Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[SwizzleStick]

In order for Catholics to be validly married:

"…Just as individual states have certain requirements for civil marriage (e.g., a marriage license, blood tests), the Catholic Church also has requirements before Catholics can be considered validly married in the eyes of the Church. A valid Catholic marriage results from four elements: (1) the spouses are free to marry; (2) they freely exchange their consent; (3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; and (4) their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister. Exceptions to the last requirement must be approved by church authority. "…

Source: nccbuscc.org/laity/marriage/marriagefaqs.shtml

 

[NightHawk2005]

You’re fine. That was funny.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Because they are still making the vow to be open to life. That vow is not just about procreating, its about supporting life in ways even outside of being a parent. It means supporting the single mom in the neighborhood, the abandoned people on the street, the needy within our own family and in our neighborhoods. It means fighting against murders, including abortions half way across the world and right next door. It means you and your spouse are going to do everything in your power to support human rights, including the unborn, whether you are able to have children yourself or not.

So why can’t I do that? Why can’t I do all of those things, and still elect not to have children?

Answer: I actually can. It’s already been said that you can avoid sex during a woman’s fertile period to avoid pregnancy. That’s my choice. Completely and totally rational, and within the teachings of the church.

 

[SwizzleStick]

… It’s already been said that you can avoid sex during a woman’s fertile period to avoid pregnancy. That’s my choice. Completely and totally rational, and within the teachings of the church.

No. Please see my post #333 above. A couple may not forever avoid sex during the woman’s fertile period to avoid pregnancy. A couple may do that to space children, but not avoid them altogether during their marriage or it is not a valid Catholic marriage.

 

[PatriceA]

So why can’t I do that? Why can’t I do all of those things, and still elect not to have children?

Answer: I actually can. It’s already been said that you can avoid sex during a woman’s fertile period to avoid pregnancy. That’s my choice. Completely and totally rational, and within the teachings of the church.

Nope, sorry. You can try to justify this line of thinking until you’re blue in the face, it won’t change the teachings of the Catholic faith and what makes a marriage valid within the Catholic Church. You can not practice permanent birth control, same reasons the Church is against sterilizations in men and women. You are trying to justify permanent birth control, can’t happen within the Sacrament of Matrimony within the Catholic faith. You can’t change the vows made during the Sacrament. That’s like asking a first communion candidate to not believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist but go ahead and participate in the Sacrament anyways… You can not pick and choose which vows to uphold within the wedding ceremony. You either vow ALL of them OR you go to another faith where you can believe in the promises you are making.

 

[PRmerger]

So why can’t I do that? Why can’t I do all of those things, and still elect not to have children?

Answer: I actually can. It’s already been said that you can avoid sex during a woman’s fertile period to avoid pregnancy. That’s my choice. Completely and totally rational, and within the teachings of the church.

Do you think it’s rational, and “within the teachings of the Church” for a person to convert to Catholicism yet decide to avoid receiving the Eucharist for the rest of his life?

 

[NightHawk2005]

No. Please see my post #333 above. A couple may not forever avoid sex during the woman’s fertile period to avoid pregnancy. A couple may do that to space children, but not avoid them altogether during their marriage or it is not a valid Catholic marriage.

Your post is wrong. I don’t have to justify my position. Pope Pius XII already took care of that for me. It’s included in natural family planning.

From a site claiming that a vasectomy is against the Church’s teachings: The Church stands by its recommendations for Natural Family Planning. The NFP guidelines that are generally taught are ways to recognize and avoid the times of the month when a woman is most likely to be fertile and, thus, be most likely to become pregnant during intercourse. The teachings to couples focus primarily on methods based on the calendar cycle of likely infertile days (the rhythm or standard days method), basal body temperature monitoring, or extending the post-birth lactation period. A less popular method is abstinence until the woman is post-menopausal.

Game over, guys. Now I know I’m right.

 

[PatriceA]

Your post is wrong. I don’t have to justify my position. Pope Pius XII already took care of that for me. It’s included in natural family planning.

From a site claiming that a vasectomy is against the Church’s teachings: The Church stands by its recommendations for Natural Family Planning. The NFP guidelines that are generally taught are ways to recognize and avoid the times of the month when a woman is most likely to be fertile and, thus, be most likely to become pregnant during intercourse. The teachings to couples focus primarily on methods based on the calendar cycle of likely infertile days (the rhythm or standard days method), basal body temperature monitoring, or extending the post-birth lactation period. A less popular method is abstinence until the woman is post-menopausal.

Game over, guys. Now I know I’m right.

Not over until you post the link, for all we know you took that from a site that is anti-Catholic.

