Can a couple in good conscience use ABC if their pastor does not object?

[Harsalter]

I myself have no conscience-problem with using barrier (non-abortive) methods since we tried NFP and it failed. .

Then your conscious is not properly formed. If you are Catholic, then it is you that should “get real”. Your baby is the will of God and you should be praising His glory.

I hope your baby never reads what you wrote on this forum and never feels as unwanted as the tone in your post has conveyed to us it is.

 

[wanner47]

Setter – another excellent resource is Janet Smith’s talk titled, “Contraception: Why Not?” I believe it’s also available in audio format.

 

[labgirl]

I, too, was lead astray on this one. When I married (and incidentally, we were not having relations), I was under the impression that the Church “frowned” on ABC, but that it was not a sin. Later, my husband sponsored in RCIA and my faith was “stirred up”. I developed a strong desire to learn more and was very upset that some things that were spoken about, I had not heard of (I attended Catholic grade school and high school). Anyway, the issue of ABC came up and I was horrified that we were committing mortal sin according to Scott Hahn. I tried to get answers from several priests and I was told during Confession that, “it wasn’t so bad”! After much inner conflict and soul searching, I’ve come to realize that, yes, it is! I am finding that the those in the Church are so afraid of alienating it’s members that they won’t come out and be straight and to the point! I am hopeful as we have a new associate pastor who is young (thirty-ish) and is practicing “tough love” and telling us that it’s hard to be Catholic, but oh so worth it!

 

[brunell]

Notice that the pews hold 2 or 3 child families. Menopause babies
are extremely scarce, not like 30-40 years ago. A priest in confession told me to use the Pill: you have the right to be normal.
A very long, erratic cycle gave us five kids under seven. I constantly bless that priest.
I know of a RC couple who resorted to sterilization after 8 children, all breast-fed, and the mom was falling apart. Also the deacon, whose brother was a priest (but they didn’t tell him!) because a fifth pregnancy would likely to kill her due to extreme
phlebitis (she already wore a filter). Then who cares for the kids?
The Magisterium has not been accepted & Vatican should admit it made a mistake. It wasn’t an infallible edict by Paul VI. The oceans are being depleted of fish; natural habitats for animal are being destroyed (God made them too). The Earth does not need more people. Shall we also ruin the planet? I think an anonymous poll in the pews would demonstrate that most,if not all, couples use or have used contraception. God also gave us reason.

 

[mark_a]

Catholicism isn’t based on Humanae Vitae.

Right, its vice versa.

Its not the Church’s job to tell us how to sin or to water down difficult teachings. 40 years ago it would have been very easy for the Church to cave on this one.

Below are some links that provide the historical teaching of the Church and the original reformers.

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f

catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=0&event=4415&date=2006-12-29

 

[wanner47]

Notice that the pews hold 2 or 3 child families.

No they don’t. All church pews I’ve seen are designed to hold many more people that that.

Menopause babies are extremely scarce, not like 30-40 years ago.

What does that have to do with anything?

A priest in confession told me to use the Pill: you have the right to be normal.

How is tricking your body into thinking that it’s in a perpetual state of pregnancy “normal”? How is introducing artificial hormones into your body that can potentially cause blood clots and cancer “normal”?

A very long, erratic cycle gave us five kids under seven. I constantly bless that priest.

Well, he needs lots of prayers because he’s leading people into sin. I have very long, erratic cycles as well but NFP works great for my husband and I for both achieving and postponing pregnancy. Perhaps you weren’t following the rules of NFP correctly, or perhaps you needed further instruction on interpreting your fertility signs.

I know of a RC couple who resorted to sterilization after 8 children, all breast-fed, and the mom was falling apart. Also the deacon, whose brother was a priest (but they didn’t tell him!) because a fifth pregnancy would likely to kill her due to extreme
phlebitis (she already wore a filter). Then who cares for the kids?

Sounds like a little self-control would have been in order for that family, as well as further instruction and catechesis regarding NFP. It doesn’t sound like they were following the rules of NFP very well at all.

The Magisterium has not been accepted & Vatican should admit it made a mistake.

The Pope and Magisterium speak on behalf of God, and God doesn’t make mistakes.

It wasn’t an infallible edict by Paul VI.

Prove it.

The oceans are being depleted of fish; natural habitats for animal are being destroyed (God made them too). The Earth does not need more people. Shall we also ruin the planet? I think an anonymous poll in the pews would demonstrate that most,if not all, couples use or have used contraception. God also gave us reason.

