Can a Homosexual become a Heterosexual?

[Dakota_Roberts]

I’m not sure if your heart is just filled with hate or if you’re a closeted homosexual. You seem to be trying to simplify reasons for SSA/homosexuality. The reality is there is no simple answers and there is scientific evidence that suggests homosexuality is genetic. If that is found to be true, then I believe you are saying God has created something imperfect. I don’t know what the right answer is, nor do I ignorantly pretend to “know” things that I have no knowledge of; what I do know is that the teaching of the church are to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Your hate is offensive and I for one am not God and will not pass judgement on these people nor will I make any suggestion to any of them but to live a good Catholic life and pray for the answers they seek. “Emasculated Men, Feminists putting them down”, you should pray for guidance, understanding, empathy because there sounds to be quite a bit of hate in your message against gays, women and the men who love them. Put yourself in their shoes for a day, see if you can force yourself to have SSA, if you’re repulsed by the exercise, you can only imagine how you’re making these people feel.

She is a mother who has greatly been wounded by her son running away after telling her he was gay.
It’s highly probably that there are genetic factors that can up the chance, but the chance there are genes that guarantee it is effectively nil.

The soul is made by God directly, the human body wasn’t. The human body is affect by concupiscence and since the person is both body and soul

Again, she’s been severely hurt, trying to convince her that odds are her child can’t be “normal” is like trying to convince a five year old Santa doesn’t exist, likely to work and if it does you probably just won jerk of the year

Absolutely! People convert and get married to members of the opposite sex, but you never hear the message from the main stream media.

Getting married and having kids means nothing, it was frequently used as a cover which is known as “growing a beard”

 

[MarkAndrew]

She is a mother who has greatly been wounded by her son running away after telling her he was gay.
It’s highly probably that there are genetic factors that can up the chance, but the chance there are genes that guarantee it is effectively nil.

The soul is made by God directly, the human body wasn’t. The human body is affect by concupiscence and since the person is both body and soul

Again, she’s been severely hurt, trying to convince her that odds are her child can’t be “normal” is like trying to convince a five year old Santa doesn’t exist, likely to work and if it does you probably just won jerk of the year

Getting married and having kids means nothing, it was frequently used as a cover which is known as “growing a beard”

I have a friend who is a mother of a gay son. They tried everything, conversion therapy, etc. He changed for “a while” but admitted that deep down in side, no matter how hard he prayed, he still had the SSA. His family did everything to exclude this child from their life when it might appear they were “condoning” his lifestyle. I know all of these people and if one of you says he “didn’t sincerely try to change” I’ll drive to where you are and throw a glass of cold water into your face. He tried with all his heart, I was there with him the entire way. The program was nothing short of hell on earth for him. Not once could his family agree that they might be wrong and should try some other tactic to have a relationship with their son. End of story, father dies of brain cancer, son feels so guilty (and has a bad genetic disorder which caused him lots of additional pain) and takes a hand full of pain killers one night. Tragic ending to the story, mother realizes she should have loved her son, accepted him and tried other avenues to help him keep Christ in his life. I truly believe SSA is genetic, I saw this guy TRY with everything he had and it didn’t work. I saw this guy cry every single night looking for help and he’s dead now. This was a great Catholic family I grew up with and trust me, the mother was not dominant and the father not emasculated. He was the “Man” of the house and you knew it. He was a police officer and he didn’t any flack from his family. A good strong father, a mother who stayed home daily and cooked 3 meals a day for all 5 kids. So no, I don’t feel like the jerk of the year, I feel like a good Catholic who feels the need to say, “ease up on these people, we’re hating people we don’t understand nor have the training to understand” We need to accept people for who they are and try to help them live good Catholic lives and pray for their souls. Because I believe that’s what Catholicism is really about. This woman is looking for excuses as to why her situation is what it is, reality is, we may never know the reason but we can’t blame “families” for what happens. Things just happy and all we can do is PRAY for guidance and for the souls of our families. I’m sorry if you feel I’m a jerk, this wound I have is still very new and fresh. Within months. I went along with all this BS and I do have feelings of having been responsible for this persons death. I could have mentioned other possibilities and options, but instead I pushed for this conversion junk. It doesn’t work, it never will. If somebody is truly GAY and not Bi or Experimenting, then I do not believe in my heart they can change. We need to pray and maybe push to a chaste life until we all fully understand. The catholic church is slow to change because they are careful, but I believe in my heart they will come up with a good way to handle these situations which is less painful to the individuals involved. And God did make man in his own image, so I do believe we were made by God and he makes no mistakes.

