Can a moral case be made in defense of school bullying?

[HomeschoolDad]

When you say you could “possibly understand” some/all of these so-called defences, you need to look a person in the eye who is actually being bullied and explain to them why;

…they are the one who “has to be” at the bottom of the pecking order.
…bullying is “just a part of life” for them
…learning to fight and being “tough in life” somehow isn’t working for them because they have low vision and poor mobility and aren’t as big as the bully.
… they never got a vote when the bullies all got together and decided who the “nerds, dweebs and dorks” are.
…“not reacting” and trying to “just ignore” the bully hasn’t had the desired effect in their experience because so many bullies keep ratcheting up the aggression until they get a reaction.
…it’s always people who aren’t being bullied telling them that they have to just “suffer thru it”

As I noted above, I’m just trying to see it from both sides — to give the bullies justice (which, by the way, I don’t think they deserve), and to give them an opportunity to explain themselves. They, of course, will not do a very good job of it, because bullying is ultimately indefensible.

From what I have observed of bullying, it falls into the following categories (I don’t intend this to be exhaustive):

• doing it to get laughs or to enhance themselves, so they imagine it, in the eyes of their peers
• because it is something “fun to do” to the underdog
• because it becomes a way to punish or torment those who are “different”
• as a means of solidarity and self-affirmation for the group (as with “mean girls”)
• because the bullied person is a “target” whom it is just too tempting not to torment
• and, as noted above, to try and get a reaction out of them, a reaction that is “fun” to observe

I think a lot of it takes place as a means of merriment or entertainment. Just off the top of my head, I would call it a case of kids who don’t have enough to do, who don’t have enough worthwhile things happening in their lives. If I were in charge, I could fix that real quick!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

My son’s former school assigned seating both for classrooms and for lunch tables , and it worked beautifully.

That sounds helpful. Just allow for the possibility that a student may be trapped at a table with some bullies. Give the student a way to petition to be moved to another table.

There was always the option for a student, or their parent, to request something like this.

 

[Zaccheus]

My second post in response to OP.

• you have to be tough in life, and learn to fight back — use it as a learning opportunity

Being bullied typically does not teach the victim to fight back. It teaches the victim that they can’t fight back. The bully is too big, or there is a gang of them.

Nor does it make the victims tougher. Getting hurt and shamed by someone you can’t escape and can’t win against makes people weaker; makes them hopeless. It does not make them tougher.

• nerds, dweebs, and dorks “just have it coming” — they need to “get with the program” and quit being so nerdy, dweeby, and dorky

In the first place who gets to label somebody else 'nerd, dork, dweeb", and why do they get to do that?

In the second place, why do they have it coming!?

• just ignore the bullying and “consider the source” — a reaction is what the bullies want.

How do you ignore a fist in the face, or a kick in the rear? How do you ignore some bigger kid stealing your lunch or tearing up your homework before you can turn it in?

• just suffer through it, and get past it — this too shall pass

You fell and broke your arm? Don’t ask to see the doctor. Just suffer through it. This too shall pass.

You caught influenza, and you’re in misery from it? No need for the doc-- just suffer through it. This too shall pass.

Somebody mugged you and stole a month’s income? No need to go to the police. Just suffer through it. This too shall pass.

Any thoughts from the forum?

Most certainly there is no such thing as a “Catholic” defense of bullying, and there is nothing Catholic about the excuses you’re listed.

Edit: I just read your post # 64.
So okay, you are just trying to understand. Good: I disagree with what you seem to be saying but you’re not trying to defend the indefensible.
I’m glad of that. God bless you .

Second edit: : Having read a bit more. I misunderstood what you were saying.
I apologize, and again God bless you.

 

[BornInMarch]

I realize that nowadays, schools go to great lengths to implement zero-tolerance policies on bullying, and that is probably as it should be.

Actually, zero tolerance policies are monstrous. Part of it is that if two students get in a fight they’re both equally punished regardless of who started it, so as a result schools punishes students for defending themselves.

It’s wrong for educators to do nothing about bullying, but it’s also wrong to act in the other direction and apply a broad policy without distinction.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Any thoughts from the forum?

To defend bullying is itself indefensible, and I sincerely hope that was not your actual intent.
Most certainly there is no such thing as a “Catholic” defense of bullying, and there is nothing Catholic about the excuses you’re listed.

I think I’ve stated this, in so many words, elsewhere in this thread, but I would never defend bullying. I am all in favor of being together in solidarity as a group, all pursuing virtue, all helping each other to pursue virtue, everybody “having each other’s back”, nobody being an outsider, nobody being “more than” or “less than” anybody else. We weren’t put on this earth to crush each other or to drag each other down. Quite the contrary.

All I was doing, was to say “okay, bullies, here are all of the reasons I can come up with, that you could possibly use to justify yourselves — and unless there’s something I’m not seeing, none of these reasons are any good at all, have you got some way of persuading me that they are?”. I’m sorry if my intent wasn’t clear.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Flagged - deleted

 

[Thom18]

Is bullying bad? The answer seems obvious. In that case, no “case” can be made “for” it.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

It’s also a power trip for the bully.