The reason the oceans are being depleted and so forth is because many humans aren’t good stewards of the environment, not because there’s not enough to go around. It’s the yuppie couple with their 2 kids, McMansion, and two monster-truck SUVs who are doing more damage to the environment, natural habitats, etc. I can assure you that natural habitats of animals aren’t being destroyed to create more housing for large Catholic families – they’re being destroyed so more McMansions can be built for the yuppie couples with 2 kids!

God gave us reason, and our reason tells us to listen to the Church that He established.

 

[drpmjhess]

The oceans are being depleted of fish; natural habitats for animal are being destroyed (God made them too). The Earth does not need more people. Shall we also ruin the planet?

Brunell, God told humans to go forth and multiply, and offered no qualification about when we are to stop multiplying. As long as we are fulfilling that mandate, does it matter how many species go extinct? Does it matter how many children starve to death so long as we are multiplying? Doesn’t obeying the commandment to be fruitful and multiply come before all other moral considerations?

 

[theAuthor]

Yes, not commiting murder is an ideal. Unfortunately countries need to defend themselves in war which involves killing. Has always been that way, and God Himself ordered it in the Bible at times. Same with the Sabbath. I don’t know about anyone else, but I follow Jesus principally, and Jesus defended David and his men breaking the Sabbath to a good end.

Barrier methods (which are non-abortive) are not murder and in no way break Thou Shalt Not Murder. They break with HV. That is it.

I hear two sides of this argument. I hear the legalistic, “It says in HV which is infallible, so thou must…(do as I say).” Then the other side which is more comapssionate and real, like Brunell.
Brunell, you are right. Within a couple of generations all kinds of families have shrunk (including Catholic). We are on a site of dedicated Catholics, so there is going to be a lot of staunchness here (and God richly Bless those who are able to keep this edict, I mean that). In the pews and in the real world though, I know in my heart (as do a lot of priests from the sound of things), that it is not something which is adhered to.

And yes Deb, if we had sitters and family nearby, and lived in a community, and were supported, then our life would be different. But the world is less than ideal. I just do my best. If I do that, my conscience is clear.

LilyM, there is no Govt agency to help us since we are not on welfare, and no I will not be forgoing the unitive part of the mariiage act. Stay in your own bedroom, eh?

Harsalter, I will love this baby with all my might, but I will not be stupid enough to make the same mistake again. Once they’re out, you love them and you’d never throw them back. But in the future we are talking about potential babies, sperm has not met egg, noone is getting murdered in-utero. I’m going to love this baby, but I do hope she or he will be our last one out!

 

[fix]

Yes, not commiting murder is an ideal. Unfortunately countries need to defend themselves in war which involves killing. Has always been that way, and God Himself ordered it in the Bible at times. Same with the Sabbath. I don’t know about anyone else, but I follow Jesus principally, and Jesus defended David and his men breaking the Sabbath to a good end.

Self defense is not murder. Murder is always wrong and so is contraception.

Barrier methods (which are non-abortive) are not murder and in no way break Thou Shalt Not Murder. They break with HV. That is it.

Contraception, any form, breaks 6th commandment. It may also break the 5th depending on what is used.

I hear two sides of this argument. I hear the legalistic, “It says in HV which is infallible, so thou must…(do as I say).”

It is known from the natural moral law which is God’s ordaining will. It is not legalism to love God.

Then the other side which is more comapssionate and real, like Brunell.
Brunell, you are right. Within a couple of generations all kinds of families have shrunk (including Catholic). We are on a site of dedicated Catholics, so there is going to be a lot of staunchness here (and God richly Bless those who are able to keep this edict, I mean that). In the pews and in the real world though, I know in my heart (as do a lot of priests from the sound of things), that it is not something which is adhered to.

There is no compassion in denying what is true or violating God’s will.

 

[fix]

The Magisterium has not been accepted & Vatican should admit it made a mistake.

It has been accepted. You mean you and other do not accept it.

And acceptance does not make untruth become truth. Nor does dissent make truth become untrue.

It wasn’t an infallible edict by Paul VI

It was infallible long before HV was written.

 

[PaulinVA]

A priest in confession told me to use the Pill: you have the right to be normal…

If he told you to kill someone, would it not be a sin?