 

[nickybr38]

I have a friend who is a mother of a gay son. They tried everything, conversion therapy, etc. He changed for “a while” but admitted that deep down in side, no matter how hard he prayed, he still had the SSA. His family did everything to exclude this child from their life when it might appear they were “condoning” his lifestyle. I know all of these people and if one of you says he “didn’t sincerely try to change” I’ll drive to where you are and throw a glass of cold water into your face. He tried with all his heart, I was there with him the entire way. The program was nothing short of hell on earth for him. Not once could his family agree that they might be wrong and should try some other tactic to have a relationship with their son. End of story, father dies of brain cancer, son feels so guilty (and has a bad genetic disorder which caused him lots of additional pain) and takes a hand full of pain killers one night. Tragic ending to the story, mother realizes she should have loved her son, accepted him and tried other avenues to help him keep Christ in his life. I truly believe SSA is genetic, I saw this guy TRY with everything he had and it didn’t work. I saw this guy cry every single night looking for help and he’s dead now. This was a great Catholic family I grew up with and trust me, the mother was not dominant and the father not emasculated. He was the “Man” of the house and you knew it. He was a police officer and he didn’t any flack from his family. A good strong father, a mother who stayed home daily and cooked 3 meals a day for all 5 kids. So no, I don’t feel like the jerk of the year, I feel like a good Catholic who feels the need to say, “ease up on these people, we’re hating people we don’t understand nor have the training to understand” We need to accept people for who they are and try to help them live good Catholic lives and pray for their souls. Because I believe that’s what Catholicism is really about. This woman is looking for excuses as to why her situation is what it is, reality is, we may never know the reason but we can’t blame “families” for what happens. Things just happy and all we can do is PRAY for guidance and for the souls of our families. I’m sorry if you feel I’m a jerk, this wound I have is still very new and fresh. Within months. I went along with all this BS and I do have feelings of having been responsible for this persons death. I could have mentioned other possibilities and options, but instead I pushed for this conversion junk. It doesn’t work, it never will. If somebody is truly GAY and not Bi or Experimenting, then I do not believe in my heart they can change. We need to pray and maybe push to a chaste life until we all fully understand. The catholic church is slow to change because they are careful, but I believe in my heart they will come up with a good way to handle these situations which is less painful to the individuals involved. And God did make man in his own image, so I do believe we were made by God and he makes no mistakes.

And I contend we should not speak in absolutes and thus pigeon hole people who could possibly be helped.

Why are we speaking in absolutes when we speak of people with SSA? Why do we assume every last one cannot be helped just because some couldn’t be?

I don’t think human beings can be pigeon holed like that. Some can be helped, some can’t. Bottom line. It will depend on the person and it will depend on the circumstances.

 

[michelleds]

I have a friend who is a mother of a gay son. They tried everything, conversion therapy, etc. He changed for “a while” but admitted that deep down in side, no matter how hard he prayed, he still had the SSA. His family did everything to exclude this child from their life when it might appear they were “condoning” his lifestyle. I know all of these people and if one of you says he “didn’t sincerely try to change” I’ll drive to where you are and throw a glass of cold water into your face. He tried with all his heart, I was there with him the entire way. The program was nothing short of hell on earth for him. Not once could his family agree that they might be wrong and should try some other tactic to have a relationship with their son. End of story, father dies of brain cancer, son feels so guilty (and has a bad genetic disorder which caused him lots of additional pain) and takes a hand full of pain killers one night. Tragic ending to the story, mother realizes she should have loved her son, accepted him and tried other avenues to help him keep Christ in his life. I truly believe SSA is genetic, I saw this guy TRY with everything he had and it didn’t work. I saw this guy cry every single night looking for help and he’s dead now. This was a great Catholic family I grew up with and trust me, the mother was not dominant and the father not emasculated. He was the “Man” of the house and you knew it. He was a police officer and he didn’t any flack from his family. A good strong father, a mother who stayed home daily and cooked 3 meals a day for all 5 kids. So no, I don’t feel like the jerk of the year, I feel like a good Catholic who feels the need to say, “ease up on these people, we’re hating people we don’t understand nor have the training to understand” We need to accept people for who they are and try to help them live good Catholic lives and pray for their souls. Because I believe that’s what Catholicism is really about. This woman is looking for excuses as to why her situation is what it is, reality is, we may never know the reason but we can’t blame “families” for what happens. Things just happy and all we can do is PRAY for guidance and for the souls of our families. I’m sorry if you feel I’m a jerk, this wound I have is still very new and fresh. Within months. I went along with all this BS and I do have feelings of having been responsible for this persons death. I could have mentioned other possibilities and options, but instead I pushed for this conversion junk. It doesn’t work, it never will. If somebody is truly GAY and not Bi or Experimenting, then I do not believe in my heart they can change. We need to pray and maybe push to a chaste life until we all fully understand. The catholic church is slow to change because they are careful, but I believe in my heart they will come up with a good way to handle these situations which is less painful to the individuals involved. And God did make man in his own image, so I do believe we were made by God and he makes no mistakes.

