Can a man and a woman "just be friends?"

[Moore11]

I seriously doubt this is the case. How exactly are we defining attraction here? Because there are men in this world who simply disgust me, and while I may feel some kind of love for them on account of their humanity, I am definitely not attracted to them.

So you are saying that if the human race was down to you and any guy, it would die out. That chemically and emotionally you could not willingly engage in unitive, procreative sex with another. The Bible does not follow your vanity. Lot’s daughters slept with him, Adam and Eve’s bros and sisters made children… etc. The fact is that for the good of the race and if you are someone who wants to do what God commands then if you and any male were the last 2 people on earth, literally I’m sure you would procreate. So the point then becomes that in certain circumstances you would sleep with different people, the ease at which you would do so is dependent on how dire the circumstances are. Some might sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars, others might sleep with a bum if a knife was held to a child’s throat…
But ultimately every male you see is a potential mate in certain circumstances.

(I have no idea if any of this holds water, but it logically makes sense.)

 

[Kamaduck]

So you are saying that if the human race was down to you and any guy, it would die out. That chemically and emotionally you could not willingly engage in unitive, procreative sex with another. The Bible does not follow your vanity. Lot’s daughters slept with him, Adam and Eve’s bros and sisters made children… etc. The fact is that for the good of the race and if you are someone who wants to do what God commands then if you and any male were the last 2 people on earth, literally I’m sure you would procreate. So the point then becomes that in certain circumstances you would sleep with different people, the ease at which you would do so is dependent on how dire the circumstances are. Some might sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars, others might sleep with a bum if a knife was held to a child’s throat…
But ultimately every male you see is a potential mate in certain circumstances.

(I have no idea if any of this holds water, but it logically makes sense.)

The human race would be doomed anyway, due to the amount of inbreeding required to make another population. God certainly doesn’t command people to sleep with each other outside of marriage, even under the circumstances you describe. It is not “vanity” to say that God does not command everyone to procreate. Or do you think that all preists are disobeying God?

The existence of rape does not mean that females are attracted to every man they meet. This conversation is becoming more disgusting with every post.

 

[Moore11]

The human race would be doomed anyway, due to the amount of inbreeding required to make another population. God certainly doesn’t command people to sleep with each other outside of marriage, even under the circumstances you describe. It is not “vanity” to say that God does not command everyone to procreate. Or do you think that all preists are disobeying God?

The existence of rape does not mean that females are attracted to every man they meet. This conversation is becoming more disgusting with every post.

??? So you do not believe that we have common ancestors and that we came from 1 set of ancient parents? Not only that but you deny that in certain times of history biblical or otherwise that “inbreeding” was necessary for the extension of cultures, tribes, nations and the human race?

The celibacy point is a red herring. It has nothing to do with procreation.

 

[Kamaduck]

??? So you do not believe that we have common ancestors and that we came from 1 set of ancient parents? Not only that but you deny that in certain times of history biblical or otherwise that “inbreeding” was necessary for the extension of cultures, tribes, nations and the human race?

The celibacy point is a red herring. It has nothing to do with procreation.

Oh, it’s definitely happened in the past. But I generally believe that the founders of such populations were not carriers of fatal genetic diseases, as many people today are. Today, that amount of inbreeding wouldn’t go very well at all.

How does celibacy have nothing to do with the fact that not everybody procreates and God is totally OK with that?

 

[Moore11]

Oh, it’s definitely happened in the past. But I generally believe that the founders of such populations were not carriers of fatal genetic diseases, as many people today are. Today, that amount of inbreeding wouldn’t go very well at all.

How does celibacy have nothing to do with the fact that not everybody procreates and God is totally OK with that?

