Can a moral case be made in defense of school bullying?

[HomeschoolDad]

I realize that nowadays, schools go to great lengths to implement zero-tolerance policies on bullying, and that is probably as it should be. Nobody should have to go to school (or to work, or any other venue for that matter) and have to contend with being shamed, harassed, or made to feel “less than” either by individuals with strong personalities, or by cabals of bullies or “mean girls”. In fact, if I were headmaster of a school, one of my first announcements would be “there will be no cliques — we are all here unto a single purpose, and your “clique” is the entire student body, you will all build each other up, every single one of you, and remember what we are all here for”. My son’s former school assigned seating both for classrooms and for lunch tables, and it worked beautifully.

However, as the saying goes, I would give the devil himself justice. Has anyone ever spoken up on behalf of the bullies, or been willing to say “yes, I was a bully in school, and that was a good thing because…”? Some “defenses” I could possibly understand:

• in every society, there has to be a “pecking order”
• bullying’s not that bad — it’s just part of life
• you have to be tough in life, and learn to fight back — use it as a learning opportunity
• nerds, dweebs, and dorks “just have it coming” — they need to “get with the program” and quit being so nerdy, dweeby, and dorky
• just ignore the bullying and “consider the source” — a reaction is what the bullies want
• just suffer through it, and get past it — this too shall pass

Any thoughts from the forum?

 

[redbetta]

The whole “they need to get with the program” argument is stupid because the program is not necessarily good. Kids get bullied for all sorts of reasons and often those reasons are positive aspects of themselves, such as being studious or not being promiscuous.

EDIT: Also, I fail to see how the arguments you gave are “Catholic” arguments.

 

[Salibi]

bullying’s not that bad — it’s just part of life

Who told you it’s not that bad? A classmate of mine suffered from suicidal depression because of bullying. And no, I don’t think bullying is a part of life. Bullying is toxic behaviour and bullies often have their own internal issues that they’re projecting onto others. Society and schools should protect students from bullies and get bullies the help they need.

I think one needs to differentiate between bullying, which is a toxic behaviour intended to break or hurt another individual, and the normal assertiveness or argumentativeness that people often have and that is a part of life. People should learn to tolerate and develop a thick skin against the latter. People should not tolerate the former.

nerds, dweebs, and dorks “just have it coming” — they need to “get with the program” and quit being so nerdy, dweeby, and dorky

Errr…

This strikes me as a tad anti-intellectual, and supportive of delinquent mentalities and behaviours. Leave “nerds, dweebs, and dorks” be. Let people be themselves.

• just suffer through it, and get past it — this too shall pass

No. Absolutely not. People develop deep-seated mental illnesses from bullying. Under no circumstances should anyone “tough it out”. School is not a gulag, it’s a place where we send our children so that they can grow and learn. I expect that environment to be safe and supportive. If I find out that a principal is turning a blind eye to bullying because he wants kids to “be tough” I’m showing up to the school and punting him back to the Middle Ages.

There is no excuse for toxic, bullying behaviours. Bullying is a social ill and both bullies and their victims should be helped. Mentally healthy, well-balanced people don’t engage in bullying behaviours.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Kids get bullied for all sorts of reasons and often those reasons are positive aspects of themselves, such as being studious or not being promiscuous.

I was bullied because I was quiet. I’m not exactly sure why it would harm someone if I didn’t talk very much.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

you have to be tough in life, and learn to fight back — use it as a learning opportunity

I don’t think you can make a plausible case for bullying being “good”, but you might be able to argue that trying to stamp it out too aggressively leads to other harms, ie kids who are overly coddled and don’t learn to navigate conflicts themselves.

My personal take is that teachers and parents should be vigilant in stamping out bullying while simultaneously recognizing that not every playground tussle deserves to be treated like a four-alarm emergency.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

School shootings and suicide.

If you were constantly harassed or assaulted at work, you’d go to HR or you’d quit. Kids don’t exactly
have that option nor are their brains developed enough to handle those things…hence the school shootings and suicides.

There is no Catholic excuse for bullying, regardless of what you want to call it.

I hate bullying just as much as anyone else does. I am just trying to fathom how this was ever tolerated, and what kind of thought processes were at play (or are at play now, where bullying still exists — and it does).