A very long, erratic cycle gave us five kids under seven. I constantly bless that priest.

Which of your children do you want to get rid of? Have you told them this?

brunell:

The Magisterium has not been accepted & Vatican should admit it made a mistake. It wasn’t an infallible edict by Paul VI. The oceans are being depleted of fish; natural habitats for animal are being destroyed (God made them too). The Earth does not need more people. Shall we also ruin the planet? I think an anonymous poll in the pews would demonstrate that most,if not all, couples use or have used contraception. God also gave us reason.

Many are called; few are chosen.

 

[labgirl]

barrier methods are non-abortive, however, using such methods puts constraints on love you are willing to give each other, ie. “I will give my love to you only to the extent that it will not produce a life”. That’s not complete and total love and not a reflection of the love that God has for us which is what married love is supposed to be. What if God’s love had constraints on it? God loves us totally without limits and that is how He wishes us to love each other in marriage–“better/worse, richer/poorer, sickness/health, etc.”; there’s no provision for and only if we don’t get pregnant until we want to. Reason does come into play, but prayer is to be used to be able to discern whether or not the timing is ok this month.

 

[drpmjhess]

Which of your children do you want to get rid of? Have you told them this?

That’s a silly argument, and you know it.

 

[drpmjhess]

But, I’ve always wondered, what’s the difference between using a pill or condom, vs a thermometer or a calendar? Either is a method of enjoying the marital act while trying to avoid pregnancy…besides the fact that the Church declares itself not to be inconsistient

Right – it’s a matter of the Church defining one technology as morally acceptable and another as not. The deeper issue is whether or not the contraceptive mentality is wrong, the mentality of wanting to have sex but not wanting to conceive children, and getting around prohibitions by using thermometric and calendrical technology.

 

[LilyM]

If he told you to kill someone, would it not be a sin?

IF? That priest DID tell you to kill not just someone but many someones - all those countless unborn souls who were designed by God to be born to you, whose names He knows from all eternity even if you don’t.

Any one of them might have been the next Mozart or Rembrandt, the next Albert Schweitzer, the next St Francis or Mother Teresa …

 

[LilyM]

Right – it’s a matter of the Church defining one technology as morally acceptable and another as not. The deeper issue is whether or not the contraceptive mentality is wrong, the mentality of wanting to have sex but not wanting to conceive children, and getting around prohibitions by using thermometric and calendrical technology.

There’s no ‘getting around’ here. And yes, NFP can be and is abused as well by couples if they are avoiding children for wrongful selfish reasons. Doesn’t make it the same thing as artificial methods, the mindset behind the two is usually very different.

It’s like saying that using an experimental and possibly dangerous drug to try to save someone’s life is the same as injecting them with something you absolutely know to be poisonous because they’re an inconvenience. The first is done for the sake of a much greater good, the other is out and out evil.

 

[PaulinVA]

Originally Posted by PaulinVA
Which of your children do you want to get rid of? Have you told them this?

That’s a silly argument, and you know it.

No, not silly. The poster stated that NFP had failed them, and he implied they had too many children already. I was inquiring as to which ones he didn’t want.

Not silly. Sarcastic, maybe, but not silly.

 

[fix]

Right – it’s a matter of the Church defining one technology as morally acceptable and another as not.

Not technology, but actions.

The deeper issue is whether or not the contraceptive mentality is wrong, the mentality of wanting to have sex but not wanting to conceive children, and getting around prohibitions by using thermometric and calendrical technology.

There is no prohibition from spacing children or not having any if need be.

 

[wanner47]

Not technology, but actions.

Fix is absolutely correct.

For example, some hospitals use sterile condoms on transvaginal ultrasound wands to protect women from infection. The CC has no problem with this whatsoever.

Another example – it’s licit for a woman (married or single) to use hormonal birth control for serious medical reasons if there is no other medication available that would help her condition.

It’s when condoms and ABC are used *for the specific purpose of contraception *that they become immoral.

 

[Brother_John]

Right – it’s a matter of the Church defining one technology as morally acceptable and another as not. The deeper issue is whether or not the contraceptive mentality is wrong, the mentality of wanting to have sex but not wanting to conceive children, and getting around prohibitions by using thermometric and calendrical technology.

Exactly the point I was trying to get to. If the objective is to engage in marital relations while minimizing the potential of new life, it seems bizarre to say…this way, ok…that way, not ok…either it’s ok or not?