1. You think incest in the past was more genetically pure than it would be now and for that reason all human nature is changed? Do you have any science to back that up? I have an extensive background in genetic sciences, mostly plants, but you would be surprised how the scientific principles cross over to humans. I would be very interested in the science of your claim. It would be completely contrary to other genetic scientific works.
2. A celibate priesthood is a practice of the faith. It has not always been so. It may be that way forever. But in present circumstances and for most of history certain people have had the vocation to be celibate and not procreate. Do you think the Church would or could not change that practice if the only man (I guess he would be the Pope by default) and woman left were a nun and a priest?

 

[Moore11]

Oh, it’s definitely happened in the past. But I generally believe that the founders of such populations were not carriers of fatal genetic diseases, as many people today are. Today, that amount of inbreeding wouldn’t go very well at all.:

I want to address this as well. This makes absolutely no anthropological sense. Incest in the past to continue a race, tribe or nation was done with a very much more narrow set of genetic components. Making the rate of deformity higher than now where you have a broader genetic makeup of a multicultural society. For instance I am italian, irish, dutch, british, native american spanish, african, etc. My genetic makeup has more diversity than if I lived 4000 years ago in the Nile valley. Therefor the genetic problems of incest or inbreeding are fewer today than in the past.

 

[Kamaduck]

1. You think incest in the past was more genetically pure than it would be now and for that reason all human nature is changed? Do you have any science to back that up? I have an extensive background in genetic sciences, mostly plants, but you would be surprised how the scientific principles cross over to humans. I would be very interested in the science of your claim. It would be completely contrary to other genetic scientific works.
2. A celibate priesthood is a practice of the faith. It has not always been so. It may be that way forever. But in present circumstances and for most of history certain people have had the vocation to be celibate and not procreate. Do you think the Church would or could not change that practice if the only man (I guess he would be the Pope by default) and woman left were a nun and a priest?

No, I don’t have science to back me up. I simply have no idea why God would create Adam and Eve with faulty genes to begin with, and generally assume that most genetic disorders are the result of mutations that have occured since then.

And no, I cannot be totally sure that my nature would not drastically change if I were the last woman in the world. But you are asking me to believe that no matter who the last person in the world is, I would definitely attempt to procreate for the good of the species. That goes against everything I know of myself, and I definitely think I would have the option to refuse.

This is because I believe that people (in most circumstances) are able to choose whether or not to have sex with each other.

Also, dang, the idea that the last man on earth becomes pope by default and therefore can basically do whatever he wants is beyond creepy.

 

[Moore11]

Also, dang, the idea that the last man on earth becomes pope by default and therefore can basically do whatever he wants is beyond creepy.

Yeah, I agree and I have no way to back that up theologically or logically.
But just to correct you, the pope cannot just “Do whatever he wants” Ever. That is a misunderstanding of the papacy.

 

[Moore11]

And no, I cannot be totally sure that my nature would not drastically change if I were the last woman in the world. But you are asking me to believe that no matter who the last person in the world is, I would definitely attempt to procreate for the good of the species. That goes against everything I know of myself, and I definitely think I would have the option to refuse.
:

Of course! You would have free will. Mary also had free will. So did Eve. So did anyone ever. But to be fair in this fantastical situation you really have no idea what you would do. But my basic point is that in different circumstances we have different standards. So technically each male you stand next to is a potential mate given the right circumstances. The circumstances might not have to be so dire for it to be George Clooney, than they would have to be if it were a disgusting four nosed, genetic mutation. That is a given.
But to deny potential procreation is to deny biology and your identity sexually.

 

[PetiteFoi]

Blind Post:

I have issues with having single male friends, or my husband having single female friends.
Neither of us had any close friends of the opposite sex before we got married, (well, that’s not quite true, I had two male friends I was close to, but they were gay…)

So now that we’re married, I don’t think its wise to make close friends of the opposite sex - you can get emotionally involved so easily.
But of course, that’s just my opinion.

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

 

[DarkLight]

Blind Post:

I have issues with having single male friends, or my husband having single female friends.
Neither of us had any close friends of the opposite sex before we got married, (well, that’s not quite true, I had two male friends I was close to, but they were gay…)

So now that we’re married, I don’t think its wise to make close friends of the opposite sex - you can get emotionally involved so easily.
But of course, that’s just my opinion.

