Can a moral case be made in defense of school bullying?

[Allegra]

I tend to agree. I think one of the reasons we have seen such a influx of intensified bullying in late elementary school and middle schools is that younger elementary school students are so micro-managed in their time that they don’t have the opportunity to work out social issues on their own. If they learn for themselves that bullying is wrong when “bullying” is hiding the paste or calling someone a booger-eater, then might we not see less of older kids posting naked picture of other kids on the internet, telling them to kill themselves, and setting their backpacks on fire? As it is, young kids have very limited and very micromanaged social time at school, and very little freedom to run wild with other kids in the neighborhood. I often wonder if that cultural change has pushed the bullying issue back to the point that the kids still haven’t learned not to do by the time they are old enough to cause serious harm. In addition, the victims haven’t had much time to deal with it appropriately. Isolation and constant adult interference might be reasonable responses when a known bullying issue exists, but I doubt it’s effectiveness as a pre-emptive measure.

 

[adamhovey1988]

too darn complicated

I’m not going to make the mistake of agreeing with that, and you can’t make me

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I could possibly understand:

• in every society, there has to be a “pecking order”
• bullying’s not that bad — it’s just part of life
• you have to be tough in life, and learn to fight back — use it as a learning opportunity
• nerds, dweebs, and dorks “just have it coming” — they need to “get with the program” and quit being so nerdy, dweeby, and dorky
• just ignore the bullying and “consider the source” — a reaction is what the bullies want
• just suffer through it, and get past it — this too shall pass

Those reason’s are not justifications for bullying and defends bad behavior.

 

[adamhovey1988]

This is one of the reasons I am considering homeschooling

I’m doing it specifically because Harvard told me not to

 

[redbetta]

I didn’t think you would. You are mostly friends with girls and I am mostly friends with guys.

 

[adamhovey1988]

With the internet, bullying has gotten really bad. And reading things like 11 and 12 year olds are committing suicides on live streams Is just heartbreaking.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I am just trying to fathom how this was ever tolerated, and what kind of thought processes were at play (or are at play now, where bullying still exists — and it does).

Obviously indifference and apathy. Maybe ignorance since its easy for things to get overlooked.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Honestly, as a woman, I envy guys for their ability to settle differences by trading blows. We are too darn complicated and prefer to engage in these elaborate wars of attrition which never truly come to a resolution.

Ma’am, bullying doesn’t happen on a level playing field. Blows aren’t “traded”–they’re generally one-sided fusillades from the stronger & more malicious boy. And they “settle” nothing … other than who’s going to be the victim again next time it suits the victimizer. I understand that girls’ interactions have their own terrible problems … but I assure you there’s nothing–NOTHING–to envy here.

 

[F_Marturana]

Throughout grammar school, the rule at my kids’ school was if you sent the invites to school to distribute, they had to include everyone in the class.

If not, they had to be distributed outside of school.

That I could understand.

 

[gracepoole]

I’m in complete disbelief that this is being asked on a Catholic forum.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Interestingly, years ago, kids were able to fight their bullies and that often resulted in the bully leaving the kid alone or even becoming friends from the respect he has gained from his ability to fight back. Nowadays, fighting your bully will either get you or you and the bully expelled.

While I agree that schools should try to do their part to reduce bullying, I also don’t believe they should punish kids for trying to settle their issues on a mutually agreed upon manner like this.

Sometimes this happened. Usually it didn’t. The former outcome makes for a great sentimental story, which is why it’s so often retailed, but it doesn’t justify or outweigh all the latter situations that usually prevailed.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

I hate bullying just as much as anyone else does. I am just trying to fathom how this was ever tolerated, and what kind of thought processes were at play (or are at play now, where bullying still exists — and it does).

One thought that comes to mind: in your more traditional, non-knowledge-based societies, I’'d guess there’s a non-zero correlation between bullying behavior and rising to positions of status. Sure, maybe the sort of people who grew up to run things (including schools) weren’t automatically bullies … but they were very seldom the bullied, and were temperamentally unlikely to empathize much with the latter.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Flagged - deleted

 

[Lion_IRC]

Flagged - deleted

 

[blackforest]

Any thoughts from the forum?

I don’t think there’s anything one could say without it sounding like self-justification. And self-justification, I’ve long argued, is why we continue to sin.

