Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[samiam1611]

Hi samiam,

Sorry, I’m late to this party and I didn’t get to read the posts following this one so I might be redundant but:

Just think how much you desire to be loved. How happy you would have been if your parents loved, aherrished and affirmed. If you grew up knowing that for 2 people in this world you are the most special person. Imagine not having to glance twice at yourself before leaving the house because you have all the love you ever needed. Imagine how contagiously positive and confident and optimistic you would be if you grew up with all that support and love.

Now, why would you want a child? To be able to offer him/her all that love and admiration and appreciationthat each human deserves regardless of their physical traits or abilities.

In this society, we have grown to be purely utilitarian, to , love" people only if they produce pleasure, money, lust etc but God called us to love authentically and unconditionally in a self-giving way. We should be compassionate and helpful to those who have less instead we marginalize them and allow them to live alone and scorned. It is not ok for us to be this cold-hearted.

If you have God’s love in your heart- i know you are agnostic/atheist but i can tell from your posts your heart is right - you can love beyond measure. And if a child has that amazing, unconditional love he is the most blessed child on earth!! So few children are loved as they should be, even if they are genetically " perfect".

My second child was born with a huge hematoma on his head which maked him look very deformed, i had no idea what it was initially and when I saw that huge bulge on his head I felt my heart bursting. I felt i wanted to love him for all the people who would not and to shield him in my arms forever. Of course, the bump went down with time but for a long time I was overcome by an " excess" of love because I felt he needed it more.

Now, for you personally, you say you have a slow metabolism- in a family of 5 super skinny people I managed to be the one “blessed” with that as well so for a long time I was on the chubby side. Though it is genetic 2 things help enormously: diet and exercise. I dont think I could ever be a size 0 but i am no longer overweight for many many years.
Frizzy hair, my sister was the lucky one with that and though it’s tiresome, she grew her hair long and uses mousse and it looks great.

There are so many solutions to most of our esthetic imperfections but even if there aren’t we can love and have the right to be loved and that’s the core essential of our existence.

And honestly, the least attractive people in the world, if they have a great personality, they are still loved.
As for having our own children, it’s certainly not because we think they’re great. Catholis do not go by “survival of the fittest”, rather we accept children as a blessing from God and are entrusted to lead them to sanctity with love and sacrifice no matter what shape or form they come in.

Every Christian should be open to adoption if that was God’s plan for them, whether they have children or not. We have friends who have 3 of their own and adopted 3 more. The impirtant part s to be open to new life.

God bless you and I hope one day you will realize how precios you are in His eyes!

Thank you for your kind words 1inICXC. Interestingly, despite 21 pages of posts, your post is not redundant. Your story about your son is touching.

This was the first thread I started when I joined CAF, and wrote the OP as if I was Catholic/believed in God bc I was trying to understand y’all’s theology, not debate, but I am indeed an atheist, so am not obligated to be open to life.

While I still do not have a desire to be a parent, I have gained understanding of your beliefs that could only come from actual discussion with you guys. For instance, HV and TOB explain the theology, but had me baffled why anyone would choose to follow those “rules.”

I have learned that a big part of people’s compliance with the Church’s “rules” is their conviction that the Church is the one true church started by Jesus, and is guided by the Holy Spirit, so cannot err on an issue such as this (morals). That, and also, people loooove that eucharist, and are willing to sacrifice their own desires in order to receive it!

I understand now that a Catholic marriage is not just about 2 people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. A Catholic marriage is for the good of the spouses and the raising of children.

Unfortunately, Nighthawk, as a faithful Catholic, “The intention, when marrying, to never have children (canon 1101§2)” is grounds for an annulment. So although you wouldn’t be sinning by being abstinent, your marriage would not be valid. That might be problematic.

 

[happymommy]

Thank you for your kind words 1inICXC. Interestingly, despite 21 pages of posts, your post is not redundant. Your story about your son is touching.

This was the first thread I started when I joined CAF, and wrote the OP as if I was Catholic/believed in God bc I was trying to understand y’all’s theology, not debate, but I am indeed an atheist, so am not obligated to be open to life.

While I still do not have a desire to be a parent, I have gained understanding of your beliefs that could only come from actual discussion with you guys. For instance, HV and TOB explain the theology, but had me baffled why anyone would choose to follow those “rules.”

I have learned that a big part of people’s compliance with the Church’s “rules” is their conviction that the Church is the one true church started by Jesus, and is guided by the Holy Spirit, so cannot err on an issue such as this (morals). That, and also, people loooove that eucharist, and are willing to sacrifice their own desires in order to receive it!