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

I wonder if this might not be part of the perspective difference. I’ve had close male friends pretty much all my life. The vast majority of the relationships have been entirely platonic, and even the few that did not stay that way didn’t lead to any serious problems. I can’t imagine a life with only female close friends! It’s very odd to me to consider someone only having close friends of one sex, and a partner who couldn’t handle me having male friends simply would be a deal-breaker. In fact I’d be quite hurt that someone would even suggest it - I’d be insulted at the idea that I couldn’t be trusted to not cheat!

 

[Litcrit]

I wonder if this might not be part of the perspective difference. I’ve had close male friends pretty much all my life. The vast majority of the relationships have been entirely platonic, and even the few that did not stay that way didn’t lead to any serious problems. I can’t imagine a life with only female close friends! It’s very odd to me to consider someone only having close friends of one sex, and a partner who couldn’t handle me having male friends simply would be a deal-breaker. In fact I’d be quite hurt that someone would even suggest it - I’d be insulted at the idea that I couldn’t be trusted to not cheat!

Me too.

 

[PetiteFoi]

I wonder if this might not be part of the perspective difference. I’ve had close male friends pretty much all my life. The vast majority of the relationships have been entirely platonic, and even the few that did not stay that way didn’t lead to any serious problems. I can’t imagine a life with only female close friends! It’s very odd to me to consider someone only having close friends of one sex, and a partner who couldn’t handle me having male friends simply would be a deal-breaker. In fact I’d be quite hurt that someone would even suggest it - I’d be insulted at the idea that I couldn’t be trusted to not cheat!

It’s not about being trusted not to cheat - I trust my husband 150%, he just has an extremely loyal personality.
I know its cliche, but just because I trust my husband, doesn’t mean I’m automatically going to trust his single, female friends.
And if I don’t know them well, how do I know they’re also a “friend to my marriage”??

When you have a good, close friend you tend to confide in them - tell them your secrets, ask for advice, etc.
You put yourself into an emotionally vulnerable state, and that’s not a bad thing! That’s what friends are for, and why we need them!

But let’s say I’m having relationship issues with my husband - I want a “male perspective” so I confide in my close, single, male friend.
He obviously likes me and enjoys my company or he wouldn’t be my friend, we start talking and sharing personal issues; then suddenly I’m getting emotional male validation and attention from a man that isn’t my husband.
Most people take flirting as a compliment - I mean, it’s nice to feel like you’re desirable, and if you put yourself into a situation where you’re close emotionally, and are together privately and confiding in someone who obviously enjoys your company, is single and of the opposite sex - I can easily see it being a trap too easy to fall into.

Of course it doesn’t mean that every friend you have of the opposite sex is out to bed you - but why put yourself in that position in the first place?

My husband and I decided to wait until marriage to have sex - to do that we had to specifically avoid putting ourselves in situations where it’d be “too easy” to trip up.
That’s not saying we cannot control ourselves, or have no free-will - it’s just being wise.

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

 

[Baelor]

Well on a basic human level. yes you are attracted to every male you know.

Is that really true? There are some women to whom I am definitely not attracted…

God made us to procreate, he commanded it. So if you were the last 2 people on earth, the chemistry, the biology and the faith would dictate that you would follow God’s command… or else the Human creation would die.

I am not sure that this hypothetical is even really possible… There is also a difference between attraction and sexual capability.

So you are saying that if the human race was down to you and any guy, it would die out. That chemically and emotionally you could not willingly engage in unitive, procreative sex with another.

You do not need to be attracted to someone to have sex with them.

 

[Baelor]

Of course it doesn’t mean that every friend you have of the opposite sex is out to bed you - but why put yourself in that position in the first place?

Because you value his friendship and it is not a source of temptation.

The fact that some people are alcoholics does not mean that I need to abstain completely from alcohol.