There is no “gay gene”. The human genome project did not find a gay gene; if one had been found, it would have been the lead story for months.

The Church does not require that someone with SSA get married and have kids. The Church requires Chastity of everyone, including persons with SSA. We are all called to holiness. We should pursue the virtues and avoid the vices and near occasions of sin.

It is not relevant what you believe in your heart about whether someone can change. Whether someone changes is up to that person and God’s Grace. Period.

And before you go off and put your foot in it, there are people participating on CAF and even in this thread who have or had SSA and are living Catholic lives in full compliance with Catholic Church teachings.

 

[StevenFrancis]

What are your thoughts?

The reasons why various men and women engage in homosexual acts, (which are sinful), are varied and the seeds which lead the person into performing these acts can vary all the way from pure genetic disposition to complete social conditioning and engineering. To my knowledge no single cause of homosexual behaviors has been proven in research. So I guess as a direct answer to your question, (and assuming that you what you actually mean is: "can a person who experiences strong or exclusive same sex attraction ever experience opposite sex attraction, either simultaneously or exclusively?) When phrased this way, then, probably, in most cases the answer would be yes. It’s not really the problem though. At least regarding the Catholic Church. The Catholic understanding of the sinful nature of homosexual acts would not, can not, and will not change regardless of any finding whatsoever concerning the reasons why some individuals commit sexual acts with members of the same sex.

It is known that to take action on same sex attraction is mortal sin. That is known. If it happens, and is unrepented, it can separate one from God, and can lead to an eternal separation from God. No Christian wants this for themselves or anyone else. So, all the arguments that float around regarding what causes homosexuality, and can it be fixed, and yada yada yada may be of some interest in an anthropological way, or in psychology journals, and to social engineering advocates, lobbyists, and the politically homosexual faction of society who are rather convinced that homosexual acts are a cause for celebration rather than a cross to bear on our individual roads to Calvary to join our sufferings with those of the Lord.

The fact is, and will remain, that whatever the motivation behind it, the compulsion to commit sexual acts outside of a marriage between one man and one woman are to be fought with prayer, alms and fasting. All persons whether their “feelings” are of a same or opposite sex bent, are still only supposed to engage in sexual acts with their opposite sex spouse in a one woman/one man marriage, or else they are to live a life of chastity. That’s it. There aren’t any other options.

Those who are truly, and integrally pre-disposed absolutely to same sex attraction, and lack all faculty, understanding, and desire to even attempt to seek heterosexual marriage, because of either their birth wiring, their environment and psychology, or all of the above, have a very special calling from God, that is made more difficult than that of a heterosexually inclined individual because of the fact that it is not likely that they will ever be able to licitly marry a person of the opposite sex, and therefore experience licit sexual union. The Church understands this, and even points out the difficult road that these individuals are on. Those who are not giving in to social engineering, and buying into civil law over God’s law, and truly carrying and bearing their cross, and doing all they can to stay chaste, as they are called to be by our Lord, I have more respect for than virtually anybody else struggling with their difficulties in this decidedly difficult life.

The world hates purity. The world doesn’t want you to be pure. The world will even change laws, and governments, and all else it can do to accommodate sinful action without guilt. But a person who accepts God, and trusts that His law and teachings are true, is both hefting a heavy cross, and also earning a special place in heaven.

An Ave’ for all our brothers and sisters in Christ struggling with same sex attraction, and the temptation to give up their chastity, and give into the world. May the Lord lift you up, strengthen you, and carry you in His arms.

Ave Maria,
gratia plena
Dominus tecum
Benedicta to in mulieribus
et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesu

Sancta Maria
Mater Dei
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc,
et in hora mortis nostrae
Amen

 

[Leegal]

As long as they live within the Church teachings, they are not doing anything wrong, nor are they disordered – the disorder is in the sin. Are we not all called to chastity before taking the sacrament of marriage?

