Can a gay leader, priest, pastor, shepard, etc., see heaven?

[Peter_J]

Wow. 80% say yes so far .

So it would seem. However, I’m guessing that the people who said “No”

1. believe that someone is only “gay” if they have engaged in same-sex relations and
2. don’t understand the role of repentance/forgiveness in Christianity.

(Or maybe some posters just gave the answer that you obviously wanted?)

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I have to agree with the resounding responses here: the poll is very poorly worded. Even So, you would’ve likely received the responses you were looking for had you explained what you meant by “gay leader”. Is this a cleric who just so happens to be gay or attracted to the same sex, or is it a “leader” in the “gay” movement including but not limited to advocating for same-sex marriage, practicing homosexual sex, and encouraging others to do the same? I’m withholding answering the poll until you provide more details.

 

[josh987654321]

No way were kids allowed to cross dress in schools and now it is common practice and a vast majority here are okay with it?

I’m definitely not okay with that, and I think the majority here are likewise not okay with it, but I also didn’t think the poll was on ‘cross-dressing’

So you all will fly the rainbow flag in front of your church too?

Not a chance (unless of course it’s in reference to Noah’s Arc, but certainly not in relation to LGBTQI), I don’t know how you arrived to these conclusions given our responses.

And gayness is not one of the 7 deadly sins. You choose it (gay), you lose it (salvation).

It depends what you mean by ‘gay’ if you mean the sexual acts of homosexuality or the ‘lifestyle’ of courting partners of the same sex, than yes, but if you include same sex attraction, than no.

Even if you claim to be and don’t practice. There is no difference.

I disagree, there is a big difference. Have you never been tempted to sin in some area before?

Is this the position of your respective churches? As I recall, our LORD calls it an abomination. Not my words. Of course we can blame it on the sola scriptura crowd. We need to roll with the changes, right? We need to fit the Bible into today’s world. Good luck with that. It’s the other way around. I’ll pray u pray on it. Even so, come LORD JESUS!

When it comes to viewing Homosexuality, I hope you don’t mind if I share the following -

Leviticus say’s this regarding the sexual acts of homosexuality -
Law of Moses:

Leviticus 18:22

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

This is what Leviticus say’s regarding Adultery -
Law of Moses:

Leviticus 18:16

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

Leviticus 20:10

10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

Now I look at how Jesus fulfills the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-20) in the New Testament -
The Gospel of John 8:3-11:

**A Woman Caught In Sin **

3 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law of Moses brought in a woman who had been caught in bed with a man who wasn’t her husband. They made her stand in the middle of the crowd. 4 Then they said, “Teacher, this woman was caught sleeping with a man who isn’t her husband. 5 The Law of Moses teaches that a woman like this should be stoned to death! What do you say?”

6 They asked Jesus this question, because they wanted to test him and bring some charge against him. But Jesus simply bent over and started writing on the ground with his finger.

7 They kept on asking Jesus about the woman. Finally, he stood up and said, “If any of you have never sinned, then go ahead and throw the first stone at her!” 8 Once again he bent over and began writing on the ground. 9 The people left one by one, beginning with the oldest. Finally, Jesus and the woman were there alone.

10 Jesus stood up and asked her, “Where is everyone? Isn’t there anyone left to accuse you?”

11 “No sir,” the woman answered.

Then Jesus told her, “I am not going to accuse you either. You may go now, but don’t sin anymore.”

I believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality should be seen likewise.

I believe Homosexuals are no different to any one of us, I believe there is not one man or woman who does not suffer from an immoral desire of some kind (all in different areas and intensities) and that our desires are not who we are, as we make the choice whether to act on them or not.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Peter_J]

I have to agree with the resounding responses here: the poll is very poorly worded. Even So, you would’ve likely received the responses you were looking for had you explained what you meant by “gay leader”. Is this a cleric who just so happens to be gay or attracted to the same sex, or is it a “leader” in the “gay” movement including but not limited to advocating for same-sex marriage, practicing homosexual sex, and encouraging others to do the same?

