Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

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That was before you guys pushed me to dive deeper into this topic and discover new information. Having done so, I now withdraw those earlier posts you quoted, as they are no longer accurate.
“New information” that you have yet to provide any links to the actual sites you are visiting. Please provide the sources you are getting this “new information” so we can verify its an actual Catholic site and not one in “name” only. Plenty of sites out there may say their “Catholic” but provide information that is contradictory to actual Church teachings.

It would be better if you picked up a Catholicism of the Catholic Church and researched that instead of searching for sites that justify your inaccurate conclusions about this subject.
 
“New information” that you have yet to provide any links to the actual sites you are visiting. Please provide the sources you are getting this “new information” so we can verify its an actual Catholic site and not one in “name” only. Plenty of sites out there may say their “Catholic” but provide information that is contradictory to actual Church teachings.

It would be better if you picked up a Catholicism of the Catholic Church and researched that instead of searching for sites that justify your inaccurate conclusions about this subject.
No, they’re completely accurate. Otherwise, how do you explain the Virgin Mary? Remember, the Catholic Church’s position is that Mary was a virgin throughout her life, even after giving birth to Jesus. Yet Joseph was her husband from before the birth of Christ to his death.

This would mean that Mary never consummated her marriage with Joseph, since she remained a virgin throughout her life. But according to several of you, this would be found unacceptable by the Catholic Church and by the Lord.

So there are only two conclusions to make here: Either the Holy Family was an invalid marriage, or I’m right and I have the option to choose marriage without sex while remaining faithful to the Lord. Which is it?
 
Either way, it’s still considered acceptable.
Nighthawk, I totally get you. However, what you are suggesting is no better than if you got sterilized first bc your intent is the same. (with regards to the validity of the marriage. There is a difference with regards to sin of course.)

Can. 1101 §1. The internal consent of the mind is presumed to conform to the words and signs used in celebrating the marriage.

§2. If, however, either or both of the parties by a positive act of the will exclude marriage itself, some essential element of marriage, or some essential property of marriage, the party contracts invalidly.

What you are suggesting is willfully excluding an essential element of marriage, so your marriage contract will be invalid.

It’s a dumb rule 😛 but that’s the rule.
 
No, they’re completely accurate. Otherwise, how do you explain the Virgin Mary? Remember, the Catholic Church’s position is that Mary was a virgin throughout her life, even after giving birth to Jesus. Yet Joseph was her husband from before the birth of Christ to his death.

This would mean that Mary never consummated her marriage with Joseph, since she remained a virgin throughout her life. But according to several of you, this would be found unacceptable by the Catholic Church and by the Lord.

So there are only two conclusions to make here: Either the Holy Family was an invalid marriage, or I’m right and I have the option to choose marriage without sex while remaining faithful to the Lord. Which is it?
No hon, that’s a Josephite marriage. Not a regular marriage.
 
No, they’re completely accurate. Otherwise, how do you explain the Virgin Mary? Remember, the Catholic Church’s position is that Mary was a virgin throughout her life, even after giving birth to Jesus. Yet Joseph was her husband from before the birth of Christ to his death.

This would mean that Mary never consummated her marriage with Joseph, since she remained a virgin throughout her life. But according to several of you, this would be found unacceptable by the Catholic Church and by the Lord.

So there are only two conclusions to make here: Either the Holy Family was an invalid marriage, or I’m right and I have the option to choose marriage without sex while remaining faithful to the Lord. Which is it?
Again, links to this “accurate sources”?

Mary and Joseph were open to life, and followed God’s will for their marriage. That’s why its valid. You on the other hand, are advocating not following God’s will but your own and not being open to God’s will to be open to life in a marriage, thus making any marriage you enter an invalid marriage within the Catholic faith. Again, if you wish to not follow the teachings of the Church, don’t get married in the Catholic faith.
 
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but this seems perfect for my situation. I’ve found a woman who seems absolutely perfect to me. We connect on several levels and she’s also a Catholic. Unfortunately, given this topic, that’s precisely the problem.

I don’t have any desire to have children and neither does she. We both have said several times that we want to be childfree. Of course, the Church forbids marriage if you’re not open to life, which is pretty depressing since that probably means I’m not going to be able to date/marry her.