Plus, you are continuously missing the point that a couple can only practice abstinance if there is a GRAVE reason to avoid a pregnancy. Simply not wanting children is NOT a grave reason and would make the marriage invalid. You can not work your way around that bottom line fact in Catholic Church teachings. For a marriage to be valid within the eyes of the Catholic Church, the couple must have the understanding they are to vow to be open to life from the very first day of their marriage. Sometimes life may throw a curve ball in the marriage, and the couple needs to practicie natural family planning, but its not to be practiced until the couple is physically incapable of having children.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Your post is wrong. I don’t have to justify my position. Pope Pius XII already took care of that for me. It’s included in natural family planning.

From a site claiming that a vasectomy is against the Church’s teachings: The Church stands by its recommendations for Natural Family Planning. The NFP guidelines that are generally taught are ways to recognize and avoid the times of the month when a woman is most likely to be fertile and, thus, be most likely to become pregnant during intercourse. The teachings to couples focus primarily on methods based on the calendar cycle of likely infertile days (the rhythm or standard days method), basal body temperature monitoring, or extending the post-birth lactation period. A less popular method is abstinence until the woman is post-menopausal.

Game over, guys. Now I know I’m right.

You are wrong. Natural Family Planning involves a husband and wife planning when to increase the size of their family, it is not used to prevent having a family at all.

 

[benedictus2]

Your post is wrong. I don’t have to justify my position. Pope Pius XII already took care of that for me. It’s included in natural family planning.

From a site claiming that a vasectomy is against the Church’s teachings: The Church stands by its recommendations for Natural Family Planning. The NFP guidelines that are generally taught are ways to recognize and avoid the times of the month when a woman is most likely to be fertile and, thus, be most likely to become pregnant during intercourse. The teachings to couples focus primarily on methods based on the calendar cycle of likely infertile days (the rhythm or standard days method), basal body temperature monitoring, or extending the post-birth lactation period. A less popular method is abstinence until the woman is post-menopausal.

Game over, guys. Now I know I’m right.

Nope. Not in the least over. You are terribly wrong and deluded.

It said there “Natural **Family **Planning”. Family planning is about having a family or it would not be called family planning.

What you are proposing is not family planning but family avoidance.

 

[benedictus2]

Your point? It’s a completely invalid assumption. You don’t know me at all. You think everyone is the same and there is nobody strong enough to resist a woman. You’re wrong.

If I know you in person I would wager with you. And I am very confident that I will be the one collecting the money.

Yes, I have. In fact, the fact that I’m even discussing this subject disproves your claim. God is vital to my life.

Sorry but He isn’t. The fact that you are even saying this proves that He isn’t.

If God is your life then you will be open to the possibility of life as the Church has taught.

What you have done is decided that this is what you want (me, me, me,) and you are trying to find a way to sort of still be within the laws prescribed by the Church. You are approaching the Church’s teaching from a legalistic way.

As far as you are concerned God has no say in it. You have decided that you don’t want to be blessed by God with children so how can you say that God matters. It is NightHawk that matters as a far as Nighthawk is concerned.

Selfish, self-absorbed. If God truly matters you will get married according to the teachings of the Church and you will leave it to God to give you the child He wants to give you.

That as far as you are concerned this is non-negotiable means you’ve said no to however God may want to bless you. You are making a god of yourself.

 

[SwizzleStick]

…Game over, guys. Now I know I’m right.

Actually, you know you are incorrect because you’ve said so yourself a few times. I looked over your other posts and you acknowledge it. All 14 of your posts thus far have been about this particular topic. Below is a post of yours from another thread, relevant part bolded.

It’s like that with men too. I’m a sportswriter and I’ve got no desire to have children (I’m open to marriage, but the church opposes that without being open to having kids, so I don’t think that can happen for me), and other writers think that means I’ve GOT to become a priest, even though that is not what I want. It’s like they think just because I picked some profession outside the church, I’m not allowed to be single without a family. I don’t see why that’s wrong at all.

And, below is an excerpt from your opening post in the current thread, relevant part bolded.

Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but this seems perfect for my situation. I’ve found a woman who seems absolutely perfect to me. We connect on several levels and she’s also a Catholic. Unfortunately, given this topic, that’s precisely the problem.

I don’t have any desire to have children and neither does she. We both have said several times that we want to be childfree. Of course, the Church forbids marriage if you’re not open to life, which is pretty depressing since that probably means I’m not going to be able to date/marry her. …

You’re right, game over, at least on my part because I think I’m finished playing. You know what the Church teaches because you’ve stated it. Unless you post something that I just cannot ignore, I’m finished with the game.

God bless you.

 

[NightHawk2005]

If I know you in person I would wager with you. And I am very confident that I will be the one collecting the money.

Sorry but He isn’t. The fact that you are even saying this proves that He isn’t.

If God is your life then you will be open to the possibility of life as the Church has taught.

What you have done is decided that this is what you want (me, me, me,) and you are trying to find a way to sort of still be within the laws prescribed by the Church. You are approaching the Church’s teaching from a legalistic way.

