Stephen168
New member
You guys? I only see ONE Catholic on this thread that seems to disagree with the Catechism
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notself
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Military prisons have no trouble containing Special Forces trained prisoners even though the military guards do not have Special Forces training. There are Special Forces trained prisoners in civilian facilities as well. They are kept in shackles while out of their cells. The individual has to back up to the cell door. Shackles are put on his legs. He turns around and his hands are shackled with a chain joining the hands cuffs to the leg irons. It’s a pretty basic security precaution.
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wanner47
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Of course. So can people named Kristin, or Kristen, or Christine. The spelling of one’s name doesn’t matter.
Stephen168
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CesarAugusto
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Abortion is an intrinsic evil. It is always and everywhere wrong. There can be no discussion on the matter since no circumstances warrant its use.
Death penalty is not intrinsic evil. As an individual has the right (or sometimes the duty) to use deadly force to protect, say, his family, the same principle applies to countries and governments. The argument comes down to whether it is a proportionate and appropriate method for justice and should be looked at on an individual basis. As a result, it is a judgement call and therefore Christians could be on both sides of the issue while in good conscience.
One could argue that in this day and age it may not be a necessary way of dealing with criminals as there are other ways to protect society from them (ie life in prison). But again, I emphasize “one could argue.” When it comes to abortion, one cannot argue.
That’s the main difference.
Death penalty is not intrinsic evil. As an individual has the right (or sometimes the duty) to use deadly force to protect, say, his family, the same principle applies to countries and governments. The argument comes down to whether it is a proportionate and appropriate method for justice and should be looked at on an individual basis. As a result, it is a judgement call and therefore Christians could be on both sides of the issue while in good conscience.
One could argue that in this day and age it may not be a necessary way of dealing with criminals as there are other ways to protect society from them (ie life in prison). But again, I emphasize “one could argue.” When it comes to abortion, one cannot argue.
That’s the main difference.
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notself
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You just proved my point. We are 24 on the list for the highest murder rates yet there are 195 countries in the world. There are 93 countries without capital punishment. By your argument, if capital punishment detered murder, then the USA should be at the 24th on the list with the lowest murder rates.
I love the USA and am very grateful to be an American. I will continue to work to see that this country lives up to its highest ideals. I work to end capital punishment, torture, false imprisonment, and the causes of abortion. I hope to see the day when people can disagree without being considered unAmerican.
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MarkBrown
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The episode of the woman caught in adultry is not against capital punishment. She was caught in adultry. According to the law, specifically Lev 20, the man also is put to death. Where was the man? This was not about capital punishment, but about the pharisee trying to trap Jesus with the Law. I have heard theologians say that the man was probably with the group and that is why Jesus made his famous statement.
Eye for an Eye is about revenge, not justice. The NT puts the death penalty squarely in the hands of the government. Paul reminds us of that in Romans 13.
Capital punishment is about punishing a crime someone willfully committed. Abortion is about killing a person whose socalled “crime” is existing. The two are not the same.
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elvisman
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Wrong again, Notself.
I didn’t prove your point, I demolished it.
Your statement was:
**“Our murder rate is by far the highest.” **
This is nowhere near the truth. Columbia is far and away the worst. This is why I lumped you in with the America-haters who think that everything we do is “by far worse that every other nation” - without checking the facts.
**As for the death penalty being equated with abortion - HOGWASH. Whereas you can make an argument for very rare cases of the death penalty - you can never make a case for abortion. **
****As has already been pointed out to you, the Church does **allow for the death penalty is rare cases.
****People like you misinterpret the Scriptures and the catechism when it comes to matters of life, death and justice. **
Another untrue statement you made:
". . .killing an individual by another individual is contrary to God’s teaching."
**Ever read the Old Testament? God commanded the killing of others on many occasions. This is where we get our teachings on just war. Murder and killing are NOT always the same thing, my confused friend. Ecclesiastes 3:3 says **that there is a both a time to kill and a time to heal.
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cyberjacques
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Chesterton, I find myself agreeing with you a lot, so let me add to what you’ve written. Once someone has demonstrated themselves capable of premeditated murder, they are no longer safe for anyone else to be around. There is a distinct possibility that they will kill again if they find it to be in their interest to do so. Murderers often kill again in prison, whether it’s a guard or another prisoner. It’s my personal belief that failing to execute people convicted of premeditated murder actually cheapens the perceived value of life for the rest of the population. Innocent life should be considered so precious that if someone murders another, their own life should be forfeit.
