacred saving truth of God with their vile, filthy snouts, and at other times trample it underfoot or tear it with poisonous teeth or pursue it with their barking.

John Calvin: Student of the Church Fathers, Anthony N. S. Lane p. 180.

From his Commentary on Jeremiah 5:31:

The same thing is to be seen at this day under the Papacy: the monks flatter the people and prop up the whole system of Popery; and hence these unprincipled men call themselves the chariots of the Pope … We see how he has honored and daily honors these mendicants with privileges, and why? Because they prop up his tyranny.

Such was at that time the state of the people; the priests took their prey, and the false prophets snatched also a part of it, like these hungry dogs at this day; who yet do not act so oppressively as the Pope: they lick as it were his seat, like dogs; while he and his mitered bishops devour the fattest spoils. The meaning then, that they received into their hands, is not unsuitable.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Continued from above:

In his Last Admonition of John Calvin (Last Warning of John Calvin), 1557, Calvin says:

But who is not horrified at the monstrous blindness of Westphal, who seeks a color for his doctrine from suffrages which might rather cover the sun with darkness? Since he has chosen this vile pig-stye for his school, let him regale himself on the husks which are fit for him: only let the reader remember the proof he gives of his shameful poverty when he is forced to bring his judges from the lowest dregs of the Papacy.

Tracts Relating to the Reformation, Volume 2 p. 361.

And finally,

An almost obsessive pollution imagery, inconsistent with much else in his understanding of the human condition, pervaded Calvin’s discourse. “We take nothing from the womb but pure filth meras sordes],” he charged. “The seething spring of sin is so deep and abundant that vices are always bubbling up form it to bespatter and stain what is otherwise pure. … We should remember that we are not guilty of one offense only but are buried in innumerable impurities. … all human works, if judged according to their own worth, are nothing but filth and defilement. … they are always spattered and befouled with many stains. … it is certain that there is no one who is not covered with infinite filth.” 42 Evil-doers, as “filth and ordure,” ought to be for us “like a stench, too strong to bear,” making “the whole world stink.” 43 Among his particular enemies Eck was a purveyor of “rotten filth,” the doctrine of Rome were “stinking excrement,” the Nicodemites had “polluted themselves with all the filthy things of the papacy.” 44 Calvin may have been more fastidious that Luther (or for that matter Thomas More), but he did not altogether avoid their scatological imagery. 45.

John Calvin: A Sixteenth-Century Portrait, 1988, William J. Bouwsma, pp. 36-37pp. 36-37.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Yet another example, in addition to the ones given above, of Calvin’s inhumanity:

“Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man’s authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory.”

From the Wikipedia article on Michael Servetus

Sure there had to be something very wrong, very disordered indeed, in a man who could say and do the things Calvin said and did.

 

[RevDrNorth]

In a letter to a Mrs. Anna Locke, December 9, 1556, John Knox referred to Calvin’s Geneva as the “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst that ever was in the erth since the dayis of the Apostillis” (“the most perfect school of Christ that ever was on earth since the days of the Apostles”).

Quite a statement indeed! But you judge.

Here a sampling of life under Calvin’s “maist perfyt schoole of Chryst.” Would anyone here willfully want to be forced to live under the following rules, or to be punished for not heeding them?

Seems Calvin took after, not the meek and humble Christ, but rather, the oppressive and self-righteous Pharisees whom Christ condemned!

“They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”**
Matthew 23:4

And surely Catholic historian William Thomas Walsh was right in saying:

“Calvinism quickly became an international movement, with a world capital at Geneva and with Calvin as a Pope ruling over a city with a regimentation uncomfortably suggestive of some totalitarian state of the future.” (Philip II, p. 249).

And??? He was a human being. There have been many books written about the many wonderful things he did in governing Geneva in terms of education, health regulations, etc and for many his theology is nothing more or less than biblical exposition of scripture. There are also critiques. I am not sure this is any more useful than dredging up bizarre and sinful behavior of popes, bad behavior (sinful behavior) of the church and so on. Additionally, it is helpful to look at the time and not look at it with 21st century eyes. All characters of history are flawed except one!

 

[benidict]

And??? He was a human being. There have been many books written about the many wonderful things he did in governing Geneva in terms of education, health regulations, etc and for many his theology is nothing more or less than biblical exposition of scripture. There are also critiques. I am not sure this is any more useful than dredging up bizarre and sinful behavior of popes, bad behavior (sinful behavior) of the church and so on. Additionally, it is helpful to look at the time and not look at it with 21st century eyes. All characters of history are flawed except one!

good day reverend. maybe you can answer my question then. i asked it earlier also. by whos authority did Calvin make all these rules and regulations? its interesting that many protestants(not all) want to go by the bible only, but many of his rules and regulations are not even in the bible. also who was he subject too? was he accountable to anyone? i grew up under calvinist values. lots of silly rules, that did nothing to bring a person closer to their creator. thank you in advance peace