In fact, the etiology of SSA is unknown. While there may or may not be a gay gene, there may be hormonal changes that occur during gestation. They simply do not know.

And for those who believe there is a “cure”, those who have changed and maybe are living a life as a hetero – well, it’s really too soon to tell how effective this therapy or if it causes other harm and damage to the person. If we heard directly from those who underwent therapy and did change, I would rather hear whether they found a way of managing or hiding or being accepted – or if the SSA was completely turned around by this therapy – what do they really feel after therapy? Success can only be measured over time as to whether they have changed, or even if change is possible. And we simply do not know.

I see it this way. I am hetero. No amount of therapy will ever change me into someone with SSA. Sexual orientation is said to be immutable, so I question any claims of there being a therapy that can change an orientation.

Everyone is made in the image and likeness of God. We only know that some are attracted to their same sex – not why or how this occurs. We know that we are all called to chastity before marriage with one partner of the opposite sex. So, the question is not whether a homosexual can change through therapy, because we simply do not know whether there is success or not or even if such therapy has any meaningful thing to offer. The Church requires chastity of all unmarrieds.

And this is why the pastoral letter on homosexuality is in my signature. The Vatican has a position – and therapy is not forced on homosexuals because the Church knows that the issue is too complex for them to render any teaching, other than we are to treat them no differently because of their orientation. The orientation is not intrinsincally sinful unless acted upon.

 

[michelleds]

As long as they live within the Church teachings, they are not doing anything wrong, nor are they disordered – the disorder is in the sin.

Because I know you to be careful with language, I want to point out that the document from your signature says

In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good. Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.

 

[Leegal]

Because I know you to be careful with language, I want to point out that the document from your signature says

“In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good. Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and **thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” **

Yes, but the difference would be that an intrinsic sin is sin in and of itself. The objective disorder is defined as when it’s intended toward a purpose or directed to sin, which means to seek out a SS partner or to lust or seek SS porn. The difference is that a chaste homosexual who will never be hetero can remain without sin and guilt of his orientation. When he pursues an objective-- to have relations – it is disordered. The Church is qualifying it with that “strong tendency.” But we all have that strong tendency at times.

Realizing that SSA attraction often seeks an objective (to have relations), the Church is cautionary knowing that it can lead to action, which is why they use “objectively disordered” - when it seeks out it’s purpose. The Church admits that the etiology is too complex or even unknown. So, while thinking of male/male and female/female may not be natural, we still don’t know the cause. If God made everyone in his image, I have to take it that God knows and will judge accordingly whether this was nature or choice. The Church is not ready to say it’s choice to be oriented one way or another. I know I did not make a “choice” to be hetero – but I knew I was and am.

The urge for sex is not instrinsically sinful, it’s nature, however it can be objectively sinful if we seek to lust and/or leads to masturbation or have extra-marital relations and pre-marital relations, which then leads to the instrinsic sin. If we fight the urge, we are not disordered in that we had the urge – we are disordered when we seek to sinfully satisfy that natural urge.

I think the idea of a “cure” for homosexuality causes more harm. What if the person undertakes a cure and still is SS oriented? Is he a failure? Or is the therapy false? Or is it that there is no “cure” for orientation?

 

[speakttruth]

As long as they live within the Church teachings, they are not doing anything wrong, nor are they disordered – the disorder is in the sin. Are we not all called to chastity before taking the sacrament of marriage?

In fact, the etiology of SSA is unknown. While there may or may not be a gay gene, there may be hormonal changes that occur during gestation. They simply do not know.

And for those who believe there is a “cure”, those who have changed and maybe are living a life as a hetero – well, it’s really too soon to tell how effective this therapy or if it causes other harm and damage to the person. If we heard directly from those who underwent therapy and did change, I would rather hear whether they found a way of managing or hiding or being accepted – or if the SSA was completely turned around by this therapy – what do they really feel after therapy? Success can only be measured over time as to whether they have changed, or even if change is possible. And we simply do not know.

I see it this way. I am hetero. No amount of therapy will ever change me into someone with SSA. Sexual orientation is said to be immutable, so I question any claims of there being a therapy that can change an orientation.

Everyone is made in the image and likeness of God. We only know that some are attracted to their same sex – not why or how this occurs. We know that we are all called to chastity before marriage with one partner of the opposite sex. So, the question is not whether a homosexual can change through therapy, because we simply do not know whether there is success or not or even if such therapy has any meaningful thing to offer. The Church requires chastity of all unmarrieds.