I don’t want to give up my faith at all, as I like everything else about Catholicism, but I can honestly see it becoming a possibility as I keep thinking back to Genesis saying “It is not good for the man to be alone” and wondering why then the Church requires me to be alone to live the way I want and not live in sin. I want to have a loving, faithful marriage and be with one woman for the rest of my life. I just don’t want to have a kid. Why is that so wrong?
Did you state you are 23? Has it occured to you that you are neither ready for marriage or for children (or the decision) and neither is the woman you are dating – not right now? And that over time one or both of you may very well change your mind on the subject of having children? At least do not close your mind to the possibility on the basis of how you both feel today.

I would say it’s a rather good thing to wait – simply because the way you feel at 23 or 24 is likely not the same way that you will feel in a few years from now. In fact, you and this woman may or may not be the right partner for each other. I read that you are both not ready for this decision and all that comes with marriage and children.

As for already deciding to wait to consumate a marriage until after menopause – let me be very direct. That time comes when a woman no longer has a cycle plus one year. However, in one example a woman went into menopause at 53 (no more cycles), yet 23 months later she had a cycle. You may consider that that age may be 55 and then another 12 months after that and still be uncertain. The medical test is the age of the last cyle plus 12 more months without a cycle, but as we see here 12 months is no proof that the woman has completed menopause. It’s unrealistic.

I also do not think that it’s God’s purpose that we marry and not consumate the marriage for what may very well be 30 years. You would be taking the sacrament, but not as the sacrament is intended. It’s what’s in your heart that counts here too. In fact, if you enter into a Catholic marriage with an agenda you may be violating the sacrament and not have a valid marriage.

I think you are too young to make this decision and time will tell if you should be with this woman for life and whether or not you change your mind on having children. I can tell you I am not the same person I was at 23 or 24 and you will go through many changes (no pun intended). Good luck and patience.
 
No hon, that’s a Josephite marriage. Not a regular marriage.
According to Wikipedia, a Josephite marriage is: a practice in which a man and a woman live intimately without engaging in any sexual activities.

Well, what do you know, that is EXACTLY what I’ve been planning. Nice to know there are a few rational people here.
 
Did you state you are 23? Has it occured to you that you are neither ready for marriage or for children (or the decision) and neither is the woman you are dating – not right now? And that over time one or both of you may very well change your mind on the subject of having children? At least do not close your mind to the possibility on the basis of how you both feel today.
It has not, because I know I am not ever going to want children. That’s as rock-solid a position as there is for me. That’s a decision I’ve been ready to make for years. My position on children is simple: Not now, not ever. I know that there is no way in heck that I am ever changing my position on wanting to spend 20 years of my life taking care of someone.

As far as marrying her, that’s just a hypothetical right now. Neither one of us have talked seriously about that, and we both understand that if it did happen, it’d be a LONG way down the road. At this point, we are only searching for information to see if dating is something that we could consider, or if it would be a complete waste of time since we wouldn’t be able to marry.

We’re not getting married tomorrow, next week, next month, next year or probably even in the next five years. We just wanted to find out if we have the option since we are both childfree Catholics, and now we know that we do.
 
According to Wikipedia, a Josephite marriage is: a practice in which a man and a woman live intimately without engaging in any sexual activities.

Well, what do you know, that is EXACTLY what I’ve been planning. Nice to know there are a few rational people here.
Seriously? You cited Wikipedia as a source for information regarding your Catholic faith? A proper source is the Catechism. I suggest you read it.
 
It has not, because I know I am not ever going to want children. That’s as rock-solid a position as there is for me. That’s a decision I’ve been ready to make for years. My position on children is simple: Not now, not ever. I know that there is no way in heck that I am ever changing my position on wanting to spend 20 years of my life taking care of someone.

As far as marrying her, that’s just a hypothetical right now. Neither one of us have talked seriously about that, and we both understand that if it did happen, it’d be a LONG way down the road. At this point, we are only searching for information to see if dating is something that we could consider, or if it would be a complete waste of time since we wouldn’t be able to marry.

We’re not getting married tomorrow, next week, next month, next year or probably even in the next five years. We just wanted to find out if we have the option since we are both childfree Catholics, and now we know that we do.
You know what is coming to mind for me when reading your posts? A young boy covering his ears with his hands and saying over and over again, “La, la, la, la. I can’t hear you!” You have been told the truth. You are young, so there is hope you will outgrow your obstinance and accept the truth that if you want to validly marry, you must be open to life. Period.
 

What are some reasons that justify avoiding pregnancy?​

Full Question
I have heard that it is acceptable to use NFP for avoiding pregnancy if the reason is serious. Could you please tell me what reasons justify avoiding pregnancy?