You don’t usually see attractive, popular and socially savvy kids get bullied.

You don’t see a kid bully somebody higher in the pecking order than themselves.

A bully will attack a lower-status kid.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Yes, I understand.
And everyone here should realise that you aren’t offering those arguments.
You yourself don’t support bullying.

No, as noted above, I certainly don’t.

 

[redbetta]

It is very hurtful to children who are not invited. If there is some kind of interpersonal reason, then having the child to come, with presumably a parent in tow (in car-dependent suburbia, you don’t “just drop kids off” anymore), could be an option — engage the parent and keep an eye on matters.

Children need to learn that birthdays are not just events to go and have fun. They are celebrations for a particular person and, if that person does not want them there, they need to learn respect that. Maybe reflect on why that person might not want them there or possibly couldn’t have them there (maybe the parents put a limit on the number of guests they could have). Either way, nobody is entitled to go to someone else’s party.

If my kid was sad they did not get invited to something, I would suggest they have a party of their own or do something else fun.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

I’m in complete disbelief that this is being asked on a Catholic forum.

These are not remotely equal topics but permit me to offer hyperbole to make a point. The question at the center of this thread is a bit like asking, “Can a Catholic case be made in defense of genocide?” I’ve no idea why a Catholic, in particular, would want to find and/or understand justifications for something that is objectively evil. And bullying is objectively evil.

 

[StudentMI]

I’m in complete disbelief that this is being asked on a Catholic forum.

I long ago became anesthetized to this forum.

 

[Allegra]

Hopefully Redbetta will forgive me if I’m mispeaking for her, but I think what she may be trying to express is that boys have a more level playing field because standing up for yourself is seen more as an acceptable or even desirable trait in boys, whereas its more frequently frowned on in females and girl bullies tend to use this to their advantage. If you stand up to social bullying as a girl, you are likely to be labelled as “petty” or “over-emotional”. I would argue that increasingly, this is the situation for boys as well in school settings. Physical retaliation for bullying is often punished as severely or even more severely than the initial bullying. Many responsible adults would truly prefer if bullying victims would just ignore the bullying so they didn’t have to do the paperwork.

 

[LilyM]

LumineDiei:

School shootings and suicide.

If you were constantly harassed or assaulted at work, you’d go to HR or you’d quit. Kids don’t exactly
have that option nor are their brains developed enough to handle those things…hence the school shootings and suicides.

There is no Catholic excuse for bullying, regardless of what you want to call it.

I hate bullying just as much as anyone else does. I am just trying to fathom how this was ever tolerated, and what kind of thought processes were at play (or are at play now, where bullying still exists — and it does).

And I don’t wish to dismiss anyone’s suffering, but there weren’t school shootings and suicides due to bullying 50 years ago. There definitely weren’t the school shootings (and this in a time when anyone who wanted a gun could buy one, no questions asked, you could even buy them by mail order, as Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly did), and if there were suicides due to bullying, you never heard this stated as a cause.

For starters back in the day there were more options for children to get out of sxhool early and escape the bullying. It was easier to get by in life with homeschooling or just less formal schooling.

For that matter, given that at least a percentage of bullies tend to pick on others because they themselves are having issues fitting in and succeeding in school,.then leaving early was more.of an option for those who wpuld otherwise become.bulliea.as well.

 

[Allegra]

It’s a little more complicated than that. If it was just a case of one kid only inviting their favorite friends or not inviting a kid who they didn’t get along with, then you would be right. However, teachers frequently see a child not being invited to any birthday parties, partially because the “queen bee” of the class told them not to. It’s insane the amount of social leverage even pre-schoolers get with inviting or not inviting a kid to a party. That being said, a school can’t really tell you who you must invite some place, but they CAN tell you not to send invitations to school to hand out to all the kids except one, or to make a big deal announcing to the class who is invited and who isn’t, or bringing photographs to school to brag about, or any other other meanness-es that kids and their parents attempt.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Flagged - deleted

 

[redbetta]

In my experience, it is not that girls are not allowed to stand up for themselves, but the way that girls are allowed to stand up for themselves really does not have any teeth and girl bullies know that. Meanwhile, guys live with the knowledge that any conflict with another guy could potentially get physical. This makes standing up for yourself as a girl really only meaningful in a symbolic way for yourself. There is really nothing you can do to the bully to send a message that you will have none of that.

 

[gracepoole]

You do know what a rhetorical question is, right?

Never heard of that before.

gracepoole:

And bullying is objectively evil.

Do you know how many atheists use this line of argument when they accuse God of bullying/evil?

I await with bated breath a moral justification for bullying, genocide, or both.

 

[Salibi]

Do you know how many atheists use this line of argument when they accuse God of bullying/evil?

And so what? Does that make bullying acceptable?

 

[BT3241]

School bully picked on me and I gave him a beating he will never forget , he never picked on anyone again I made sure. I finished it.
Thing about bully’s sooner later they get whats coming to them someone will come along and beat their face in.
Like me.