And this is why the pastoral letter on homosexuality is in my signature. The Vatican has a position – and therapy is not forced on homosexuals because the Church knows that the issue is too complex for them to render any teaching, other than we are to treat them no differently because of their orientation. The orientation is not intrinsincally sinful unless acted upon.

Thank you for that information. God bless

 

[speakttruth]

She is a mother who has greatly been wounded by her son running away after telling her he was gay.
It’s highly probably that there are genetic factors that can up the chance, but the chance there are genes that guarantee it is effectively nil.

The soul is made by God directly, the human body wasn’t. The human body is affect by concupiscence and since the person is both body and soul

Again, she’s been severely hurt, trying to convince her that odds are her child can’t be “normal” is like trying to convince a five year old Santa doesn’t exist, likely to work and if it does you probably just won jerk of the year

Getting married and having kids means nothing, it was frequently used as a cover which is known as “growing a beard”

Thank you Dakota I appreciate your prayers and support and you know that I do the same for you. God Bless

 

[speakttruth]

The reasons why various men and women engage in homosexual acts, (which are sinful), are varied and the seeds which lead the person into performing these acts can vary all the way from pure genetic disposition to complete social conditioning and engineering. To my knowledge no single cause of homosexual behaviors has been proven in research. So I guess as a direct answer to your question, (and assuming that you what you actually mean is: "can a person who experiences strong or exclusive same sex attraction ever experience opposite sex attraction, either simultaneously or exclusively?) When phrased this way, then, probably, in most cases the answer would be yes. It’s not really the problem though. At least regarding the Catholic Church. The Catholic understanding of the sinful nature of homosexual acts would not, can not, and will not change regardless of any finding whatsoever concerning the reasons why some individuals commit sexual acts with members of the same sex.

It is known that to take action on same sex attraction is mortal sin. That is known. If it happens, and is unrepented, it can separate one from God, and can lead to an eternal separation from God. No Christian wants this for themselves or anyone else. So, all the arguments that float around regarding what causes homosexuality, and can it be fixed, and yada yada yada may be of some interest in an anthropological way, or in psychology journals, and to social engineering advocates, lobbyists, and the politically homosexual faction of society who are rather convinced that homosexual acts are a cause for celebration rather than a cross to bear on our individual roads to Calvary to join our sufferings with those of the Lord.

The fact is, and will remain, that whatever the motivation behind it, the compulsion to commit sexual acts outside of a marriage between one man and one woman are to be fought with prayer, alms and fasting. All persons whether their “feelings” are of a same or opposite sex bent, are still only supposed to engage in sexual acts with their opposite sex spouse in a one woman/one man marriage, or else they are to live a life of chastity. That’s it. There aren’t any other options.

Those who are truly, and integrally pre-disposed absolutely to same sex attraction, and lack all faculty, understanding, and desire to even attempt to seek heterosexual marriage, because of either their birth wiring, their environment and psychology, or all of the above, have a very special calling from God, that is made more difficult than that of a heterosexually inclined individual because of the fact that it is not likely that they will ever be able to licitly marry a person of the opposite sex, and therefore experience licit sexual union. The Church understands this, and even points out the difficult road that these individuals are on. Those who are not giving in to social engineering, and buying into civil law over God’s law, and truly carrying and bearing their cross, and doing all they can to stay chaste, as they are called to be by our Lord, I have more respect for than virtually anybody else struggling with their difficulties in this decidedly difficult life.

The world hates purity. The world doesn’t want you to be pure. The world will even change laws, and governments, and all else it can do to accommodate sinful action without guilt. But a person who accepts God, and trusts that His law and teachings are true, is both hefting a heavy cross, and also earning a special place in heaven.

An Ave’ for all our brothers and sisters in Christ struggling with same sex attraction, and the temptation to give up their chastity, and give into the world. May the Lord lift you up, strengthen you, and carry you in His arms.

Ave Maria,
gratia plena
Dominus tecum
Benedicta to in mulieribus
et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesu

Sancta Maria
Mater Dei
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc,
et in hora mortis nostrae
Amen

So well put, Amen
God bless

 

[michelleds]

Yes, but the difference would be that an intrinsic sin is sin in and of itself. The objective disorder is defined as when it’s intended toward a purpose or directed to sin, which means to seek out a SS partner or to lust or seek SS porn. The difference is that a chaste homosexual who will never be hetero can remain without sin and guilt of his orientation. When he pursues an objective-- to have relations – it is disordered. The Church is qualifying it with that “strong tendency.” But we all have that strong tendency at times.