You are, of course, able to do whatever you want in this regard for the sake of your marriage.

 

[manualman]

So now that we’re married, I don’t think its wise to make close friends of the opposite sex - you can get emotionally involved so easily.
…

You mentioned posting blind, but IMO the major disconnect this thread has is vocabulary based. Some seem to use the Facebook definition of friend (i.e. somebody I’d recognize if I bumped into them) and others use a much more intimate definition (discuss your anxieties and weaknesses with).

But I’m with you anyways. If you ever see me at a restaurant table for two with a woman, she’s either my wife or a close relative. Don’t let anybody tell you you’re a prude.

 

[Frank_Drebin]

Can they? I don’t know. I have my doubts, as a guy. Most affairs don;t always start as intentional. They begin as casual relationships. Even without the threat of affair, it just isn;t something I would do.

My wife and I do not. I don’t travel in cars alone with a female coworker, nor would I go to lunch with one, and we never talk outside of work. My wife is at home with our daughter, and it seems to me to be an unnecessary thing for her to hear or think about, even if I have never given her reason to suspect cheating. By necessity, she is very isolated from my world in my line work of work, and I just don’t want her to have any extra mental burdens, even unwarranted.

My wife has no male friends either. A few remote ones that may catch up once every few years, but nothing of note. Life barely leaves us the time we need for one another. I can’t justify spending that time with other women when we have so little quality time with one another. I tend to treat male friends in a similar way. I haven’t played golf in years, simply because I feel like my wife gets up with our daughter every day, and runs our house. I just feel uncomfortable saying "I know you’ve been working hard all week, but can you handle saturday too? " Plus, i miss seeing my daughter, and love the few mornings we have together.

Again, just how we do it.

 

[Frank_Drebin]

It’s not just men who have that problem. I’ve seen that problem happen with women as well!

Without statistics, I’d guess there are a large cunk of people having affairs who are women. You can see women give you looks or comment, as a man. I steer clear for their sake and mine.

Speaking anecdotally, most men I have known tend to at least find the females they engage with secually attractive. And I have known a lot of men. College honors students, fraternity guys, my enginnering classmates (the opposite of my fratnerity borthers in most ways), buddies from my time in the military, coworkers and married men. That is how they are.

Unfortunately, we can’t look at through the Catholic prism of nobility, because look around - society is not Catholic Answers. Read a public message baord some time. Peruse facebook. Look at statistics on infidelity and porn use. We are talking vast majorities of men in the latter case. The majority of society (IMO) is represented in many ways there, not here.

Experience has taught me not to trust the situation, and so I don’t. Again, that’s just me.

 

[Moore11]

Is that really true? There are some women to whom I am definitely not attracted…

I am not sure that this hypothetical is even really possible… There is also a difference between attraction and sexual capability.

You do not need to be attracted to someone to have sex with them.

Yeah, who knows. And we are talking about a fantastical situation that would never exist. Nor do I care enough about the topic to defend to the death my statements. So take them FWIW. But it did start me thinking about genetic purity and defects when it was brought up about the past. That is a whole other thread.

 

[Crescentinus]

Without statistics, I’d guess there are a large cunk of people having affairs who are women. You can see women give you looks or comment, as a man. I steer clear for their sake and mine.

Speaking anecdotally, most men I have known tend to at least find the females they engage with secually attractive. And I have known a lot of men. College honors students, fraternity guys, my enginnering classmates (the opposite of my fratnerity borthers in most ways), buddies from my time in the military, coworkers and married men. That is how they are.

Unfortunately, we can’t look at through the Catholic prism of nobility, because look around - society is not Catholic Answers. Read a public message baord some time. Peruse facebook. Look at statistics on infidelity and porn use. We are talking vast majorities of men in the latter case. The majority of society (IMO) is represented in many ways there, not here.

Experience has taught me not to trust the situation, and so I don’t. Again, that’s just me.

I’ve been in other social media sites, hence me speaking of it.