As far as you are concerned God has no say in it. You have decided that you don’t want to be blessed by God with children so how can you say that God matters. It is NightHawk that matters as a far as Nighthawk is concerned.

Selfish, self-absorbed. If God truly matters you will get married according to the teachings of the Church and you will leave it to God to give you the child He wants to give you.

That as far as you are concerned this is non-negotiable means you’ve said no to however God may want to bless you. You are making a god of yourself.

I don’t want to be cursed with children. A child is not a blessing at all in my eyes. For me, a child is a punishment. Why would I want to be punished? Quite obviously, I wouldn’t.

So that’s my position, and after the information I’ve discovered, it’s a perfectly valid one. I’m sorry it offends you, but I found a way to live married life according to the Lord’s teachings and not suffer through having a child, and if the right woman comes along, that’s how I intend to live my life.

Actually, I’m not sorry it offends you. It’s not like you have any say in it.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Actually, you know you are incorrect because you’ve said so yourself a few times. I looked over your other posts and you acknowledge it. All 14 of your posts thus far have been about this particular topic. Below is a post of yours from another thread, relevant part bolded.

And, below is an excerpt from your opening post in the current thread, relevant part bolded.

You’re right, game over, at least on my part because I think I’m finished playing. You know what the Church teaches because you’ve stated it. Unless you post something that I just cannot ignore, I’m finished with the game.

God bless you.

That was before you guys pushed me to dive deeper into this topic and discover new information. Having done so, I now withdraw those earlier posts you quoted, as they are no longer accurate.

 

[His_angel]

That was before you guys pushed me to dive deeper into this topic and discover new information. Having done so, I now withdraw those earlier posts you quoted, as they are no longer accurate.

They are accurate, though. A marriage must be open to life to be valid. Intending never to have biological children for unjust reasons would mean an invalid marriage. “Seeing children as a punishment” is not the same as being medically advised to wait to have children. You simply do not want children, and as having children is part of marriage, you cannot validly marry with that thought process.

Most couples with just reasons to abstain for a time don’t want to, either. They would welcome the children, but through stress or finances or health cannot. You would be the opposite- financially secure and healthy, but without the desire.

 

[NightHawk2005]

If I know you in person I would wager with you. And I am very confident that I will be the one collecting the money.

I’m just as confident you’d be losing that money. You can’t miss something you’ve never had.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Most couples with just reasons to abstain for a time don’t want to, either. They would welcome the children, but through stress or finances or health cannot. You would be the opposite- financially secure and healthy, but without the desire.

Either way, it’s still considered acceptable.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but this seems perfect for my situation. I’ve found a woman who seems absolutely perfect to me. We connect on several levels and she’s also a Catholic. Unfortunately, given this topic, that’s precisely the problem.

I don’t have any desire to have children and neither does she. We both have said several times that we want to be childfree. Of course, the Church forbids marriage if you’re not open to life, which is pretty depressing since that probably means I’m not going to be able to date/marry her.

I don’t want to give up my faith at all, as I like everything else about Catholicism, but I can honestly see it becoming a possibility as I keep thinking back to Genesis saying “It is not good for the man to be alone” and wondering why then the Church requires me to be alone to live the way I want and not live in sin. I want to have a loving, faithful marriage and be with one woman for the rest of my life. I just don’t want to have a kid. Why is that so wrong?

Procreation is the primary purpose of marriage.

Wanting to get married but not wanting kids is like wanting to be an auto mechanic but not work on cars or wanting to be a priest and not celebrate the Mass.

Now there is nothing wrong with not having a call to be a father or mother, it simply means that you aren’t called to the married life. Perhaps you have a vocation to the priesthood or religious life. There are more ways to not “be alone” than marriage.

Pax Christi

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t want to be cursed with children. A child is not a blessing at all in my eyes. For me, a child is a punishment. Why would I want to be punished? Quite obviously, I wouldn’t.

Aaah now the truth comes out.

You are therefore a curse then by your own standards?

You must have been a curse that God inflicted on your parents.

Is that how you see yourself?

Why should any woman then want to marry you? If you were a curse inflicted on your parents, then perhaps you are also a curse upon any one.

Why would you then want to inflict a curse on any one by wanting to marry them?

All this about God’s will being important is total rubbish and a total lie.

You do not think as God does. God regards children as blessing. He said so. You think they are a curse. Obviously then you think opposite to God. You think like the one who is out to undermine God. Satan.

Actually, I’m not sorry it offends you. It’s not like you have any say in it.

Hey, you don’t have to apologize to me. I am not your Creator. I am not the one whose Will you are disobeying.

 

[benedictus2]

I’m just as confident you’d be losing that money. You can’t miss something you’ve never had.

No my dear. You would soooo lose. Unless you are a totally cold blooded male, you would so lose. Sexuality is wired into all of us.

You are totally delusional if you think you can stay celibate for 25 years when you are living next to a woman who is beautiful and desirable in your eyes.