Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[samiam1611]

Bottom line–do you seek to obey God or to merely fulfill your own desires?

well that’s the thing! by posing this question i hope you see that i struggle with blindly following all the rules set by the church, but am not so far gone that i am ok with ignoring them. i guess you could say i’m trying to get closer to Him, such as many as you have. i choose this forum among my resources for doing this

 

[catharina]

well that’s the thing! by posing this question i hope you see that i struggle with blindly following all the rules set by the church, but am not so far gone that i am ok with ignoring them. i guess you could say i’m trying to get closer to Him, such as many as you have. i choose this forum among my resources for doing this

s 1611 -

please respond to Post # 17.

 

[samiam1611]

Still hoping that you will respond to Post # 17.

what do you want me to say haha i am confused on how some people say God made us and then some people are like you made yourself (to put it overly simply)

what you said about other religious groups vs the Catholic Church well yep I already knew that. I am trying to understand the Catholic way of things.

 

[catharina]

what do you want me to say haha i am confused on how some people say God made us and then some people are like you made yourself (to put it overly simply)

what you said about other religious groups vs the Catholic Church well yep I already knew that. I am trying to understand the Catholic way of things.

My point is that God did not make anyone to dislike children.
Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such
is the kingdom of heaven.” If you find children annoying, if you dislike them,
then that’s on YOU, not on God.

 

[samiam1611]

1. grow up - I don’t think there’s a parent on this planet that thinks 2am feedings aren’t somehow “annoying.” Billions of parents the world over look beyond that.
2. dogs are nice but they don’t replace people. Plus, many dogs like kids, too.
3. it can be equally narcissistic to seek out adoption for the wrong reasons
4. your prospective spouse would be ill-served by you continuing in your body issues. I recommend a counselor for that.
5. this is a legit excuse for a serious enough problem that isn’t treatable by other means. Many conditions can be treated by other means, such as surgery. If there is no alternative to the drug, NFP is still the only permitted means of “indefinitely delaying” pregnancy. If the condition is cosmetic, however (e.g. acne), you should seriously consider whether the effect of forcing you to exclude pregnancy is worth it.

1. you don’t know how old I am so I don’t think grow up is really even an appropriate insult. And I know everyone can’t help but be annoyed sometimes. I am different in that what some people find cute, I find annoying. What some people find rewarding, I just don’t care. What some people think is a beautiful gift from God, I think is a burden.
2. I am suggesting that for some, such as myself, dogs CAN replace people. Can in the sense that if one of the things you enjoy about children is receiving their love, than yes, my dog can do that. If you enjoy how your kid looks cute when they sleep, or eat, or play, well dogs do that too. If you like carrying around your baby in your arms, guess what, i hold my dog like a baby all the time and she loves it.
3. i don’t want to adopt bc i don’t want to be a parent. the adoption thing was purely hypothetical. i find it hard to believe anyone would go through the arduous process of adoption unless they really wanted to.
4. my bf is aware of my insecurities. he makes some effort to dispel them but the thoughts are persistent. it just so happens i do go to a counselor.
5. true…in this case, the other means have been tried (including going so far as to live at the National Institutes of Health in D.C. for several months in order to be part an experimental procedure that if it worked would allow me to stop my medication. but it didn’t work). it’s not cosmetic.
   so you said this (the medication thing) is a legit excuse. do you mean you would approve of (like pretend you’re the priest) a marriage that intended to be childless if this was the only reason? (thus you would approve of them having sex even though they were hoping and praying and crossing their fingers that it would not lead to pregnancy.)

 

[samiam1611]

My point is that God did not make anyone to dislike children.
Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such
is the kingdom of heaven.” If you find children annoying, if you dislike them,
then that’s on YOU, not on God.

so are you saying I am outside God’s power if He did not make me this way? (p.s. they don’t suck all the time, I just am not interested in raising one. in being responsible for their wellbeing 24/7/365/18, in being the one they come to when they have issues. in being a parent.)

 

[momor]

Does the Church first require a vasectomy reversal?

No. They don’t even have to make an attempt to reverse it. Same thing for a woman who had a tubal ligation.

