Can a Catholic believe that there haven't been any ex cathedra statements?

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cmodrmac said:
when the Pope (Pope Leo I believe) stated Anglicans orders were null and void-was the Pope speaking in the infallible tense-?

::cool:
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Leo XIII.

Technically, no, the Letter was not infallible, by virtue of being an *ex cathedra *pronouncement. But it is to be held definitively by RCs, as stated in the Letter itself, and as reinforced, in passing, in para 11 of then Cardinal Ratzinger’s Doctrinal Commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem:

“With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the apostolic letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations…”

GKC
 
Joe_5859 said:
Which isn’t to say that we only believe the Pope has ever been infallible on two occasions. The Christian faith would be pretty lackluster if those were the only two teachings we were sure about. 🙂
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Is the Christian faith built upon the infallible pronouncements of the Pope?
 
Novocastrian said:
Is the Christian faith built upon the infallible pronouncements of the Pope?
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The infallibility is part of, but not the totality of, the Magesterium of the Church.

The faith is built upon three foundations - Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Magesterium.
 
Celtic_Maiden said:
Unless you become a Catholic you wont know what we mean, but saying that you could look up the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and indeed this Forum to know what us Catholics are talking about what we are addressing.

Catholicism is pre denominational
We are the Originals.
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:rolleyes:
That’s quite the response to a popcorn-eating smiley. I’m not sure I understand the relevance to this thread?
 
If the Church cannot err in regards to faith and morals, then aren’t all proclamations by the Pope regarding faith and morals infallible?
 
EIF5A said:
If the Church cannot err in regards to faith and morals, then aren’t all proclamations by the Pope regarding faith and morals infallible?
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Yes, if they are to be definitively held by all the faithful. Blessed John Paul, II’s declaration concerning the ordination of women is a good example: “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

That is as infallible a statement as the Marian dogmas proclaimed from the Chair of Peter.
 
I know several Lutherans that are so mentally deficient that they can’t take care of themselves and they really can’t seem to wrap their minds around the Holy Trinity. So even though the Athanasian creed would tell me that they’re not a part of the church, I know they are beloved children of God and count them as exemplary Lutherans.

So, I would imagine you could have Catholics who just don’t agree with something (especially the modern doctrine of infallibility) and yet are quiet about their disagreement and could be considered good Catholics.
 
benjohnson said:
I know several Lutherans that are so mentally deficient that they can’t take care of themselves and they really can’t seem to wrap their minds around the Holy Trinity. So even though the Athanasian creed would tell me that they’re not a part of the church, I know they are beloved children of God and count them as exemplary Lutherans.

So, I would imagine you could have Catholics who just don’t agree with something (especially the modern doctrine of infallibility) and yet are quiet about their disagreement and could be considered good Catholics.
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Mental deficiency is one issue. If one is not mentally capable of understanding something then they cannot be held accountable. Now if one is mentally capable and decides on their own that a teaching of the Church is not their cup of tea then they would not be considered “good Catholics” and, depending on the issue at hand (abortion, contraception, gay marriage, women priests, etc…), maybe not Catholics at all, if they persist in those beliefs.
 
EIF5A said:
If the Church cannot err in regards to faith and morals, then aren’t all proclamations by the Pope regarding faith and morals infallible?
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No, because the “Church” consists of more than just the Pope.
 
SteveVH said:
Now if one is mentally capable and decides on their own that a teaching of the Church is not their cup of tea then they would not be considered “good Catholics” and, depending on the issue at hand (abortion, contraception, gay marriage, women priests, etc…), maybe not Catholics at all, if they persist in those beliefs.
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On one hand, I really agree with you - I’d like nothing better than the ability to whack soft-headed Lutherans over the head till they saw sense. But at the same time, I have to wonder that If I grew up in their shoes, I’d probably be 100 times worse.

I was fortunate enough to grow up agnostic and experience the suffering that drove me to the Cross - but those that grow up with soft-headed Lutheran parents in a squishy Lutheran church didn’t get to be as lucky as me.

They’ll get an earful if they spout their craziness near me, but at the same time I have to acknowledge that they’re also children of God - that my sins are different in nature and perhaps not so easy to spot.
 
benjohnson said:
On one hand, I really agree with you - I’d like nothing better than the ability to whack soft-headed Lutherans over the head till they saw sense. But at the same time, I have to wonder that If I grew up in their shoes, I’d probably be 100 times worse.

I was fortunate enough to grow up agnostic and experience the suffering that drove me to the Cross - but those that grow up with soft-headed Lutheran parents in a squishy Lutheran church didn’t get to be as lucky as me.

They’ll get an earful if they spout their craziness near me, but at the same time I have to acknowledge that they’re also children of God - that my sins are different in nature and perhaps not so easy to spot.
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Hey, join the club. The knowledge of our faith among the majority in the pews is abysmal. But knowledge of the faith does not mean that one is less in need of God’s mercy. 👍
 
Corki said:
Well, they would still be Catholic.

However, it would be gravely sinful to reject the ex cathedra statements of the Church.

It would be delusinal to believe ther have not been any (since at least 2 are specifically defined as such). That would be like saying you do not believe there has ever been a declaration of independence. 🙂
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How can you reject a teaching you don’t know exists? :confused:
 
benjohnson said:
So, I would imagine you could have Catholics who just don’t agree with something (especially the modern doctrine of infallibility) …
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Understood, but that isn’t what I was referring. I don’t mean Catholics who disagree with the doctrine of infallibility. I mean the question of whether a particular statement was ex cathedra.

To make it more concrete: Can someone be Catholic without believing that Auctorem fidei (Pope Pius VI, 1794, see the list given here) was ex cathedra?
 
Peter_J said:
Understood, but that isn’t what I was referring. I don’t mean Catholics who disagree with the doctrine of infallibility. I mean the question of whether a particular statement was ex cathedra.

To make it more concrete: Can someone be Catholic without believing that Auctorem fidei (Pope Pius VI, 1794, see the list given here) was ex cathedra?
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From the Wiki you quoted (the next paragraph after the short list):
**The Holy See has given no complete list of papal statements considered to be infallible. **A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on L’Osservatore Romano in July 1998[71] listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list.
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One of the documents mentioned is Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on reserving priestly ordination to men alone,[72] which the Congregation earlier stated to be infallible, although not taught ex cathedra (i.e., although not a teaching of the extraordinary magisterium), clarifying that the content of this letter has been taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium.[73] This was confirmed in a commentary by the same Congregation[71] and in commentaries by Cardinals Joseph Ratzinger[74] and Tarcisio Bertone.[75]
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As well as popes, ecumenical councils have made pronouncements that the Church considers infallible.
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Hope this helps! 🙂

In the meantime, I’ll go back to reading the ECFs. 😃
 
Peter_J said:
To make it more concrete: Can someone be Catholic without believing that Auctorem fidei (Pope Pius VI, 1794, see the list given here) was ex cathedra?
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From a Lutheran perspective - If a Catholic has doubts about what and what is ex cathedra, then certainly one can still be a good Catholic. We would tell you that the Gospel is proclaimed and the sacraments are administered in the Catholic church and to rest easy. This faith of ours calls us to bind ourselves to some very hard to understand teachings. That we could find belief hard for some of God’s teachings is to be expected!

That said… if a Catholic keeps doubting Papal Bulls, then we have a word for such folk: Lutheran 🙂
 
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