I understand now that a Catholic marriage is not just about 2 people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. A Catholic marriage is for the good of the spouses and the raising of children.

Unfortunately, Nighthawk, as a faithful Catholic, “The intention, when marrying, to never have children (canon 1101§2)” is grounds for an annulment. So although you wouldn’t be sinning by being abstinent, your marriage would not be valid. That might be problematic.

You have come a long way my friend! I’m glad you have learned so much!

 

[NightHawk2005]

Presuming of course that your wife will not want to have sex as well.

To me that makes no sense. Why get married at all?

Why get married then? Because maybe I find a woman that I truly love and want to spend my life with. If that happens, why wouldn’t I get married? Or is it perfectly okay to merely live with a woman who is not your wife if you’re not going to have sex with her?

Marriage is not just for procreation. It is about love too. If not, what do you make of Genesis 2 18-24? The Lord says that it is not good for man to be alone and that he will make a suitable partner for him, woman, which is why a man will join with his wife and become one flesh.

Nowhere in there does it say they will produce offspring. It says they become one flesh, a married couple. That is the point of marriage, with procreation being secondary. So why shouldn’t I marry if I find that suitable partner?

I have learned that a big part of people’s compliance with the Church’s “rules” is their conviction that the Church is the one true church started by Jesus, and is guided by the Holy Spirit, so cannot err on an issue such as this (morals). That, and also, people loooove that eucharist, and are willing to sacrifice their own desires in order to receive it!

I understand now that a Catholic marriage is not just about 2 people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. A Catholic marriage is for the good of the spouses and the raising of children.

Unfortunately, Nighthawk, as a faithful Catholic, “The intention, when marrying, to never have children (canon 1101§2)” is grounds for an annulment. So although you wouldn’t be sinning by being abstinent, your marriage would not be valid. That might be problematic.

Not so. I have seen a priest say elsewhere that you do have the option of abstaining from sex prior to menopause. It is merely if you actively prevent sex from resulting in children that is forbidden. It doesn’t say you can’t actively prevent sex.

 

[benedictus2]

Why get married then? Because maybe I find a woman that I truly love and want to spend my life with. If that happens, why wouldn’t I get married?

Are you even aware that non-consumation is a ground for annulment?

When a marriage is annuled it means it was never valid.

Or is it perfectly okay to merely live with a woman who is not your wife if you’re not going to have sex with her?

That is more perfectly okay. But you are fooling yourself that you will be able to control yourself especially if you are attracted enough to her to want to marry her. That is pie in the sky and delusion.

Marriage is not just for procreation. It is about love too. If not, what do you make of Genesis 2 18-24? The Lord says that it is not good for man to be alone and that he will make a suitable partner for him, woman, which is why a man will join with his wife and become one flesh.

Exactly where does it say that it means that the two are to abstain from sex?

Sex is the most intimate bonding two people can have which is why God reserved that for marriage.

Nowhere in there does it say they will produce offspring. It says they become one flesh, a married couple.

Become one flesh means that - marital union.

Where did it say that one can wilfully stop any offspring that the Lord may decide to give them when they decide to become as one flesh as often as they want?

That is the point of marriage, with procreation being secondary. So why shouldn’t I marry if I find that suitable partner?

No. Unity and Procreation are both the points of marriage.

If you don’t want children dohn’t have sex.

An exerpt on the topic of marriage from the Catholic Encyclopedia

… therefore marriage as a sacrament, is not accomplished until consummation of the marriage is added to the consent. It is the consummation, therefore, that constitutes the matter or the form.

Not so. I have seen a priest say elsewhere that you do have the option of abstaining from sex prior to menopause.

Not for a long time.

It is merely if you actively prevent sex from resulting in children that is forbidden. It doesn’t say you can’t actively prevent sex.

Well duh, isn’t that precisely what you are doing? Actively prevent sex because you don’t want children?

 

[NightHawk2005]

Are you even aware that non-consumation is a ground for annulment?

When a marriage is annuled it means it was never valid.

No, it isn’t. But even if it is, I could wait 20 years to consumate it, thus making it valid.

That is more perfectly okay. But you are fooling yourself that you will be able to control yourself especially if you are attracted enough to her to want to marry her. That is pie in the sky and delusion.

And you would know this how? I have no issues whatsoever controlling myself and have broken up with a woman because she wanted sex and I didn’t. I’ve gone almost 24 years as a virgin, I can last another 20. You’re just making an assumption.

Exactly where does it say that it means that the two are to abstain from sex?

Sex is the most intimate bonding two people can have which is why God reserved that for marriage.