Realizing that SSA attraction often seeks an objective (to have relations), the Church is cautionary knowing that it can lead to action, which is why they use “objectively disordered” - when it seeks out it’s purpose. The Church admits that the etiology is too complex or even unknown. So, while thinking of male/male and female/female may not be natural, we still don’t know the cause. If God made everyone in his image, I have to take it that God knows and will judge accordingly whether this was nature or choice. The Church is not ready to say it’s choice to be oriented one way or another. I know I did not make a “choice” to be hetero – but I knew I was and am.

The urge for sex is not instrinsically sinful, it’s nature, however it can be objectively sinful if we seek to lust and/or leads to masturbation or have extra-marital relations and pre-marital relations, which then leads to the instrinsic sin. If we fight the urge, we are not disordered in that we had the urge – we are disordered when we seek to sinfully satisfy that natural urge.

I think the idea of a “cure” for homosexuality causes more harm. What if the person undertakes a cure and still is SS oriented? Is he a failure? Or is the therapy false? Or is it that there is no “cure” for orientation?

Thank you, I appreciate what you’ve written above. very good.

as to the last paragraph, I certainly am not in favor of anyone being forced to “take a cure” or “try a cure” or “seek a cure”. In fact, I am adamant that any “cure” comes from God’s Grace, not from man.

 

[tskrobacz]

What are your thoughts?

Yes, I’ve seen it occur. A friends daughter was a practicing lesbian for years. She is now a happily married woman (to a man).

 

[speakttruth]

I’m not sure if your heart is just filled with hate or if you’re a closeted homosexual. You seem to be trying to simplify reasons for SSA/homosexuality. The reality is there is no simple answers and there is scientific evidence that suggests homosexuality is genetic. If that is found to be true, then I believe you are saying God has created something imperfect. I don’t know what the right answer is, nor do I ignorantly pretend to “know” things that I have no knowledge of; what I do know is that the teaching of the church are to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Your hate is offensive and I for one am not God and will not pass judgment on these people nor will I make any suggestion to any of them but to live a good Catholic life and pray for the answers they seek. “Emasculated Men, Feminists putting them down”, you should pray for guidance, understanding, empathy because there sounds to be quite a bit of hate in your message against gays, women and the men who love them. Put yourself in their shoes for a day, see if you can force yourself to have SSA, if you’re repulsed by the exercise, you can only imagine how you’re making these people feel.

Just for information Fr. Barron has a CD about how the feminist have destroyed the Church,
He is on Ewtn. I don’t believe he is hateful. I look for information that educates me on why and how we got here in our church and in our world as well as with SSA. I do not hate anyone sir and I am called to charity as you are and I see no charity in your statements. I am hateful toward the sin of homosexuality and the behavior of the people pushing the sin because of the effects of brainwashing on confused or innocent children… Justifiably. Nothing is simple in life, my son had brain cancer at five and came out at first as a bisexual 2 yrs after college. You have no idea how much I supported my son and how much I love him. I have no guilt because I did everything for him. Am I perfect no, do I make mistakes yes. You sir shouldn’t be judging people without all the knowledge of that person’s life. I couldn’t write all that has happened in my life. Your comments are filled with anger and unforgiveness and I don’t think I deserve those statements when I am trying to be helpful and informative. We can disagree to disagree, but to suggest that I am a homosexual is not very charitable.
From your other post, you are filled with guilt as well. Please do not take that out on me. I never pushed my son into reparative therapy, regular therapy he needs and he sought out one for himself. He knows how much we love him and he knows that we will not accept that lifestyle. He isn’t the typical homosexual who is going around having all sorts of partners. Even in that life he is misunderstood. What I keep reminding him when the right time arises, that God will help him and loves him. I want him to be chaste because I know the dangers of that life. I have already accepted that he won’t have a life with a women and children and do not pressure him to be straight. God is in control, not me. Fortunately he has a brother who is married and I have a 2 year old grandson and one on the way. God has been good to me and blessed me. Some poor mothers with only one child with SSA my heart breaks for. I have a good friend with only one child a son. With this trauma in my life I had a conversion and soon after my husband did four years ago and I know that God allows things to happen for a reason and he makes the good come out of bad. I am trying to be a faithful Catholic, I go to church daily, confession regularly, volunteer, and try with the grace of god to live up to his commandments. I look at it this way, if God can bring me back, he can do it for anyone. You don’t know anything about me. I was a sinner and still am, but he has freed me and made me into a new creation. I am far from perfect, but I am striving and struggling just like the rest of you.