 

[catharina]

so are you saying I am outside God’s power if He did not make me this way? (p.s. they don’t suck all the time, I just am not interested in raising one. in being responsible for their wellbeing 24/7/365/18, in being the one they come to when they have issues. in being a parent.)

I’m saying that like everyone in the world, you’ve acquired
some habits/attitudes that are not inborn, that is are not
attributes put into you by GOD. That can hardly surprise you.
It’s true for everybody. We have free will. To a certain extent,
we form ourselves. So - don’t put this on God, please!

 

[samiam1611]

My point is that God did not make anyone to dislike children.
Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such
is the kingdom of heaven.” If you find children annoying, if you dislike them,
then that’s on YOU, not on God.

also not sure what that quote has to do with this.

 

[catharina]

also not sure what that quote has to do with this.

My response is to quote you to you (again):

"Again I ask myself (and you) why would God make me not want children, make this other person not want children, and then bring us both together? I really don’t get it."

Jesus Himself urges us to welcome children.
He does not tell us to learn to disregard children.
On the contrary.

You have made yourself distant from children.
God does not make us that way.

Ou nature, our instincts, lead us to cherish children.
Our religious teachings do exactly the same.

God did NOT make you “not want children.”
I’m objecting to your idea that God is responsible for your aversion.

 

[samiam1611]

I’m saying that like everyone in the world, you’ve acquired
some habits/attitudes that are not inborn, that is are not
attributes put into you by GOD. That can hardly surprise you.
It’s true for everybody. We have free will. To a certain extent,
we form ourselves. So - don’t put this on God, please!

that is actually the way I see it. i believe in free will 100%. that’s why I don’t understand why people say God is all-powerful. If He doesn’t control my thoughts or actions, why does He try to control my future, the things that happen to me? Why does He give me the ability to think for myself, but condemn those thoughts? What if that’s not the way it is - what if the Church Fathers who wrote that stuff down wrote it down wrong?!

 

[samiam1611]

My response is to quote you to you (again):

"Again I ask myself (and you) why would God make me not want children, make this other person not want children, and then bring us both together? I really don’t get it."

Jesus Himself urges us to welcome children.
He does not tell us to learn to disregard children.
On the contrary.

You have made yourself distant from children.
God does not make us that way.

Ou nature, our instincts, lead us to cherish children.
Our religious teachings do exactly the same.

God did NOT make you “not want children.”
I’m objecting to your idea that God is responsible for your aversion.

ok i see what you’re saying now. the kingdom of heaven thing seemed out of place but i get it now.
So God did not make me the way I am - totally with you on that. Didn’t God make me though? Why would He make someone in His image but mess up that part - giving me the option to disagree with His ways?

 

[Maureen1125]

I disagree with the majority…as usual.

You may very well be called to a vocation to marriage but not a vocation to parenthood.

 

[catharina]

that is actually the way I see it. i believe in free will 100%. that’s why I don’t understand why people say God is all-powerful. If He doesn’t control my thoughts or actions, why does He try to control my future, the things that happen to me? Why does He give me the ability to think for myself, but condemn those thoughts? What if that’s not the way it is - what if the Church Fathers who wrote that stuff down wrote it down wrong?!

Faith and other virtues enable us to conform
our thoughts and choices to the will of God.

That is our duty and it complements our free will.
We pray to strengthen our faith, hope and charity.

Did Lincoln exist? George Washington?
Or did the historians get it wrong - and our
“history” is just a delusion???

 

[catharina]

ok i see what you’re saying now. the kingdom of heaven thing seemed out of place but i get it now.
So God did not make me the way I am - totally with you on that. Didn’t God make me though? Why would He make someone in His image but mess up that part - giving me the option to disagree with His ways?

Free will is God’s gift to us.
Without it, we would be slaves or automatons.

God messes up nothing!

 

[samiam1611]

I disagree with the majority…as usual.

You may very well be called to a vocation to marriage but not a vocation to parenthood.

that’s exactly right. who is doing the “calling”? haha you know?

 

[Maureen1125]

Faith and other virtues enable us to conform
our thoughts and choices to the will of God.

That is our duty and it complements our free will.
We pray to strengthen our faith, hope and charity.