And for those that have tried to point to that catechism entry as proof that the Church condemns capital punishment, please read it again. It specifically says that the Church DOES NOT forbid it, but does encourage restrictions on it to include only the most dangerous and desperate circumstances. Sounds fine to me.
The first part of your argument is flawed, and the second part is simply incorrect. Yes, some people will always seek out an abortion regardless of legal restrictions. Just as some people will commit murder regardless of legal restrictions. But using this as an excuse to maintain the legality of abortion is as foolish as saying that murder should be legalized but discouraged since people are going to commit murder anyway. The pro-abortion crowd relies on this mindset to remain unchallenged. “Abortion is wrong, but it’s going to happen whether I want it to or not, so I won’t challenge it.” The second part of your argument, stating that legal prohibition on abortion does nothing to prevent it is false. Are you aware that over the past four years the number of pregnancies terminated by elective abortion was one out of every four? One quarter of the unborn babies in the USA over the past four years were murdered. Are you trying to tell me that those same percentages were seen prior to the legalization of abortion in this country? Or that similar percentages can be seen in countries where it’s still illegal? Because you’d be wrong. Of course, the problem is two-fold. The legalization of abortion is only half the problem. The cheapening of unborn life in our modern culture is the other half. But, legalizing the murder of that unborn life is the major factor in cheapening its value in the eyes of society. And pardon my brief bit of uncharitableness, but if a woman dies attempting to get a back-alley abortion, I’d be hard-pressed to shed a tear for her. I’d feel much more sadness for her baby than for her. So, for a larger net value of lives saved, which is better? A few hundred women a year who would die from a botched abortion, or the hundreds of thousands of innocent unborn children who are killed every year?
I find it interesting that the argument that the pro-abortion crowd uses these days, claiming that a baby isn’t really a person until it’s born, or even the more extreme version that a baby isn’t a person until the parents and doctor decide that it should live, is a very new argument. Once more and more people started rebelling against the killing of innocent human beings, the pro-abortion crowd had no other choice than to dehumanize those babies. They call them “just a clump of cells”, or even a parasite. They are desperate to convince us that an unborn child has no intrinsic value, that the only value it has is whatever the mother gives it. Everyone knows that it’s wrong to kill an innocent person, so they have to argue that it’s not a person.
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notself
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You are mixing some of the things I said with things other people said.
You said
I said
The issue I raised was that capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime. If it were we would have among the lowest murder rates rather than being among the highest.
It would help if you provided a link to your list.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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it does detere the one executed.
Stephen168
New member
Is that in the Catechism?
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ralphinal
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Nah, it just minimizes repete offenders.
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elvisman
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For the 3rd time, Notself - WRONG.
Go back and read your posts I rebutted - namely #15.
I’m not going to play games with you. You said what you said and I rebutted your faulty - if not totally untrue statements.
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notself
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Please provide a link to the list. Perhaps by reading it, I will understand what you are so colorfully saying.
Here is a quote from my source and a link.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Capital punishment saves innocent lives.
Why should your burn out cousin who stole a motorcycle be killed by a murderer in prison?
Some people have forfeited the right to live among others. We have an obligation to protect the innocent.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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actually it stops repeat offenders completely.Nah, it just minimizes repete offenders.
the punishment for a crime is not suppose to be a deterrent the law against it is suppose to be the deterrent.
As I stated earlier one can find support in scripture to be both pro and anti death penalty. In my most humble opinion not every case of murder should with conviction end in the death penalty, but there are some that should.
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grampben
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On a documentary made by Scottish MSP Margo MacDonald on assisted suicide (she has parkinsons and wants to introduce acts to liberalise the law on this issue). She explained that when the disease got to its worse stage, she would want to kill herself.
A scottish cardinal, and a friend of hers, was discouraging her, and what he said was very interesting, he said that we aboloished death penalty 50 years ago because we valued even the lives of criminals. How bad is it that now we don’t even value our own? Life is God’s to give and take away.
Sorry for side tracking, but it was an interesting documentary.
A scottish cardinal, and a friend of hers, was discouraging her, and what he said was very interesting, he said that we aboloished death penalty 50 years ago because we valued even the lives of criminals. How bad is it that now we don’t even value our own? Life is God’s to give and take away.
Sorry for side tracking, but it was an interesting documentary.
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notself
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What if your burned out cousin is murdered by a drug dealer? What if your burned out cousin is murdered by a violent sex offender?
What if your burned out cousin is murdered by a guard?
It is still a security issue. Prisoners have the right to be safe in prison from other prisoners and from abusive guards.
Here are some snips.
usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-inmate-deaths_x.htm
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CHESTERTONRULES
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