There seemed to be a lot more going on with your friend that died than you realize that I can see just from your story. Pray for his mother, you have no idea what it feels like to be one. She is going through guilt and pain and suffering, she lost a husband and a son. Even though he was your friend, it cannot compare to her losing a husband and a child. Put yourself in her shoes for a moment and maybe you should think about how you can help her.
I will pray for you and the souls of your friends family
God bless

 

[MarkAndrew]

There is no “gay gene”. The human genome project did not find a gay gene; if one had been found, it would have been the lead story for months.

The Church does not require that someone with SSA get married and have kids. The Church requires Chastity of everyone, including persons with SSA. We are all called to holiness. We should pursue the virtues and avoid the vices and near occasions of sin.

It is not relevant what you believe in your heart about whether someone can change. Whether someone changes is up to that person and God’s Grace. Period.

And before you go off and put your foot in it, there are people participating on CAF and even in this thread who have or had SSA and are living Catholic lives in full compliance with Catholic Church teachings.

Yes, and that was exactly my point but I think you were unable to get past the “Gay Gene” issues. There are different avenues for people who are finding it difficult to change. And what I believe in my heart is relevant to me and my relationship with God. You voicing your opinion is essentially what you believe. I believe you, like so many others, try to simplify this issue too much; there are many genetic, biological, developmental issues etc., that cause SSA. I don’t think it’s some simple issue and therefore we need to be more compassionate to our brothers and sisters instead of jumping to pass judgement; last I understood only One will judge us and that’s not you. God didn’t make these people imperfect and didn’t make them for us to marginalize. Gay or not, they can, and many do, live great Catholic lives in accordance with our teachings.

 

[MarkAndrew]

And I contend we should not speak in absolutes and thus pigeon hole people who could possibly be helped.

Why are we speaking in absolutes when we speak of people with SSA? Why do we assume every last one cannot be helped just because some couldn’t be?

I don’t think human beings can be pigeon holed like that. Some can be helped, some can’t. Bottom line. It will depend on the person and it will depend on the circumstances.

All of God’s children can be helped! If that includes conversion that’s great, if it doesn’t than we pray and help them live good Catholic lives. It does indeed depend on each individual, and you’re right I shouldn’t be talking in absolutes, my point is just that we need to understand some cannot be changed and for those we must show compassion, love, prayer and guidance. This is the message of the church, some people seem to forget it sometimes in exchange for hatred, anger, and violence against people with SSA. (Gays)

 

[MarkAndrew]

As long as they live within the Church teachings, they are not doing anything wrong, nor are they disordered – the disorder is in the sin. Are we not all called to chastity before taking the sacrament of marriage?

In fact, the etiology of SSA is unknown. While there may or may not be a gay gene, there may be hormonal changes that occur during gestation. They simply do not know.

And for those who believe there is a “cure”, those who have changed and maybe are living a life as a hetero – well, it’s really too soon to tell how effective this therapy or if it causes other harm and damage to the person. If we heard directly from those who underwent therapy and did change, I would rather hear whether they found a way of managing or hiding or being accepted – or if the SSA was completely turned around by this therapy – what do they really feel after therapy? Success can only be measured over time as to whether they have changed, or even if change is possible. And we simply do not know.

I see it this way. I am hetero. No amount of therapy will ever change me into someone with SSA. Sexual orientation is said to be immutable, so I question any claims of there being a therapy that can change an orientation.

Everyone is made in the image and likeness of God. We only know that some are attracted to their same sex – not why or how this occurs. We know that we are all called to chastity before marriage with one partner of the opposite sex. So, the question is not whether a homosexual can change through therapy, because we simply do not know whether there is success or not or even if such therapy has any meaningful thing to offer. The Church requires chastity of all unmarrieds.

And this is why the pastoral letter on homosexuality is in my signature. The Vatican has a position – and therapy is not forced on homosexuals because the Church knows that the issue is too complex for them to render any teaching, other than we are to treat them no differently because of their orientation. The orientation is not intrinsincally sinful unless acted upon.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Yes, and that was exactly my point but I think you were unable to get past the “Gay Gene” issues. There are different avenues for people who are finding it difficult to change. And what I believe in my heart is relevant to me and my relationship with God. You voicing your opinion is essentially what you believe. I believe you, like so many others, try to simplify this issue too much; there are many genetic, biological, developmental issues etc., that cause SSA. I don’t think it’s some simple issue and therefore we need to be more compassionate to our brothers and sisters instead of jumping to pass judgement; last I understood only One will judge us and that’s not you. God didn’t make these people imperfect and didn’t make them for us to marginalize. Gay or not, they can, and many do, live great Catholic lives in accordance with our teachings.