I can see your point, and I can certainly allow that four posters answered the poll according to that interpretation. Nevertheless, that is absolutely not a justification for saying “A gay leader cannot go to heaven” … just look in the CCC under repentance, forgiveness, mercy etc.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Wow. 80% say yes so far . Gotta be kidding me. Figured it to be the other way. This is how progressivism works. So how many of you that were here 30 years ago would have felt the same? No way were kids allowed to cross dress in schools and now it is common practice and a vast majority here are okay with it? How far we have fallen! In such a short time. GOD forgive us! We say gay is okay? So you all will fly the rainbow flag in front of your church too? And gayness is not one of the 7 deadly sins. You choose it (gay), you lose it (salvation). Even if you claim to be and don’t practice. There is no difference. Is this the position of your respective churches? As I recall, our LORD calls it an abomination. Not my words. Of course we can blame it on the sola scriptura crowd. We need to roll with the changes, right? We need to fit the Bible into today’s world. Good luck with that. It’s the other way around. I’ll pray u pray on it. Even so, come LORD JESUS!

WOW! you are incredibly talented at reading between the lines if you were able to discern all that information from the answers so far.

 

[jlhargus]

A Gay person ‘could’ see heaven - being gay ISN’T a sin…
…It’s the act of buggery man with man or woman with woman that’s sin.

Oh, and each one of us that are not gay are guilty of “sins” of one form or another…
…Who is to say OUR SIN isn’t equally bad as the buggerite?
…We tend to minimize our own sins - at least I catch myself doing that.

Amen.

 

[Pythons]

I think you need to check your dictionary en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buggery

A man and woman (in other words two people of opposite sex) can just as easily practice buggery as two men. I am not sure how two women can do it - but perhaps you can explain.

So according to the dictionary, lesbians are not committing any sin.

Yes, a man and a woman can actively engage in buggery…
…In the “gay community” whereas females are concerned.
…One participant adopts the role of the man.

Within the community the woman who’s adopted the male role is referred to as “the husband”…
…While the woman who’s subservient to “the husband” is known and understood to be “the wife”.
…I’ve worked with several people involved with this “type of arrangement”.

According to these people, they practice same sex buggery…
…And like some heterosexuals they describe / gloat about their activities.
…The dominant woman who expects to viewed as a man brags about the act in front of other men.

Perhaps I’m not understanding what you mean Openminded77?

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I can see your point, and I can certainly allow that four posters answered the poll according to that interpretation. Nevertheless, that is absolutely not a justification for saying “A gay leader cannot go to heaven” … just look in the CCC under repentance, forgiveness, mercy etc.

More reason to bring attention to the poor wording of this poll! The OP hasn’t come back to further define his terminology so we’re all left with assumptions about what he intended to say. While the Catholic Church indeed teaches mercy, repentance, and forgiveness I could see how a reader of the poll interpreted “gay leader” as an unrepentant LGBTer.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Yes, a man and a woman can actively engage in buggery…
…In the “gay community” whereas females are concerned.
…One participant adopts the role of the man.

Within the community the woman who’s adopted the male role is referred to as “the husband”…
…While the woman who’s subservient to “the husband” is known and understood to be “the wife”.
…I’ve worked with several people involved with this “type of arrangement”.

According to these people, they practice same sex buggery…
…And like some heterosexuals they describe / gloat about their activities.
…The dominant woman who expects to viewed as a man brags about the act in front of other men.

Perhaps I’m not understanding what you mean Openminded77?

I’ll admit that my familiarity with gays and lesbians is minimal, but of the handful I’ve met who have introduced me to their partners none of them understand their relationships as you describe them here.

In any case, Openminded77 is pointing out that buggery means anal intercourse. It doesn’t mean homosexuality per se.

 

[Pythons]

I’ll admit that my familiarity with gays and lesbians is minimal, but of the handful I’ve met who have introduced me to their partners none of them understand their relationships as you describe them here.

In any case, Openminded77 is pointing out that buggery means anal intercourse. It doesn’t mean homosexuality per se.

I’ve worked with many gay people over the years - both men and women & got to know them…
…in a casual, open type of environment, if they trust or are not afraid to open up a bit.
…They will, like many others, speak of their “proclivities”.

I currently work with 4 gay women who happen to think of themselves “as the man” in their relationship…
…They all refer to their significant other as “my wife” & likewise.
…Their “wife” refers to them as their “husband”.

