Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[m_crane]

Wanting children is not necessary, but in marriage when the spouses are able, having children is.
I can honestly say I did not feel a want for children. But when I married I realized that part of marriage is having children. I worried about not wanting children but when they came, I grew to want them.

I think it is very normal for an unmarried, childless person to feel the way you do.
Was there a time when you didn’t ever want to be married? Well that has changed for you and this will too.

Sometimes you just have to trust that God knows what’s best for us more than we do.

 

[benedictus2]

What I said is what the Church teaches. It’s your choice how you deal with it.
Good luck!

No what you said is a twisted version of what the Church teaches. It’s your choice if you want to believe the twisted version.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

I’m not Catholic as of this writing, OP, and I’m sympathetic to your position in my gut, so don’t believe I can be accused of shilling for the Church here.

I dislike children in a way that goes down to the bone. Simply as a category of people, they strike me as dimwitted, boring, and almost supernaturally vicious. I’ve met one or two good eggs, but they’re one in a thousand–to me, the acculturation we experience as we move into adulthood is what excuses our existence, much less makes us even tolerable company. This isn’t meant to outrage the child-worshippers on this thread; I’m just establishing my lack of ulterior motives for what I’m about to say.

The Catholic Church has a pretty strict set of guidelines for young marrieds. Openness to reproduction appears to be one of the big ones. You’re not required to want them. You’re not required to like them. You may well NOT like them. Maybe they’ll turn out to be a blessing, though. Or maybe they’ll ruin your life in any way that the world, or your own perceptions, would interpret it. Doesn’t mater. If you’re going to get married, in good faith, as a Catholic, your actions have to leave the door open to childbearing.

If I ever convert, I’ll necessarily have decided that the Church has the prerogative to say what’s what in areas like this. And I’ll obey. I wouldn’t like it. My wife wouldn’t, either. And we might not like the two-legged results–heck, we might well detest them. but it starts with obedience and integrity: if you don’t have those, you don’t have jack. Roll the dice like a man, I say, and pray that you like the result. Even if the results make you miserable, pray that the Church knows what it’s doing, and that the long-term implications are more important than your happiness as the world counts it.

At any rate, if you believe the Church is what it says, you owe it the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Godspeed, sir. I’ll hoist a tall one to your fortunes, to the future Mrs. OP, and to any little OPs. Be not afraid.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not Catholic as of this writing, OP, and I’m sympathetic to your position in my gut, so don’t believe I can be accused of shilling for the Church here.

I dislike children in a way that goes down to the bone. Simply as a category of people, they strike me as dimwitted, boring, and almost supernaturally vicious. I’ve met one or two good eggs, but they’re one in a thousand–to me, the acculturation we experience as we move into adulthood is what excuses our existence, much less makes us even tolerable company. This isn’t meant to outrage the child-worshippers on this thread; I’m just establishing my lack of ulterior motives for what I’m about to say.

The Catholic Church has a pretty strict set of guidelines for young marrieds. Openness to reproduction appears to be one of the big ones. You’re not required to want them. You’re not required to like them. You may well NOT like them. Maybe they’ll turn out to be a blessing, though. Or maybe they’ll ruin your life in any way that the world, or your own perceptions, would interpret it. Doesn’t mater. If you’re going to get married, in good faith, as a Catholic, your actions have to leave the door open to childbearing.

If I ever convert, I’ll necessarily have decided that the Church has the prerogative to say what’s what in areas like this. And I’ll obey. I wouldn’t like it. My wife wouldn’t, either. And we might not like the two-legged results–heck, we might well detest them. but it starts with obedience and integrity: if you don’t have those, you don’t have jack. Roll the dice like a man, I say, and pray that you like the result. Even if the results make you miserable, pray that the Church knows what it’s doing, and that the long-term implications are more important than your happiness as the world counts it.

At any rate, if you believe the Church is what it says, you owe it the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Godspeed, sir. I’ll hoist a tall one to your fortunes, to the future Mrs. OP, and to any little OPs. Be not afraid.

Thanks for your insights and integrity and honesty, friend.

(As an aside: I’ve always felt the way you do–about animals. But I was too cowardly to say that here due to the dog-worshippers and other animal crazies. But I digress…)

I think what you have stated above is exactly what’s wrong with Protestantism. It allows Christians to design a theology that conforms to their beliefs, rather than demanding that Christians conform their theology to that which Christ has revealed.

I proffer that if you’re in a church that doesn’t make you squirm a bit in its theology, doesn’t challenge you to change your view on something you find distasteful or unnecessary, then you have created a god in your own image.

