Can a couple in good conscience use ABC if their pastor does not object?

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Brother_John said:
I realize and understand the Church teaching.

But to me, if you’re trying to have sex using any manner that reduces the likelihood of pregnancy…it’s kinda like saying “gosh dang it”, when everyone knows what you really mean.
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But, the Church teaches one may avoid pregnancy for serious reasons. The issue with contraception is the “means” to obtain that end.
 
Brother_John said:
You might check this one out again.
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There is nothing to check - she is completely accurate in her statement. You are getting hung up on words. One may morally space their children, or avoid pregnancy all together if it is necessary. This IS birth control - it is the MEANS one uses to control births that is at issue here. Artificial birth control is not allowed. But controlling/limiting family size by means of NFP or total abstinence is allowed.

~Liza
 
Brother_John said:
You might check this one out again.
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No, I am quite sure that the Church does not teach birth control is intrinsically wrong. The Church, in fact, teaches there can be just reasons for regulating births for a time or indefinitely.

As I said, the Church teaches that contraception is an immoral **MEANS **of birth control.
 
1ke said:
No, I am quite sure that the Church does not teach birth control is intrinsically wrong. The Church, in fact, teaches there can be just reasons for regulating births for a time or indefinitely.

As I said, the Church teaches that contraception is an immoral **MEANS **of birth control.
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But, the Church DOES say that you can’t even “overuse” NFP, unless you have “good” reason 😉 And, the word “good” is highly subjective.
 
Brother_John said:
But, the Church DOES say that you can’t even “overuse” NFP, unless you have “good” reason 😉 And, the word “good” is highly subjective.
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The standard is just reason in conformance with objective moral criteria (HV and Catechism).

That in no way contradicts what I stated. In fact, it is proof of it.
 
1ke said:
The standard is just reason in conformance with objective moral criteria (HV and Catechism).

That in no way contradicts what I stated. In fact, it is proof of it.
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Oh, I’m not ARGUING my position VERSUS the Church. I’m just saying that the position of the Church can be confusing, at least in my mind.

But, it wouldn’t be the first time that Church doctorine/dogma/discipline/practice didn’t make sense to me.

But it is what it is, and we live with it and move forward. 🤷

And, by the way…“just reason” is subjective too…😃
 
setter said:
The director of the marriage preparation program where I work with engaged couples was adamant yesterday that we instruct couples that they and their pastor have the final say in forming their conscience about using ABC or not. She prefaced her comments by stating that most engaged couples are likely already sexual active and using ABC, that she knows that most Catholic married couples, including her numerous siblings, all use ABC in their marriages. She made the repeated assertion that the Church teaching against ABC “That is the ideal, but …”.

Is it true that after an individual or couple consult a clergy and receive tacit “pastoral counsel” to use ABC in their personal situation that this completes what a couple is responsible to do in forming their conscience? That it is not a sin to use ABC?
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I don’t have to read another post in this thread. What nonsense! It is a grave sin to use ABC, PERIOD!

Before someone can use their conscious as a guide, they need to have a properly formed conscious. Whoever is spilling this evil should be reported to your bishop immediately.
 
I agree that reporting needs to be done. Abortion is murder, no matter how you explain it. When you work there, you -may- be basically saying “I support their answers” when you know their answers are wrong.

I feel its not obvious enough, but it is. Abortion is murder. Murder is against the 10 Commandments. Repeat until it clicks. Seriously, what could be baffling?

NFP does not hurt nor kill life, nor does it hurt women. That is the big difference between it and other abortion methods.
 
seremina said:
NFP does not hurt nor kill life, nor does it hurt women. That is the big difference between it and other abortion methods.
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Plus NFP is open to life. It sort of leaves it in the hands of God, instead of us humans playing God.
 
setter said:
The director of the marriage preparation program where I work with engaged couples was adamant yesterday that we instruct couples that they and their pastor have the final say in forming their conscience about using ABC or not. She prefaced her comments by stating that most engaged couples are likely already sexual active and using ABC, that she knows that most Catholic married couples, including her numerous siblings, all use ABC in their marriages. She made the repeated assertion that the Church teaching against ABC “That is the ideal, but …”.

Is it true that after an individual or couple consult a clergy and receive tacit “pastoral counsel” to use ABC in their personal situation that this completes what a couple is responsible to do in forming their conscience? That it is not a sin to use ABC?
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If ABC isn’t wrong, why be Catholic?
 
seremina said:
NFP does not hurt nor kill life, nor does it hurt women. That is the big difference between it and other abortion methods.
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Wait – you’re suggesting NFP is a method of abortion? “That is the big difference between it and other abortion methods.”
 
We were told that NFP is virtually 100% effective, and that we need not worry as long as we used it properly. BaBong. Wrong! We are now expecting an extra child and have no support (eg grandparents, friends to babysit, etc).

