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BT3241
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He never did it again to anyone at school after me. I finished school with him. So yes it did stop him he changed.
Can a moral case be made in defense of school bullying?
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Allegra
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We don’t typically have 30 kids in an elementary school class (Thank you, Lord!). It’s usually closer to 20 and we’ve had kids uninvite a student they invited (usually without their own parents knowing) because another kid said they would do thus and so if they did invite them.
OK, I’ll buy that, that’s reasonable. Not all kids are equally friendly with all other kids in the class. Invite only the closest friends, or as I said, maybe all the boys or girls as the case may be. I had tunnel vision and was only thinking of one or two being left out, and how hurtful that would be.
Really? I was of the impression that all-female schools had very high academic standards. In any case, there was an awareness “back in the day” that males and females learn differently. Education nowadays seems to be female-oriented by default, with boys suffering as a result. Boys don’t want to sit still all day and read books. I recognize this in my son, and there are times when we say it’s a nice day outside, let’s have PE class now instead. Homeschooling allows that kind of liberty.HomeschoolDad:
Yeah, we saw how well that worked out for women! Very few female only schools did a good job and educated women equally as well as men!
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Pattylt
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My daughters class has 27! What you describe is terrible. I’m sure it happens and it shouldn’t. It’s just that we’ve never had a policy where every kid has to be invited to a private party. My goodness, add in cousins and other friends…it would be a nightmare!
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Pattylt
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They do now. But 100 years ago…they turned out seamstresses and poetry readers. Women had to fight or learn on their own to get educated in the sciences and higher mathematics. I agree that now many all female schools do an excellent job but we had to come a long way to get it.
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Allegra
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Our policy is that if you aren’t inviting everyone, you can’t do the inviting at school.
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VonDerTann
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This is a great, great thread. Thanks HSDad!
IMHO bullying is always indefensible. Some thoughts:
IMHO bullying is always indefensible. Some thoughts:
- The children being bullied are just that: children. IMHO they’re not really apt to learn lessons, because they’re children, not little adults.
- The concept that it might be defensible makes a number of assumptions, i.e., “the bully is usually bullied himself,” etc. Much like the Henry Bowers character in the “It” stories, sometimes the bully isn’t bullied; maybe he’s a sociopath or just a really bad person. Accepting his bulling is a way to have him kill someone some day.
- Another assumption is “ignore the bully and he’ll stop.” No, what if he doesn’t, but just responds to being ignored by amping up the bullying, till the victim really gets badly hurt?
- I think bullying causes really deep, deep scars we never see. To me, the worst thing you can do to anyone is rob a person - particularly a child - of their innocence and I think some bullies do that. That’s why IMHO bullying is never defensible.
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Servant31
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I was definitely one of the 3-5 out 30 not invited. And let’s be honest here. In 6 th grade when your not invited to one, everyone else will follow suit.
And let’s again be honest. Adults aren’t too much better. When I was in college it was pretty unreal how teachers and other students would stop interacting with you if you were shamed once.
These days I almost laugh about it… well the crowd hates me today…I must be either really right or really wrong… meh.
And let’s again be honest. Adults aren’t too much better. When I was in college it was pretty unreal how teachers and other students would stop interacting with you if you were shamed once.
These days I almost laugh about it… well the crowd hates me today…I must be either really right or really wrong… meh.
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zuela13
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may b this is not exactly the topic, but i wanna share this with u anyway… hope i didn`t border u 
Greetz from Switzerland…
Struggling between being a ‘super-mum
What are your experiences:question:
i also have a link, but can’t posted in the comments…
Greetz from Switzerland…Struggling between being a ‘super-mum
, 'super-dad', super-employee’ and 'super-businesspartner` at #homeoffice What are your experiences:question:i also have a link, but can’t posted in the comments…
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Zaccheus
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Hm, possibly. But here’s a question. Are you talking about a case in which a child was not invited to this one party (but was invited to the last one and likely will be invited to the next one), or in which a child is always excluded from the guest list-- being singled out as unwelcome at any party?
…? … I intend no disrespect, sir–but where did you get that idea?
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NevermoreLenore
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The desire is to understand why others might justify such behaviour. The idea isn’t to “understand justifications for something that is objectively evil” for the sake of knowledge, but for the sake of understanding the reasons behind the bully’s behaviour. No one is saying those reasons are right. And whilst I agree that bullying is wrong, there are mitigating circumstances. For example, a child is being savagely abused at home and his/her manner of coping is to act in the same manner to others. It isn’t right, but telling the kid to stop because it’s bad is ineffectual and, in the case of parental abuse, psychologically confusing for a child. So a bully says “she deserves it”; ask, “why?”; “because she’s ugly and weak”; “why is it bad to be ‘ugly and weak’? Is it her fault?”…eventually you may suss out what root ‘justification’ undergirds the bullying behaviour.
There are many who dislike or misunderstand the purpose of these thought experiments and discussions, but many people are trying to understand the other side’s perspective. Telling someone who bullies “bullying is objectively evil, don’t do it” is ineffective toward behavioural, and more importantly, heart change. Maybe because I’m a psychologist, but I know most people need to be heard and understood, even (especially?) if they’re wrong, before they can and/or are willing to change. I’ve never won anyone over by telling them what is right, even when truth is on my side. I’ve won over many by listening and seeking to understand from where they derive their beliefs. When people know they are heard and understood, they are vastly more open to seeing God’s Truth and changing their nefarious behaviours.