I, myself, would love it if the Church did not say that divorce and re-marriage is adultery. (Or, more correctly, if Jesus had not said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery). There are numerous friends that have re-married that I would have loved to celebrate their finding apparent happiness in their second marriages, but I cannot disobey my Lord.

To shop around and find a church that has edited God’s revelation to make it more palatable is the height of hubris, IMHO.

 

[benedictus2]

I dislike children in a way that goes down to the bone. Simply as a category of people, they strike me as dimwitted, boring, and almost supernaturally vicious.

Simply as a category of people, those who dislike children down to their bones strike me as dimwitted, boring and totally supernaturally vicious. Not only that. They also strike me as arrogant and self-involved.

Considering that they were children once, they are irrational enough to think that they are any better than the children they hate. Thinking that having seen a few more sunsets and sunrise they are somehow suddenly better people.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Simply as a category of people, those who dislike children down to their bones strike me as dimwitted, boring and totally supernaturally vicious. Not only that. They also strike me as arrogant and self-involved.

I can live with that.

Considering that they were children once, they are irrational enough to think that they are any better than the children they hate. Thinking that having seen a few more sunsets and sunrise they are somehow suddenly better people.

Sunsets and sunrises? Not really. Other sorts of experience? Of course. Usually, one spends one’s life striving to be a better person. This necessarily implies that we start out relatively low on that spectrum. Believing that we start out as good as we’re ever going to be (or better) is effectively denying the possibility of striving toward wisdom.and morality, at best. At worst, it’s a fatuous belief that we’re somehow born “trailing clouds of glory,” a stance that is less Christian than Wordsworthian.

Having said all that, I stand by the argument that followed my attempts at candor about children. I believe that a Catholic ought to obey his Church, whatever it costs him. Since having them around seems not to cost you much, you’ll forgive me if your animadversions towards the OP strike me as a trifle cheap.

 

[benedictus2]

Sunsets and sunrises? Not really. Other sorts of experience? Of course. Usually, one spends one’s life striving to be a better person.

Well helloo. How can a dimwitted and supernaturally vicious person even want to strive to be a better person?

This necessarily implies that we start out relatively low on that spectrum.

Where then does the impetus to be a better person come from considering that one is dimwitted and supernaturally vicious?

Believing that we start out as good as we’re ever going to be (or better) is effectively denying the possibility of striving toward wisdom.and morality, at best.

If we start out bad then there is nowhere to go but worse.

You claim to be Protestant so presumably Christian. If you think that God creates human beings bad then you are saying that God is the author of evil.

 

[redeemersmith]

In my opinion, there is no excuse for using contraception. The reason for the whole debate is to create an authentic love that does not get watered down to pure lust with some gucky feelings on the side. Sex in marriage is sacred and it can’t be turned into a mutual stress relief exercise between two people

Adopting a child is very honorable, especially one that’s being considered for abortion, but that does not help strengthen the lust vs. love issue between two people.

In terms of knowing that the child will have a deadly disease; it obviously gets more complicated- but if it is to be brought into this world, it is not your right to stop it. I don’t see that big of a problem if you get married to someone and both decide to become chaste like Mary and Joseph. The point is you can’t go into a marriage saying “I do not want a child” that goes against allowing God into your life. Reducing the times you have sex and avoiding the peak of your fertile cycle does not interfere with Gods plan because you can get pregnant having sex once, or over a span of even two years like some couples. We all have crosses to bear. A child that is born ill and dies shortly after is a terrible pain and lose, but if you truly believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church you know the child will be in heaven close to God where we all belong.

Bottom line, I’d say get married and adopt. Don’t use contraception, but you might be morally obliged to use NFP and chastity.

Just my opinion though, I hope someone has a better answer

this one is an old post, but yes I second in motion to his opinion.

 

[NightHawk2005]

How about 20 years after that, when THEY will be taking care of you? Not that anyone should have children for the sole purpose of being taken care of in old age.

I think we should all cut you some slack, you are still at the age when you think that x and y will NEVER change. Life has a way of teaching each and everyone of us at some point to NEVER say NEVER. I’m not much older than you but I got that lesson already so I won’t engage in your debate about the children situation but do remember my words… When you have the wrong position on something, you will always have AT LEAST ONE, occasion to reconsider and there will be a time of regret- this is not a threat

A friend of my mother’s- late 50s- never wanted children and, “fortunately” for him, neither did his wife. Even more “fortunately” they never conceived once. The guy converted about 5 years ago and since then has started to LOVE kids beyond words and would wish for othing more than to be a grandfather. His wife never converted ( from atheism) but, some stray kitty made her way into their home half a year ago and after caring for her for some time she became really attached to her, and, with time, that also developed into a love for children- young ones mostly.