This is most evident in the butch culture where a woman does her best to look at act like a rather crude man…
…In hopes of attracting “a woman” who wants a woman but wants them to act, dress like a Harley Davidson Biker type “man”.
…It would seem this type of thing would be some type of mental illness.

I don’t understand it or agree with it - I’ve just accepted that’s the way some are…

On the other hand I’ve also known women who both look and act like one would traditionally expect that are same sex attracted and live with another woman who you would never know is gay - it would appear that THESE TYPES are actually wired that way from birth. I.e. they were born that way.

In the end I maintain that a gays sins are no worse than my own because people ( I know I do )…
Often contrast their own sins with someone else because it makes them feel they aren’t “that bad”.
…The reality is that all of us on this earth are lost except for Christ.

I’m thinking a gay COULD enter heaven, even a gay who struggles with buggery…
…It depends on their heart and how God works with them and how they react.
…I don’t want to judge to much about it.

 

[CuriousMike]

If Yes AND No were an answer, I’d pick that.

It really is dependent on how they look at God and what we see in the scripture regarding ACTING UPON SSA. Remember that having that does not automatically condemn one to hell.

If they, like many of us, slip into sin, but come back to God with the intent of not sinning again - I’m sure its ‘possible’ they could see heaven (i.e. no more certain than anyone else in the state of grace and not mortal sin).

If they choose to sin, and reject the teachings in scripture (but otherwise claim to be Christian) - well, maybe “no” is more relevant. In that sense, I’d see that as believing that you know better, and “God would forgive me because I’m otherwise a really good person/Christian.”

As for the type that openly rejects God, Christ and the Holy Spirit?
That answers itself.

We should all recite a prayer for the latter two types who either reject God or His teaching, revealed in scripture, that they may come to know the truth.

 

[Peter_J]

More reason to bring attention to the poor wording of this poll! The OP hasn’t come back to further define his terminology so we’re all left with assumptions about what he intended to say.

True, although I don’t have any reason to think that he would do a better job of it than you have been.

While the Catholic Church indeed teaches mercy, repentance, and forgiveness I could see how a reader of the poll interpreted “gay leader” as an unrepentant LGBTer.

Even though I said “I can see your point” w.r.t. your previous idea to interpret “gay leader” as a sinful activist, now I have to say that you’re just twisting things: just because someone is now an [unrepentant] “gay leader” does not mean that he/she cannot repent before death and go to heaven.

You should seriously look at where your heart is.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Wow. 80% say yes so far . Gotta be kidding me. Figured it to be the other way. This is how progressivism works. So how many of you that were here 30 years ago would have felt the same? No way were kids allowed to cross dress in schools and now it is common practice and a vast majority here are okay with it? How far we have fallen! In such a short time. GOD forgive us! We say gay is okay? So you all will fly the rainbow flag in front of your church too? And gayness is not one of the 7 deadly sins. You choose it (gay), you lose it (salvation). Even if you claim to be and don’t practice. There is no difference. Is this the position of your respective churches? As I recall, our LORD calls it an abomination. Not my words. Of course we can blame it on the sola scriptura crowd. We need to roll with the changes, right? We need to fit the Bible into today’s world. Good luck with that. It’s the other way around. I’ll pray u pray on it. Even so, come LORD JESUS!

I said yes.

Do I support same sex acts? Not a chance.
Do I support same sex marriage? No.
Would I fly a rainbow flag out the front of my church? Hell, no.
Is same sex sexual activity a sin? Yes.

Is it the unforgivable sin? Not last time I read the bible.

All sinners can see heaven, by the grace of God.

 

[Even_So]

I can see your point, and I can certainly allow that four posters answered the poll according to that interpretation. Nevertheless, that is absolutely not a justification for saying “A gay leader cannot go to heaven” … just look in the CCC under repentance, forgiveness, mercy etc.

Maybe it should have been worded if you teach gay is okay? Would it change any answers? You would still follow a church instead of the LORD? Repentence was not part of the question. If you identify as being gay, have u not gone against GOD? Were we created gay, or was it sin that started it? Why is it so prevalent today? I find it hard to believe so many think it is okay. As for mercy

Jeremy 23:1Douay-Rheims Bible
Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord

Eze 34:2 American King James Version
Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD to the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks(?)