And I don’t wish to dismiss anyone’s suffering, but there weren’t school shootings and suicides due to bullying 50 years ago. There definitely weren’t the school shootings (and this in a time when anyone who wanted a gun could buy one, no questions asked, you could even buy them by mail order, as Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly did), and if there were suicides due to bullying, you never heard this stated as a cause.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

With all due respect, I find the post a bit lacking in taste (not you, just the post- I think you’re a very tasteful man in general). There is no excuse for toxic, bullying behaviours. Bullying is a social ill resulting and both bullies and their victims should be helped.

To be fair, I don’t think the OP is saying he believes bullying is okay. He’s just doing a thought experiment and trying to imagine possible defenses someone might raise.

 

[Salibi]

don’t think the OP is saying he believes bullying is okay.

Yes, I realize this. This is why I made sure to tell him I wasn’t talking about him.

I guess that part of my post can be misconstrued. If @HomeschoolDad feels as if I have misrepresented him or is otherwise offended by that part of my post, I am more than happy to delete it.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

1. in every society, there has to be a “pecking order”
2. bullying’s not that bad — it’s just part of life
3. you have to be tough in life, and learn to fight back — use it as a learning opportunity
4. nerds, dweebs, and dorks “just have it coming” — they need to “get with the program” and quit being so nerdy, dweeby, and dorky
5. just ignore the bullying and “consider the source” — a reaction is what the bullies want
   *6. just suffer through it, and get past it — this too shall pass

1. Societal structure should not be a result of bullying.
2. bullying is not a part of life, it leads to suicide, isolation, mental health issues like depression, no self worth, failure, in some cases retribution
3. A child bullied day in day out, year in year out is learning something, but it is very negative , such as loss of self worth, failure to learn at school
4. no one has violence, aggression or hostility coming, ever. The terms you use are ‘othering’
5. ignoring a bully does not work.
6. Suffering through this form of mental abuse by another is something we have a right not to do.

bullying is mental and physical abuse .

 

[redbetta]

Interestingly, years ago, kids were able to fight their bullies and that often resulted in the bully leaving the kid alone or even becoming friends from the respect he has gained from his ability to fight back. Nowadays, fighting your bully will either get you or you and the bully expelled.

While I agree that schools should try to do their part to reduce bullying, I also don’t believe they should punish kids for trying to settle their issues on a mutually agreed upon manner like this.

 

[redbetta]

Honestly, as a woman, I envy guys for their ability to settle differences by trading blows. We are too darn complicated and prefer to engage in these elaborate wars of attrition which never truly come to a resolution.

 

[StudentMI]

I hate bullying just as much as anyone else does. I am just trying to fathom how this was ever tolerated, and what kind of thought processes were at play (or are at play now, where bullying still exists — and it does).

Because western culture was never sufficiently Christianized. I believe it was G.K. Chesterton who pointed out paganism was never thoroughly done away with in Europe.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Salibi:

With all due respect, I find the post a bit lacking in taste (not you, just the post- I think you’re a very tasteful man in general). There is no excuse for toxic, bullying behaviours. Bullying is a social ill resulting and both bullies and their victims should be helped.

To be fair, I don’t think the OP is saying he believes bullying is okay. He’s just doing a thought experiment and trying to imagine possible defenses someone might raise.

You are quite right. I am not proposing that these are good arguments, nor that they are morally acceptable. I am just trying to imagine what defenses the bullies might have, if they were forced to explain “now tell us just why bullying is okay — let’s hear your side of it”.

I guess that part of my post can be misconstrued. If @HomeschoolDad feels as if I have misrepresented him or is otherwise offended by that part of my post, I am more than happy to delete it.

Don’t feel like you have to delete anything. It’s a part of the discussion. I took no offense. I would only note, as I did above, that I am not endorsing bullying, nor any arguments that could possibly be made in its favor. You can construct an argument without believing in it — any attorney worth their salt has to be able to anticipate all arguments against their client, and have something to counter them with.

Interestingly, years ago, kids were able to fight their bullies and that often resulted in the bully leaving the kid alone or even becoming friends from the respect he has gained from his ability to fight back. Nowadays, fighting your bully will either get you or you and the bully expelled.

While I agree that schools should try to do their part to reduce bullying, I also don’t believe they should punish kids for trying to settle their issues on a mutually agreed upon manner like this.