Become one flesh means that - marital union.

Where did it say that one can wilfully stop any offspring that the Lord may decide to give them when they decide to become as one flesh as often as they want?

Dude, you’re not getting it. I’m not willfully stopping any offspring. I know that stopping any offspring from naturally occurring is disallowed, but if you never have sex, offspring cannot naturally occur. I’m not getting an abortion, I’m not using birth control, I’m not getting a vasectomy. I’m choosing to abstain from sex. The church says that the first three are unacceptable, but is fine with the last option. It doesn’t say you have to abstain from sex, but it doesn’t say you have to engage in it either.

If you don’t want children dohn’t have sex.

DUH. That is exactly my point. I’m NOT going to have sex for approximately the next 20 years. I’m not trying to use birth control or anything to prevent my having sexual relations from giving me a kid. I’m just not going to have sexual relations.

Well duh, isn’t that precisely what you are doing? Actively prevent sex because you don’t want children?

Yes, it is, and the church is perfectly okay with that option. The stance is that sex has to be open to the creation of children. But if you’re willing to forgo sex, you’re allowed to marry and not have children.

 

[His_angel]

Yes, it is, and the church is perfectly okay with that option. The stance is that sex has to be open to the creation of children. But if you’re willing to forgo sex, you’re allowed to marry and not have children.

That is not correct. Being open to life is a requirement to a Catholic marriage. Searching for someone that is sterile for the purpose of never having children would not allow for a valid marriage.

 

[SwizzleStick]

That is not correct. Being open to life is a requirement to a Catholic marriage. Searching for someone that is sterile for the purpose of never having children would not allow for a valid marriage.

Agreed. A Josephite marriage would allow a couple to mutually agree to refrain from the marital embrace. However, to agree to that for the sole purpose of avoiding having children rather than growing in holiness would invalidate the marriage. Discerning such a marriage would require counsel and it is my understanding that it also involves a dispensation from the local bishop, but I would certainly welcome correction and clarification on that point from someone more knowledgeable than I am on the subject. If the parties involved stated that their reason for seeking a Josephite marriage, to avoid having children, I would think the Bishop would not allow it.

No, it isn’t. But even if it is, I could wait 20 years to consumate it, thus making it valid.

And you would know this how? I have no issues whatsoever controlling myself and have broken up with a woman because she wanted sex and I didn’t. I’ve gone almost 24 years as a virgin, I can last another 20. You’re just making an assumption. …

If you were to marry now at 24 and your bride is your age or younger, you might have to wait 25-30 years or more for her to get through menopause to avoid having children.

 

[NightHawk2005]

If you were to marry now at 24 and your bride is your age or younger, you might have to wait 25-30 years or more for her to get through menopause to avoid having children.

I’m aware of that, but it’s highly unlikely I’d have to wait that long. It’s pretty uncommon for a women to not hit menopause until age 50

 

[benedictus2]

No, it isn’t. But even if it is, I could wait 20 years to consumate it, thus making it valid.

Yes, it is. And waiting 20 years. Pie in the sky my friend. Pie in the sky.

And you would know this how? I have no issues whatsoever controlling myself and have broken up with a woman because she wanted sex and I didn’t. I’ve gone almost 24 years as a virgin, I can last another 20. You’re just making an assumption.

A very valid assumption. You were able to say no to someone because you are not living with her. You don’t see her everyday, sleep next to her or next door to her.

Besides, as I have said, what foolish woman will want to get married just to abstain from marital intercourse for 20 years . If such a woman exists, then that woman is most likely given over totally to God.

Yhis is all about you, you, you, you. you…

You have not allowed space for God at all.

Dude, you’re not getting it. I’m not willfully stopping any offspring. I know that stopping any offspring from naturally occurring is disallowed, but if you never have sex, offspring cannot naturally occur.

And marriage becomes a full sacrament when it is consumated.

I’m not getting an abortion, I’m not using birth control, I’m not getting a vasectomy. I’m choosing to abstain from sex. The church says that the first three are unacceptable, but is fine with the last option. It doesn’t say you have to abstain from sex, but it doesn’t say you have to engage in it either.

I already told you. Don’t get married. Get married when you are ready and have gone past your self-obsession and are willing to build a family.

DUH. That is exactly my point. I’m NOT going to have sex for approximately the next 20 years. I’m not trying to use birth control or anything to prevent my having sexual relations from giving me a kid. I’m just not going to have sexual relations.

Then don’t get married. As I have already explained a marriage is not complete until it is consumated.