 

[Even_So]

WOW! you are incredibly talented at reading between the lines if you were able to discern all that information from the answers so far.

Well, I am a know it all Protestant after all.

 

[at9009]

Maybe it should have been worded if you teach gay is okay? Would it change any answers? You would still follow a church instead of the LORD? Repentence was not part of the question. If you identify as being gay, have u not gone against GOD? Were we created gay, or was it sin that started it? Why is it so prevalent today? I find it hard to believe so many think it is okay. As for mercy

Jeremy 23:1Douay-Rheims Bible
Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord

Eze 34:2 American King James Version
Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD to the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks(?)

You are still being kind of vague. There is a lot of difference in definition in words between people. Does gay simply mean attracted to others of the same sex (which it does for many) or same sex sexual acts for you? Do you consider it a sin for someone to say they are gay meaning they have SSA? Or are you referring to someone who is advocating that same sex sexual acts (whether physical or lust) are morally okay. The two are pretty different. In the Catholic Church (I don’t know about your particular denomination) having same sex attractions is not sinful, it represents a trial for said person.

I know it sounds like I am being nit-picky with words, but that is not my intention. However, lack of understanding of what one means does drive many from God and Christ.

 

[Even_So]

I will reword said question, but I think most of you know what I mean. You just don’t want to agree with a Protestant.

If you are a leader in a church and teach gay is not a sin, without allegedly committing the act and leaving repentence out because there’s not forgiveness without repentence obviously, will GOD allow you into Heaven? Some one else want to word it better if that ain’t good enough? I would appreciate it.

Maybe a moderater can swipe the poll clean or suntin.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I will reword said question, but I think most of you know what I mean. You just don’t want to agree with a Protestant.

If you are a leader in a church and teach gay is not a sin, without allegedly committing the act and leaving repentence out because there’s not forgiveness without repentence obviously, will GOD allow you into Heaven? Some one else want to word it better if that ain’t good enough? I would appreciate it.

Maybe a moderater can swipe the poll clean or suntin.

Being tempted( having attractions to someone ofthe same sex ) is not a sin , however committing sexual acts contrary to the Scriptures ( same sex marriage, same sex activity) is wrong , but there is a difference .

Hope that helps , Keep the faith Even So , Starwars

 

[Even_So]

You are still being kind of vague. There is a lot of difference in definition in words between people. Does gay simply mean attracted to others of the same sex (which it does for many) or same sex sexual acts for you? Do you consider it a sin for someone to say they are gay meaning they have SSA? Or are you referring to someone who is advocating that same sex sexual acts (whether physical or lust) are morally okay. The two are pretty different. In the Catholic Church (I don’t know about your particular denomination) having same sex attractions is not sinful, it represents a trial for said person.

I know it sounds like I am being nit-picky with words, but that is not my intention. However, lack of understanding of what one means does drive many from God and Christ.

Legit concerns. It no matter to me if you commit acts or not. Hopefully my last question was less vague

 

[at9009]

I will reword said question, but I think most of you know what I mean. You just don’t want to agree with a Protestant.

If you are a leader in a church and teach gay is not a sin, without allegedly committing the act and leaving repentence out because there’s not forgiveness without repentence obviously, will GOD allow you into Heaven? Some one else want to word it better if that ain’t good enough? I would appreciate it.

Maybe a moderater can swipe the poll clean or suntin.

Again this is still vague to me. What is gay? Having same sex attractions or sex sex sexual acts? One could teach that gay is not a sin if referring to temptations. They would represent a cross/burden to resist but not a sin (this might be a difference in teachings between the Catholic Church and your church’s teachings, I’m not sure). If you are referring to advocating that same sex sexual acts are moral, then yes that would be considered sinful and goes against Catholic teaching.

So I think you are trying to say if a Church leader was teaching that same sex sexual acts (including same sex marriage) are moral. That obviously would go against our teaching?

I don’t like the question because we don’t decide who gets into Heaven, Christ does. What I would suggest in that case, would be to counsel the person about current church teaching (which includes the concern for the person’s eternal soul), show the reasoning, and offer to pray and help guide them towards conversion of hearts.

Additionally, if in the Catholic Church they couldn’t hold their position of leadership while teaching against Catholic doctrine.