That might work with individuals, but not when you have a well-organized clique. You can’t fight all of them.

The whole “they need to get with the program” argument is stupid because the program is not necessarily good. Kids get bullied for all sorts of reasons and often those reasons are positive aspects of themselves, such as being studious or not being promiscuous.

EDIT: Also, I fail to see how the arguments you gave are “Catholic” arguments.

They’re not specifically Catholic.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If I find out that a principal is turning a blind eye to bullying because he wants kids to “be tough” I’m showing up to the school and punting him back to the Middle Ages.

I knew of one principal who did precisely that, and it was fairly recently, not 50 years ago. This principal was a very polarizing figure and has since retired.

HomeschoolDad:

I hate bullying just as much as anyone else does. I am just trying to fathom how this was ever tolerated, and what kind of thought processes were at play (or are at play now, where bullying still exists — and it does).

Because western culture was never sufficiently Christianized. I believe it was G.K. Chesterton who pointed out paganism was never thoroughly done away with in Europe.

And it wasn’t. GKC was right on the money when he said that.

My "ex-"wife was always coming up with all these old Polish superstitions (“don’t shake hands through a doorway, it’s bad luck”) — I just rolled my eyes. When she mentioned the doorway thing, I blurted out an equine barnyard epithet.

 

[redbetta]

That might work with individuals, but not when you have a well-organized clique. You can’t fight all of them.

Assemble your own people to help you fight them. Or, if the bully has some sense of personal honor, they would agree to do one-on-one because of how pathetic they would look if they need back up to take on just one supposed “wimp.”

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Honestly, as a woman, I envy guys for their ability to settle differences by trading blows. We are too darn complicated and prefer to engage in these elaborate wars of attrition which never truly come to a resolution.

I got punched square in the nose once by a woman. It was not cool, not least because I couldn’t hit her back when she really deserved it.

 

[1ke]

but there weren’t school shootings and suicides due to bullying 50 years ago.

Bullying wasn’t a 24/7/365 endeavor 50 years ago.

I was bullied in 5th grade by a mean girl who didn’t like me and looking back she had some issues that were probably related to abuse at home.

It was pretty much confined to the playground, I could mostly avoid it, and my friends took up for me. It wasn’t addressed because kids just didn’t really tell the teacher or parents these things back then (because kids and adults interacted differently then), and teachers could only address what they witnessed. It was largely invisible and had little or no evidence unless it was physical assault. Playground and school bus taunting were largely undetectable by teachers.

Now a bully can access and torment on school grounds but can reach into every place else: on social media, with pictures, videos, memes, words, posts, comments on posts, texts— and it is amplified and shared repeatedly, it can be anonymous, it can go on 24/7/365, and the victim cannot get away from it, and friends often cannot stop it or intervene and are much more likely to become victims themselves if they do.

Proof is more ample, and you hear and see more about it because the relationship dynamics between kids/teacher and kids/parents are much different now.

 

[redbetta]

What I meant was settle differences with each other, not just settle differences in general. There is no way I’d try to fight a guy, but I have no problem fighting another woman.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Oh I know, your post just made me think of that night. Man, she sucked.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

That might work with individuals, but not when you have a well-organized clique. You can’t fight all of them.

Assemble your own people to help you fight them. Or, if the bully has some sense of personal honor, they would agree to do one-on-one because of how pathetic they would look if they need back up to take on just one supposed “wimp.”

Interesting idea, but assembling a “pro-me” posse to fight the “anti-me” posse is very divisive. That’s why I said, if I were a headmaster, I would make it clear on Day One that this “clique” business will no longer be tolerated, and if that’s an issue for you, call your mom and dad to come and get you, because this isn’t your school. (Public school headmasters, aside from extreme cases, admittedly don’t have this luxury.)

Now a bully can access and torment on school grounds but can reach into every place else: on social media, with pictures, videos, memes, words, posts, comments on posts— and it is amplified and shared repeatedly, it can be anonymous, it can go on 24/7/365, and the victim cannot get away from it, and friends often cannot stop it or intervene and are much more likely to become victims themselves if they do.

Proof is more ample, and you hear and see more about it because the relationship dynamics between kids/teacher and kids/parents are much different now.

Point well made.