Yes, it is, and the church is perfectly okay with that option. The stance is that sex has to be open to the creation of children. But if you’re willing to forgo sex, you’re allowed to
marry and not have children.

You are living in a dream world.

 

[benedictus2]

Agreed. A Josephite marriage would allow a couple to mutually agree to refrain from the marital embrace. However, to agree to that for the sole purpose of avoiding having children rather than growing in holiness would invalidate the marriage. Discerning such a marriage would require counsel and it is my understanding that it also involves a dispensation from the local bishop, but I would certainly welcome correction and clarification on that point from someone more knowledgeable than I am on the subject. If the parties involved stated that their reason for seeking a Josephite marriage, to avoid having children, I would think the Bishop would not allow it.

Exactly! The avoidance of sex in this instance is for selfish ends.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I’m aware of that, but it’s highly unlikely I’d have to wait that long. It’s pretty uncommon for a women to not hit menopause until age 50

Incorrect. Actually, the average age is 51. Here are four sources of info on the subject.

nia.nih.gov/HealthInformation/Publications/menopause.htm
menopause.emedtv.com/menopause/average-age-of-menopause.html
ehow.com/about_5431712_average-age-menopause.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menopause

Why get married if you plan to avoid such an important aspect of married life for many, many years? Do you realistically think you can find a woman who would agree to such a plan? Or, a priest who would agree to go along with such a plan? Even if you could find two such people, I think it would be prudent to ask yourself if that is what God would want for you and your bride? Avoiding the marital embrace and celebrating your sacrament, marriage, to concentrate on God and growing in holiness is one thing. Avoiding celebrating your sacrament to avoid pregnancy is something else entirely.

 

[benedictus2]

Incorrect. Actually, the average age is 51.

nia.nih.gov/HealthInformation/Publications/menopause.htm
ehow.com/about_5431712_average-age-menopause.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menopause

Why get married if you plan to avoid such an important aspect of married life for many, many years? Do you realistically think you can find a woman who would agree to such a plan? Or, a priest who would agree to go along with such a plan?

And that is what boggles the mind. It is so downright ludicrous I couldn’t believe this guy is actually serious.

 

[SwizzleStick]

And that is what boggles the mind. …

It is certainly a mystifying idea.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Why get married if you plan to avoid such an important aspect of married life for many, many years? Do you realistically think you can find a woman who would agree to such a plan? Or, a priest who would agree to go along with such a plan? Even if you could find two such people, I think it would be prudent to ask yourself if that is what God would want for you and your bride?

Yes to all of them. I’ve already said why, it’s because I believe marriage is about togetherness, not procreation. I also believe that the Lord would not punish me for wanting so badly to keep His commandments that I’ve searched out every possible way to marry without children that would allow me to still be in His good graces. Why would God want me to be faithful and unhappy?

 

[PatriceA]

Yes to all of them. I’ve already said why, it’s because I believe marriage is about togetherness, not procreation. I also believe that the Lord would not punish me for wanting so badly to keep His commandments that I’ve searched out every possible way to marry without children that would allow me to still be in His good graces. Why would God want me to be faithful and unhappy?

Well you may think you’re being faithful to God by this line of thinking, but you are certainly not being faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Sacrament of Matrimony within the Catholic faith. If you continue along this line of thinking, please DO NOT get married in the Catholic Church, please do not make a mockery out of the sacrament and the vows the couple takes during the ceremony to be open to life. Because you will be mocking your bride and the Catholic faith if you make that vow but fully intend to do otherwise. And I sure hope you fully disclose this prepostorous line of thinking to any girl you plan to marry or you can add deception to your actions.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Yes, it is. And waiting 20 years. Pie in the sky my friend. Pie in the sky.

A very valid assumption. You were able to say no to someone because you are not living with her. You don’t see her everyday, sleep next to her or next door to her.

Your point? It’s a completely invalid assumption. You don’t know me at all. You think everyone is the same and there is nobody strong enough to resist a woman. You’re wrong.

Besides, as I have said, what foolish woman will want to get married just to abstain from marital intercourse for 20 years . If such a woman exists, then that woman is most likely given over totally to God.

Yhis is all about you, you, you, you. you…

You have not allowed space for God at all.

Yes, I have. In fact, the fact that I’m even discussing this subject disproves your claim. God is vital to my life. If He wasn’t, this wouldn’t make a bit of difference to me. I’d just go join the Episcopalian Church or break with the church on this teaching, get a vasectomy and have sex on my wedding night without worrying about it. That this is honestly hard for me is allowing space for God.