I am aware that the law of the church is that ABC is always wrong, so perhaps when my wife is suffering Post-Natal Depression, we can just leave the baby home with a copy of HV for company while we take a much-needed break 😛 I am sure the Police will understand. I mean is the Catechism going to baby-sit our children? Or perhaps the Pontiff himself, as the Servant of Servants could help us out with some home duties?? Anyone got his number?

I agree with the OP’s teacher, that it is an ideal, and one which should definitley be taught. It is certainly a great thing to aspire to. I myself have no conscience-problem with using barrier (non-abortive) methods since we tried NFP and it failed. It seems that the pews are not full of children, not because NFP works so well, but because ABC does. Get real.
 
davidarlette said:
We were told that NFP is virtually 100% effective, and that we need not worry as long as we used it properly. BaBong. Wrong! We are now expecting an extra child and have no support (eg grandparents, friends to babysit, etc).

I am aware that the law of the church is that ABC is always wrong, so perhaps when my wife is suffering Post-Natal Depression, we can just leave the baby home with a copy of HV for company while we take a much-needed break 😛 I am sure the Police will understand. I mean is the Catechism going to baby-sit our children? Or perhaps the Pontiff himself, as the Servant of Servants could help us out with some home duties?? Anyone got his number?

I agree with the OP’s teacher, that it is an ideal, and one which should definitley be taught. It is certainly a great thing to aspire to. I myself have no conscience-problem with using barrier (non-abortive) methods since we tried NFP and it failed. It seems that the pews are not full of children, not because NFP works so well, but because ABC does. Get real.
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It is 100% effective. It is very effective at helping us to stop viewing children as “burdens” or “extras” or “accessories.”

During your current struggle may I recommend this article? catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9804fea1.asp
The author came from a contraceptive mindset and found that Church teaching brings harmony, not discord, to the marital act.

I am sorry that I am half-way round the world from you. I would sit for you if I were near.

NFP doesn’t fail. NFP is the gathering of information and then making use of that information. The chart may have been confusing, you might have misread the signs, or you might have taken that one day chance, or you might be that very rare 1% who really are the exception to all the ovulation signs and sperm longevity facts. Sex makes babies no matter how many people try to tell you it doesn’t.

Setter’s boss needs to remember that one simple fact. “Sex makes babies.” Even if your priest tells you it won’t.
 
davidarlette said:
We were told that NFP is virtually 100% effective, and that we need not worry as long as we used it properly. BaBong. Wrong! We are now expecting an extra child and have no support (eg grandparents, friends to babysit, etc).

I am aware that the law of the church is that ABC is always wrong, so perhaps when my wife is suffering Post-Natal Depression, we can just leave the baby home with a copy of HV for company while we take a much-needed break 😛 I am sure the Police will understand. I mean is the Catechism going to baby-sit our children? Or perhaps the Pontiff himself, as the Servant of Servants could help us out with some home duties?? Anyone got his number?

I agree with the OP’s teacher, that it is an ideal, and one which should definitley be taught. It is certainly a great thing to aspire to. I myself have no conscience-problem with using barrier (non-abortive) methods since we tried NFP and it failed. It seems that the pews are not full of children, not because NFP works so well, but because ABC does. Get real.
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And condoms, pill, diaphragms, even vasectomies and tubal ligations, also all have very real failure rates. Comparable, in most cases, to failure rates for NFP.

So as little consolation as this is, there’s nothing at all to say you wouldn’t have gotten pregnant just the same using artificial contraceptives. Or that you are less likely to get pregnant again if you use them in future as opposed to NFP.

You don’t want pregnancy, don’t have sex. Plenty of couples can do and have done just fine even with lengthy periods of abstinence.

And if you approach your priest, he probably WILL know how to help you - which different governmental and charitable organisations you can go to and so on.
 
davidarlette said:
We were told that NFP is virtually 100% effective, and that we need not worry as long as we used it properly. BaBong. Wrong! We are now expecting an extra child and have no support (eg grandparents, friends to babysit, etc).

I am aware that the law of the church is that ABC is always wrong, so perhaps when my wife is suffering Post-Natal Depression, we can just leave the baby home with a copy of HV for company while we take a much-needed break 😛 I am sure the Police will understand. I mean is the Catechism going to baby-sit our children? Or perhaps the Pontiff himself, as the Servant of Servants could help us out with some home duties?? Anyone got his number?

I agree with the OP’s teacher, that it is an ideal, and one which should definitley be taught. It is certainly a great thing to aspire to. I myself have no conscience-problem with using barrier (non-abortive) methods since we tried NFP and it failed. It seems that the pews are not full of children, not because NFP works so well, but because ABC does. Get real.
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Actually it is a law from God. The natural moral law. I was wondering if other moral laws are simply an ideal. I mean like murder or armed robbery.
 
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