It would be so much simpler if we could go back to the time when it was understood as acts that were simply not done in love.

Our souls are made by God perfectly, but our bodies are not and thus affected by concupiscence. since we are both carnal and spiritual we are affected by concupiscence which can manifest itself in ways ranging from mundane to egregiously insane.

 

[Leegal]

It would be so much simpler if we could go back to the time when it was understood as acts that were simply not done in love.

Our souls are made by God perfectly, but our bodies are not and thus affected by concupiscence. since we are both carnal and spiritual we are affected by concupiscence which can manifest itself in ways ranging from mundane to egregiously insane.

Would that be “choice?” I contend that there are other factors at work that create and allow for SSA to occur – and neither science nor biology has yet come up with an answer as to how sexual orientation is formed - only many theories, and I only give one theory.

God made perfect souls, but of course because of “original sin” our bodies are not perfect. If the etiology is caused by hormonal changes during pregnancy, and the baby grows up to feel SSA, then something happened with nature – just as unfortunately children are born with other differences when something during gestation does not go as planned – and some of which are not correctable.

While I may agree that people, in their sinful lives, choose to sin and experiment with forbidden things, I don’t believe that homosexuals “choose” their orientation. There’s a difference between being homosexual and those who choose promisuous experimentation. I think we are speaking of those who truly identify as homosexual. I am.

 

[chepner3]

THANK YOU, Steven for a balanced and calmly considered post:

To my knowledge no single cause of homosexual behaviors has been proven in research. … It’s not really the problem though. At least regarding the Catholic Church. … The fact is, and will remain, that whatever the motivation behind it, the compulsion to commit sexual acts outside of a marriage between one man and one woman are to be fought with prayer, alms and fasting. All persons whether their “feelings” are of a same or opposite sex bent, are still only supposed to engage in sexual acts with their opposite sex spouse in a one woman/one man marriage, or else they are to live a life of chastity. … Those who are truly, and integrally predisposed absolutely to same sex attraction … have a very special calling from God, that is made more difficult than that of a heterosexually inclined individual because of the fact that it is not likely that they will ever be able to licitly marry a person of the opposite sex, and therefore experience licit sexual union. The Church understands this, and even points out the difficult road that these individuals are on. Those who are not giving in to social engineering, and buying into civil law over God’s law, and truly carrying and bearing their cross, and doing all they can to stay chaste, as they are called to be by our Lord, I have more respect for than virtually anybody else struggling with their difficulties in this decidedly difficult life."

Because you’re right. For a homosexual person to remain a faithful Catholic they must remain chaste or commit to a heterosexual marriage. Everyone admits that such a marriage would be “one of convenience”. To be fair, the spouse would be told of the homosexual person’s orientation and both would enter into the union fully informed. They would agree to be married - faithfully and lovingly to each other - in order to remain Catholic, be productive in society and, hopefully, produce children. Let’s not pretend that such marriages do not exist. Does such marriages prevent either spouse from being truly happy? Perhaps. It is up to each spouse to make that compromise for themselves.

My point has been - and remains - that there is a separation between what the Catholic Church must preach and what the givernment is Constitutionally bound to do. I hope there will one day be a revelation in the Catholic Church that homosexual marriage can be sanctified, just like I hope one day there will be female priests. I don’t project that will happen anytime in MY lifetime, of course, but I’m patient.

I completely understand all the arguments against homosexual marriage (abortion, birth control, the death penalty, yada, yada, yada) based on the immorality of the act. I get it, I really do. All I’m advocating is the givernment has to operate not on what is moral, but on what is RIGHT. The two aren’t always the same. Now THAT is a topic for another thread.

In today’s society it is RIGHT to protect homosexual couples the same way heterosexual couples are protected. The commitment they make to preserve the union (i.e.: one spouse giving up their career based on the commitment to the marriage then getting fair recognition of that sacrifice should there be a divorce), the legal recognition of their relationship (rights to inheritance, making medical decisions, etc), and the protection of the children they are raising together benefits society. This is the only reason why the givernment is involved in creating laws that recognize the special status of personhood known as “married”. You can call it “civil union” all you want, but it doesn’t change the purpose of having the relationship protected in society.