 

[Servant31]

I’m talking about more overt bullying tbh, but I think you have a point. I assumed we’re talking about physical confrontation, or more overtly abusive situations, where someone would need to “fight back”. Don’t get me wrong I’m not in favor of letting it go unchecked.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Flagged - deleted

 

[TheLittleLady]

Agree. We end up now with high school or college age young adults who do not know how to work out disagreements, dislikes, etc. because they were taught saying ‘shut up’ or saving a seat for your best friend in the lunch room is bullying. When everything is bullying, there is really no such thing AS bullying. This leads the real, severe cases of true bullying being overlooked because there are kids who report bullying only to be called bullies themselves.

Parents are way too invloved with their kids disagreements or arguments. My parents most often said thing to us 4 sibs was “work it out amongst yourselves”. Yep, sometimes it came to physical fights (hair pulling was our favorite method of physical attack).

 

[Zaccheus]

I will answer in two posts because of the character limit

I realize that nowadays, schools go to great lengths to implement zero-tolerance policies on bullying, and that is probably as it should be.

Bullying should be opposed. But 'zero tolerance" at least the versions I’ve heard of, is not an effective answer. What I’ve heard is that “zero tolerance” meant the victim gets punished right along with the bully.

Nobody should have to go to school (or to work, or any other venue for that matter) and have to contend with being shamed, harassed, or made to feel “less than” either by individuals with strong personalities, or by cabals of bullies or “mean girls”.

We are in full agreement here.

In fact, if I were headmaster of a school, one of my first announcements would be “there will be no cliques — we are all here unto a single purpose, and your “clique” is the entire student body, you will all build each other up, every single one of you, and remember what we are all here for”.

You can’t end bullying by fiat. Whatever pronouncement you make from on high, bullies till gonna bully.

My son’s former school assigned seating both for classrooms and for lunch tables, and it worked beautifully.

That sounds helpful. Just allow for the possibility that a student may be trapped at a table with some bullies. Give the student a way to petition to be moved to another table.

However, as the saying goes, I would give the devil himself justice. Has anyone ever spoken up on behalf of the bullies, or been willing to say “yes, I was a bully in school, and that was a good thing because…”? Some “defenses” I could possibly understand:

Bullying is never a good thing. Never. Someone might learn a lesson by reflecting on his own misdeeds, but that doesn’t change that they were misdeeds.

• in every society, there has to be a “pecking order”

There have to be leaders and followers. There will be differences of status. That does not equal “there have to be bullies and victims”

• bullying’s not that bad

YES IT IS THAT BAD!!

— it’s just part of life

So’s cancer. So’s grinding poverty. So’s disease. So’s senility.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

The whole “you invite everyone in class to your party or you invite no one” thing is silly. Birthday parties are for the birthday boy or girl. Why force them to interact with someone they don’t care for on their special day? If your kid does not want someone at their party, there could be a good reason for it. Maybe that other kid is mean to them at school and would be mean to them on their birthday. Not to mention, the parents would have less kids to feed and entertain this way too.

It is very hurtful to children who are not invited. If there is some kind of interpersonal reason, then having the child to come, with presumably a parent in tow (in car-dependent suburbia, you don’t “just drop kids off” anymore), could be an option — engage the parent and keep an eye on matters.

What about the kids who bring unpopularity on themselves by annoying or disgusting behaviors? Are you really obligated to have lunch with the booger-eating kid?

I would advocate gentle guidance for such children, preferably by a teacher of the same gender acting as a role model.

I’m in complete disbelief that this is being asked on a Catholic forum.

Why? It’s a very practical discussion about a subject, with moral and ethical overtones, that affects many students.

HomeschoolDad:

I hate bullying just as much as anyone else does. I am just trying to fathom how this was ever tolerated, and what kind of thought processes were at play (or are at play now, where bullying still exists — and it does).

One thought that comes to mind: in your more traditional, non-knowledge-based societies, I’'d guess there’s a non-zero correlation between bullying behavior and rising to positions of status. Sure, maybe the sort of people who grew up to run things (including schools) weren’t automatically bullies … but they were very seldom the bullied, and were temperamentally unlikely to empathize much with the latter.

That is another idea I’ve entertained — that school bullies grow up to be ruthless, win-at-any-costs, take-charge (and not in a good way) adult authority figures.