Now, I only hope you won’t be 60 by the time you reconsider
God bless!

They probably wouldn’t care for me if I had them, and I know they won’t because this is not going to change. I’m never going to reconsider this. I do not want children, now or ever. My mind is firmly made up. I don’t care if I have to avoid sex completely or even avoid marriage completely, I’m doing whatever it takes to avoid children.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Indeed it is! And it needed to be said.

Exactly my point! If one takes a certains perspective, then that applies to one as well.

If children are a curse, then one must be so as well. As a matter of fact, it must be so for the girl he hopes to marry as well.

But, If he considers himself a blessing, then everyone is a blessing for we were all created by the same God who only makes good things and who only wills the good. We do not determine whether something is a blessing or not. God determines that.

I call myself a curse at least three times a week. I’ve gotten into a few fights over that one.

 

[PRmerger]

I call myself a curse at least three times a week. I’ve gotten into a few fights over that one.

What do you mean by this? You call yourself a curse? And people have gotten offended by that and hit you? What???

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Well helloo. How can a dimwitted and supernaturally vicious person even want to strive to be a better person?

Where then does the impetus to be a better person come from considering that one is dimwitted and supernaturally vicious?

If we start out bad then there is nowhere to go but worse.

Human nature, even in the worst examples, is multivalent. Every man’s heart has its “better angels,” however outnumbered. People work at being better all the time. Now, I have known a few people who don’t admit the possibility of wishing or willing to become a better person. Until now, they’ve all been Calvinists.

You claim to be Protestant so presumably Christian. If you think that God creates human beings bad then you are saying that God is the author of evil.

All right: this is the equivalent of an enormously slow, fat pitch with zero motion in the dead middle of the strike zone. And frankly, I’m just not cruel enough to swing at it for all it’s worth. My Catholic friends, if any of you are involved in catechesis at your local church, could you make sure that folks under your guidance leave at least vaguely conversant with the doctrine of Original Sin? You might save them some embarrassment.

 

[NightHawk2005]

What do you mean by this? You call yourself a curse? And people have gotten offended by that and hit you? What???

Not all fights are physical. I’ve had some people vehemently disagree, mostly women.

 

[PRmerger]

Not all fights are physical. I’ve had some people vehemently disagree, mostly women.

'kay. So you said you were a curse and some people got in a fight with you about it?

Could you please elaborate? I am not understanding.

 

[FCEGM]

Originally Posted by benedictus2
You claim to be Protestant so presumably Christian. If you think that God creates human beings bad then you are saying that God is the author of evil.

Why do you think that the above statement of benedictus2 doesn’t reflect the Church’s teaching on Original Sin?

 

[NightHawk2005]

'kay. So you said you were a curse and some people got in a fight with you about it?

Could you please elaborate? I am not understanding.

What’s to understand? I call myself a curse and some people disagree with me. The end.

 

[PRmerger]

What’s to understand? I call myself a curse and some people disagree with me. The end.

Fair enough. Not very noteworthy you’re saying.

Yet it was noteworthy enough for you to post it here.

What’s your point? You call yourself “a curse” at least 3 times a week and people have gotten into a fight with you about this. Why is this important to know in the context of this thread?

Is it to show that you are loved by lots of people? Is it to show that you have some vague (and I would say false) form of humility?

 

[sallysinglemom]

so are you saying I am outside God’s power if He did not make me this way? (p.s. they don’t suck all the time, I just am not interested in raising one. in being responsible for their wellbeing 24/7/365/18, in being the one they come to when they have issues. in being a parent.)

I’ve only read a few responses, and I’m late to reply, but if you end up reading this:

Are you sure your hesitance towards children is not being fed from our Malthusian, Anti-Natal society and media? I can only speak from my own experience, but before I had my child (unplanned pregnancy, wasn’t going to keep him, God intervened, long irrelevant story) I was the sort of person who was proud of the fact that the sound of laughing children on the playground made me twitch. I thought I was being funny, going against what I was supposed to be (i.e. enjoy children and happiness). Sort of like a “oh aren’t I a unique misfit. I’m hopeless. Look at me, how I broke the mold, aren’t I special?” mentality.

It makes me smile now.