Answer

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, “A particular.aspect of [the fecundity of marriage] concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children” (CCC 2368). But the Catechism does not explicitly define what constitutes “just reasons.” Instead, proper determination is left up to the couple: “It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood” (CCC 2368).

However, the language used in Church documents may be somewhat helpful. For example, Gaudium et Spes states,

[C]ertain modern conditions often keep couples from arranging their married lives harmoniously, and . . . they find themselves in circumstances where at least temporarily the size of their families should not be increased. As a result, the faithful exercise of love and the full intimacy of their lives is hard to maintain. (GS 51)

Humanae Vitae says that a couple may morally space births if there are well-grounded reasons “arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances” (HV 16).

Ultimately, each couple must determine for themselves whether “just reasons” truly exist. Vademecum for Confessors Concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life explains, “Certainly it is a duty of married couples—who, for that matter, should seek appropriate counsel—to deliberate deeply and in a spirit of faith about the size of their family, and to decide the concrete mode of realizing it, with respect for the moral criteria of conjugal life” (2.3).

Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfill their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church’s teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel. That divine law reveals and protects the integral meaning of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment. (GS 50)

Source of Q&A: catholic.com/quickquestions/what-are-some-reasons-that-justify-avoiding-pregnancy
 
According to Wikipedia, a Josephite marriage is: a practice in which a man and a woman live intimately without engaging in any sexual activities.

Well, what do you know, that is EXACTLY what I’ve been planning. Nice to know there are a few rational people here.
No, its not EXACTLY what you are planning. You are planning to have sexual relations with your spouse after menopause. A Josephite marriage is about the husband and wife practicing celibacy and chastity for the duration of the marriage. Its a permanent state of chastity and certainly not used to avoid having children. You are once again innacurately trying to avoid having children. That’s not the intended purpose of a Josephite marriage.
 


Can. 1101 §1. The internal consent of the mind is presumed to conform to the words and signs used in celebrating the marriage.

§2. If, however, either or both of the parties by a positive act of the will exclude marriage itself, some essential element of marriage, or some essential property of marriage, the party contracts invalidly.

What you are suggesting is willfully excluding an essential element of marriage, so your marriage contract will be invalid.

It’s a dumb rule 😛 but that’s the rule.
Yeah, really dumb. Who needs fidelity or monogamy or permanence or children in a marriage, anyway. Not me. I rule all those out. That’s my kind of marriage.
 
Yeah, really dumb. Who needs fidelity or monogamy or permanence or children in a marriage, anyway. Not me. I rule all those out. That’s my kind of marriage.
huh? I don’t rule all those things out. I just disagree with the rule that if you intend to not have children, you can’t get married or if you do somehow get around that rule, your marriage is not valid anyway.
It’s only if you look at it from a Catholic perspective that you understand why the rule exists. From a secular perspective, the rule is pointless. As an atheist, I did not understand it. An atheist sees no reason to accept that rule and feels sorry for people who abstain completely, or have children they didn’t want to have bc NFP failed or who stress out about going to hell bc of a contraceptive mindset. They go through all this suffering in an effort to get to heaven which IMO doesn’t even exist.

Although I am still an atheist, I understand it better now, but only in religious context. If I put myself in a theist’s shoes, if I “pretend” (in my mind) to be a Catholic, I get it.
 
What luck, that is EXACTLY what I happen to be!
Aah Nighthawk. You’ve got no idea the extent of depravity to which you have assented.

And you expect to inflict such punishment on a woman? I suppose a masochist would blend with you perfectly. Another one equally depraved.
 
According to Wikipedia, a Josephite marriage is: a practice in which a man and a woman live intimately without engaging in any sexual activities.

Well, what do you know, that is EXACTLY what I’ve been planning. Nice to know there are a few rational people here.
A Josephite marriage is granted for the purposes of gaining holiness not for the depraved reasons you propose.

I don’t see why you need the blessing of the Church considering that God’s will mean zilch to you.
 
A Josephite marriage is granted for the purposes of gaining holiness not for the depraved reasons you propose. I don’t see why you need the blessing of the Church considering that God’s will mean zilch to you.
It’s against forum rules to question the sincerity of another’s beliefs, and uncalled for in this case anyway. From what I can tell, being a faithful Catholic is important to Nighthawk. He doesn’t agree with this teaching, so is trying to find a way around the rule. He thinks he found one. He did not, but how about we charitably explain it to him instead of questioning his ability to abstain or his faith in God? As I said a few pages back, discussion helped me understand why the Church teaches this so let’s engage him in discussion, not insult him.
 
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