I say this as a person who was mercilessly bullied by a girl in my neighbourhood from preschool to high school graduation. Years later she became a Christian (evangelical) and apologised, and I have forgiven her, but the scars will always remain. Her reason for bullying me? Jealousy. I’m not sure what about me was enviable. The other thing she said was that I behaved the way she knew she should be behaving (being nice to people, honest). This girl made my life miserable, and whilst I don’t really understand her reasons, far be it from me to withhold forgiveness. I hope for mercy for my own sin.
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gracepoole
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Who said anything about withholding forgiveness?
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NevermoreLenore
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No one, including me–I said I did not withhold forgiveness. Why, out of everything I wrote, did that stick out? I accused no one of withholding forgiveness. I was relaying a personal experience.
Edit: clarity
Edit: clarity
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gracepoole
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Okay…
As someone who has studied perpetrators of genocide for a living, I do believe in the value of such study. However, this sort of study isn’t undertaken in order to persuade perpetrators to become moral — largely because that’s now how it works. We’re speaking here of communal systems that would have to shift radically to eliminate the natural slide toward being a perpetrator, not some one-on-one intervention. Or at least that’s what should be discussed as it’s the only way to get at root causes.
As someone who has studied perpetrators of genocide for a living, I do believe in the value of such study. However, this sort of study isn’t undertaken in order to persuade perpetrators to become moral — largely because that’s now how it works. We’re speaking here of communal systems that would have to shift radically to eliminate the natural slide toward being a perpetrator, not some one-on-one intervention. Or at least that’s what should be discussed as it’s the only way to get at root causes.
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neophyte
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My dad always said that when you’re surrounded by bullies, pick the biggest one, hit him as hard as you can right between the eyes, and run like hell. I was too timid to do it, and in retrospect I think was great advice.
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NevermoreLenore
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Can you please expand upon these thoughts? I’m unsure of what point you’re making but I’d like to understand. I don’t think the OP specified whether the thought experiment’s purpose was to address communal systems or one on one intervention to the exclusion of the other. As a psychologist, I deal in the one on one realm; I do groups and psychoeducation so I could probably stretch it to community based. I have worked with court ordered perps as well as abuse victims. Clearly your expertise is different than mine and your research sounds fascinating. If you have the time or inclination, I’d love to hear more.
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Allegra
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In my experience, most bullying comes from a place of jealousy or wanting to “keep em in their place.” I have a student currently that is a relentless bully and he literally believes he was put on this earth to make sure that other people “don’t think they’re all that.” It’s not even directed at a specific student. If any kid answers a question correctly in class, he has to mutter something like “that was easy” or “duh”, and that’s with a teacher watching. When a teacher isn’t within earshot, he’s absolutely cruel to anyone he perceives might be admired or praised for anything, which means he isn’t really allowed out of a teacher’s earshot. He’s been banned from the bus. His parents don’t see anything wrong with his behavior and think everyone else is just “too sensitive”, but that isn’t surprising because they are the ones who taught him the behavior in the first place as they treat all their kids the same way. The kid has been having weekly meetings with the counselor and is at the point where he realizes this behavior is against the rules, but he still doesn’t get that it’s wrong. In his mind, those other kids are in the wrong for thinking they’re so great when they’re not.
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NevermoreLenore
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Goodness. His parents have done him no favours. I hope the counseling is effective, but I know as well as anyone that a person only gets from counseling what s/he put into it.
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VonDerTann
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Very unfortunate. Unfortunately I have seen the kid you describe, plus 20-30 years, many times over: They basically fight with EVERYONE.
–They invariably work by themselves - whether as contractors; solo practitioner lawyers; consultants, etc., because they cannot keep partners. They just don’t do well in groups, because no one can stand them.
–They are hell to work for or engage in any business relationship with: They fire secretaries; find fault with the plumber; leave lousy reviews on business websites; constantly demand their money back from restaurants and hotels, etc.
–The are invariably are divorced. No one can live with them, and if they find someone who will tolerate them, they invariably divorce their spouse no matter how tolerant the spouse is. If they have kids, the kids move far away and become distant.
In short, they cause untold human misery: Sometimes on a small scale, sometimes on a large one. In short, they wind up making life worse for essentially everyone around them.
–They invariably work by themselves - whether as contractors; solo practitioner lawyers; consultants, etc., because they cannot keep partners. They just don’t do well in groups, because no one can stand them.
–They are hell to work for or engage in any business relationship with: They fire secretaries; find fault with the plumber; leave lousy reviews on business websites; constantly demand their money back from restaurants and hotels, etc.
–The are invariably are divorced. No one can live with them, and if they find someone who will tolerate them, they invariably divorce their spouse no matter how tolerant the spouse is. If they have kids, the kids move far away and become distant.
In short, they cause untold human misery: Sometimes on a small scale, sometimes on a large one. In short, they wind up making life worse for essentially everyone around them.
I would mandate in-school counseling (such as the school district’s resident psychologist or social worker), and possibly counseling outside of school , for all bullies. If that doesn’t work, and if the bullying rises to a certain level, I would even advocate expulsion, or assign the student to a special school for those with behavioral problems — let the bully ponder that!
But isn’t throwing the first punch — as opposed to defending oneself when physically assaulted — contrary to the Gospel teaching of “turn the other cheek”?HomeschoolDad:
My dad always said that when you’re surrounded by bullies, pick the biggest one, hit him as hard as you can right between the eyes, and run like hell. I was too timid to do it, and in retrospect I think was great advice.
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