**Did Lincoln exist? George Washington?
Or did the historians get it wrong - and our
“history” is just a delusion???/**QUOTE]

This last statement is totally idiotic. These are historical people that we can prove existed. Just as we can prove that Mary, Joseph and Jesus were all real people who actually lived.

What if this man turns out to be a pediphile? or a violent child abuser? If he knows that he was not meant to be a Parent, that that is not his calling in life, that DOES NOT condemn him to live as a single man. BOTH of those reasons fulfill the NFP “rule” to have a “serious reason” to abstain from having children.

 

[silentstar]

I love you, I want to be with you, I want to make your best days better and your worse days go away. I want to grow old with you, take care of you…I want to give you my whole life…all but the part that joins with God to bring a new soul into the world…all but the part that brings us together in creating a person that is part of you and part of me…sorry that part I can’t do with you…nope don’t love you that much…can’t give you my whole self.
They are saying no to God’s grace. They are not giving themselves 100% to their spouse. They are putting limits on their love for one another.

What about people with illness/disability who want to marry but can’t become parents? Not through infertility but for health reasons. And I don’t mean parenthood is difficult I mean it’s not possible. I’m in that situation and judging from some of what I’ve seen on CAF, I get the impression that ill/disabled people who want to marry need to convert to another faith to do so. Is that always true and can anyone cite official documents rather than personal opinion?

I know about the unitive/procreative concept but I’m looking for something official that says that all Catholic marriages need to produce at least one child if the couple is biologically capable of it. No exceptions for illness or disability. You are alone for life or you convert to another faith or no faith in order to marry.

When we got married 15 years ago I hoped to be able to have kids so that’s what we said but time showed it should not happen.

 

[samiam1611]

catharina;7641714:

Faith and other virtues enable us to conform
our thoughts and choices to the will of God.

That is our duty and it complements our free will.
We pray to strengthen our faith, hope and charity.

Did Lincoln exist? George Washington?
Or did the historians get it wrong - and our
“history” is just a delusion???/

QUOTE]

This last statement is totally idiotic. These are historical people that we can prove existed. Just as we can prove that Mary, Joseph and Jesus were all real people who actually lived.

What if this man turns out to be a pediphile? or a violent child abuser? If he knows that he was not meant to be a Parent, that that is not his calling in life, that DOES NOT condemn him to live as a single man. BOTH of those reasons fulfill the NFP “rule” to have a “serious reason” to abstain from having children.

I’m a girl by the way. And yeah I thought that thing about lincoln and gw was kinda wacky too! first of all existence of some people is a lot easier thing to prove than that everything that has been written down by Catholics (or Jews or anyone really) is definitely the word of God/or that that person who wrote it down had the authority from God to do so.

 

[cmscms]

Dear OP,

I think your questions to understand God are very good. Unfortunately, since the example you are giving is not wanting children, that is a topic that will always get heated.

We live in a fallen world and which is why often God appears to not make any sense. I can tell you that until I am blue in the face and it will never make sense to you. However, if you seek God in prayer, slowly He can help you understand. (be patient it will take time).

God holds us accountable for our sins. However, He understands out thoughts and feelings and wants to help us see His ways.

We are servants of God which means we SERVE Him. ie we listen to what his says and don’t use ACB. Please don’t confuse that with being his slave. A servant is highly respected, a slave is not.

Sure not wanting kids is understandable from a human point of view. However, from a follower of Christ point of view, it is NOT understandable. Followers do exactly that, they follow. God knows we will fall, that is why he sent His son and gave us the sacrament of reconciliation .

So, in a nut shell, my recommendation is to pray ‘Lord help me see your ways’. Mainly because when a married couple lists ALL the reasons they don’t want kids, the things they get in exchange are not the treasures of heaven.

Example: I don’t want kids because they cost too much. Having more money is NOT a treasure in heaven

Example: I don’t want to change diapers. Avoiding work is not a treasure in heaven

Example: I don’t want to have kids because I want to come and go as I please. That type of freedom is NOT a treasure in heaven

I know from where you are sitting right now, it is a hard concept to graps. But I want to congratulate you on your honesty and desire to continue seeking when you did not receive a 100% warm welcome for your questions

CM