I know 98 percent of Catholic women use birth control. I don’t know the number for men, but that suggests it’s high as well. Do you realize how easy it would be for me to say, “Everyone else is doing it, I can go ahead and do this too”? But I haven’t. Your assertion that I’ve not allowed space for God is quite frankly ridiculous.

I already told you. Don’t get married. Get married when you are ready and have gone past your self-obsession and are willing to build a family.

News flash, two people is a family. I’m not ready to marry yet only because I haven’t met the right woman. If I do find her, that will be my family, myself and her. Children are non-negotiable for me, now and forever.

If I never find someone I’d like to spend my life with, that’s fine. But if I do, I do not believe the Lord would want me to have to let her go. If that means I can’t have sex with her, then I’m willing to make that sacrifice.

Then don’t get married. As I have already explained a marriage is not complete until it is consumated.

You are living in a dream world.

No, I’m not. You are rigid and think everyone should have to be the same. It’s really kind of sad.

I’m not having kids ever, no matter what. I already know I’m not going to have sex for the next 20-25 years, the only question is whether I’m married to someone or not. Maybe I don’t get married until after the hypothetical woman hits menopause. Either way, I’m doing whatever it takes to faithfully avoid childbirth.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Well you may think you’re being faithful to God by this line of thinking, but you are certainly not being faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Sacrament of Matrimony within the Catholic faith. If you continue along this line of thinking, please DO NOT get married in the Catholic Church, please do not make a mockery out of the sacrament and the vows the couple takes during the ceremony to be open to life. Because you will be mocking your bride and the Catholic faith if you make that vow but fully intend to do otherwise. And I sure hope you fully disclose this prepostorous line of thinking to any girl you plan to marry or you can add deception to your actions.

Do you honestly think that I wouldn’t discuss this with the woman I planned to marry, if I reach that point? Do you honestly think I would marry a woman who didn’t agree with me on this issue if it’s this important to me?

Oh, and if this would be making a mockery of the sacrament, as you claim, then why does the church allow people who can’t have children to marry? My uncle is planning to be married in the Catholic Church. He’s nearly 60 and his bride is in her late 50s as well. Obviously, they’re never having kids. Yet their marriage is perfectly okay.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Do you honestly think that I wouldn’t discuss this with the woman I planned to marry, if I reach that point? Do you honestly think I would marry a woman who didn’t agree with me on this issue if it’s this important to me?

Oh, and if this would be making a mockery of the sacrament, as you claim, then why does the church allow people who can’t have children to marry? My uncle is planning to be married in the Catholic Church. He’s nearly 60 and his bride is in her late 50s as well. Obviously, they’re never having kids. Yet their marriage is perfectly okay.

They likely aren’t planning to go 20-30 years without celebrating their sacrament.



Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

 

[PatriceA]

Do you honestly think that I wouldn’t discuss this with the woman I planned to marry, if I reach that point? Do you honestly think I would marry a woman who didn’t agree with me on this issue if it’s this important to me?

Oh, and if this would be making a mockery of the sacrament, as you claim, then why does the church allow people who can’t have children to marry? My uncle is planning to be married in the Catholic Church. He’s nearly 60 and his bride is in her late 50s as well. Obviously, they’re never having kids. Yet their marriage is perfectly okay.

Because they are still making the vow to be open to life. That vow is not just about procreating, its about supporting life in ways even outside of being a parent. It means supporting the single mom in the neighborhood, the abandoned people on the street, the needy within our own family and in our neighborhoods. It means fighting against murders, including abortions half way across the world and right next door. It means you and your spouse are going to do everything in your power to support human rights, including the unborn, whether you are able to have children yourself or not.

I can’t imagine ANY priest giving their consent to a marriage as you propose, even if you could get a girl to go along with this irrational decision. You can not omit the vow to be open to life from the Catholic wedding ceremony. Not possible. So you would stand up there before God, profess to be open to life, and basically lie to Him, the priest, and everyone witnessing your wedding. Not a way to start off any kind of marriage and opens yourself up to grounds for divorce later. Because your bride, even if she does agree to this, could say you still made the vow to be open to life. If you can’t honestly say it in front of the priest and Jesus in the tabernacle, you have no business being married in a Catholic wedding ceremony

 

[SwizzleStick]

…I’m not having kids ever, no matter what. I already know I’m not going to have sex for the next 20-25 years, the only question is whether I’m married to someone or not. Maybe I don’t get married until after the hypothetical woman hits menopause. Either way, I’m doing whatever it takes to faithfully avoid childbirth.

You don’t seem to understand that thinking like that is not being faithful to the teachings of the Church.