The greatest thing that comes from parenthood is not the love that you get from your child. It’s not. Although that’s irreplaceable, the greatest thing about parenthood is the insight God grants you. YOU ARE HIS CHILD. It’s very difficult as a child to understand a parent’s love. Your perspective is scewed. But as a parent you look at your little two year old, so frustrated and angry because the wooden train tracks in his play set won’t match up and all you can do is laugh. You help him, of course, and you calm him down but you just can’t help melting at how cute he is, and and how far you’ve both come from the ugly little wrinkly pest screaming and the wide eyed “what the hell have I gotten myself into” zombie duo.

The treasure of parenthood is the window into how God sees you. As fully grown and intelligent and cultured and talented and developed as you are, you’re just a toddler, shoes untied, hair messy, face grubby, compared to everything you will be. And the huge mountainous trials you face are no more than a matter of linking wooden toy tracks together.

This perspective, (though I’m not at all doing it any justice here) as well as the discovery of who you truly are, beyond the “I’d rather BE a child than HAVE a child” mentality we’re all poisoned with today, make it all worth it. (Although as a side note, you realize your “look at me” mentality is cute to God. Kind of like when your two year old discovers he can make faces and get a reaction out of you so he keeps doing it to get attention and it’s old but the fact that he wants attention from you - and the realization that this pattern of behavior will continue and get more complex as he ages - is adorable.) There’s also an indescribable feeling when you give yourself away entirely to another human from whom you will receive nothing in return. Marriage is a good start, it touches on this selflessness briefly, but it doesn’t come close to parenthood.

Sorry if this was long, and if you never read it, (how many pages is this post up to now?) then oh well, but I thought I’d add my two cents. As someone who was once mortified by the idea of being a parent, speaking from the next chapter, it’s a lot better than it’s looks.
Give yourself time, give God yourself, never cease praying and see how he intends for things to work out.

Hope this helped,
God Bless.

.

 

[sallysinglemom]

I dislike children in a way that goes down to the bone. Simply as a category of people, they strike me as dimwitted, boring, and almost supernaturally vicious. I’ve met one or two good eggs, but they’re one in a thousand–to me, the acculturation we experience as we move into adulthood is what excuses our existence, much less makes us even tolerable company. This isn’t meant to outrage the child-worshippers on this thread…

I suppose I’m one of those pesky child-worshipers, but I’m not outraged, just saddened. It seems to me the way we view children is the way we view the greater human race, and the greater human race is getting a pretty bad rap lately. Simply my opinion there, I completely agree with the rest of your post, and kudos for coming to that conclusion about the Church’s teaching even if you have such feelings. I respect that.

Peace.

 

[samiam1611]

I’ve only read a few responses, and I’m late to reply, but if you end up reading this:

Are you sure your hesitance towards children is not being fed from our Malthusian, Anti-Natal society and media? I can only speak from my own experience, but before I had my child (unplanned pregnancy, wasn’t going to keep him, God intervened, long irrelevant story) I was the sort of person who was proud of the fact that the sound of laughing children on the playground made me twitch. I thought I was being funny, going against what I was supposed to be (i.e. enjoy children and happiness). Sort of like a “oh aren’t I a unique misfit. I’m hopeless. Look at me, how I broke the mold, aren’t I special?” mentality.

It makes me smile now.

**The greatest thing that comes from parenthood is not the love that you get from your child. It’s not. Although that’s irreplaceable, the greatest thing about parenthood is the insight God grants you. YOU ARE HIS CHILD. It’s very difficult as a child to understand a parent’s love. Your perspective is scewed. But as a parent you look at your little two year old, so frustrated and angry because the wooden train tracks in his play set won’t match up and all you can do is laugh. You help him, of course, and you calm him down but you just can’t help melting at how cute he is, and and how far you’ve both come from the ugly little wrinkly pest screaming and the wide eyed “what the hell have I gotten myself into” zombie duo. **

The treasure of parenthood is the window into how God sees you. As fully grown and intelligent and cultured and talented and developed as you are, you’re just a toddler, shoes untied, hair messy, face grubby, compared to everything you will be. And the huge mountainous trials you face are no more than a matter of linking wooden toy tracks together.

Thank you for responding, sally. I’m very happy that motherhood was worked out so well for you.

Some parts of your post reminds me of the way I feel about my dog hehe. People have scoffed at me for saying that the love of/for a dog could come close to the love of/for a child, but then I read posts like yours and I’m like dude, it’s really similar! Especially the bolded part. She just so happened to be a little, ugly, and wrinkly dog, and so cute that she made my heart melt. (Your wording just struck me as very appropriate.)

It is hard to imagine loving anyone as much as her. I have a feeling a child would just be a huge disappointment in comparison.